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Topic: More Needless Gun Murders, Wild West Attitude In US< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 9:19 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Only in America can someone be justified for shooting kids trying to steal their television!

From Home Owners Stops Home Invaders Dead :

He is not expected to be charged because North Carolina is considered a strong “castle law” state – where a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force against anyone breaking into his home or even car. He is not required to retreat.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ May 10 2013, 7:19 am)
QUOTE
Only in America can someone be justified for shooting kids trying to steal their television!

From Home Owners Stops Home Invaders Dead :

He is not expected to be charged because North Carolina is considered a strong “castle law” state – where a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force against anyone breaking into his home or even car. He is not required to retreat.

In an increasingly common crime around the country, especially in rural areas near cities, the perpetrators rush in, maybe beat up the occupants, take what they came for and get out. Maybe kill someone. Maybe not.

1.  The home owner didn't know they were "just going to steal his TV"....all he knew was that a group of armed men had just broken into his house.

2.  They were in their 20s.....not exactly "kids"

I find it interesting that you chose what many would consider a textbook case of justifiable self-defense to prove your point.

FAIL
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

LB,

Bass has proven to be quite sarcastic at times.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't believe in shooting thieves who are "getting away".  If someone breaks into your house, grabs your wallet, then is running out the door, then there is no justification for using a firearm.

However, up to that point you have every reason to fear for your life and well being, and once you've made a reasonable determination that there is such a risk, it seems to me that use of firearm for self defense is appropriate - whether the perps are kids or women or cripples.  

But that doesn't mean you can blast away at someone knocking at your door at 1 am.  

The linked article, however seems to be written by a guy with negrophobiia.  It doesn't change the facts, but it reminds of a woman who told me many years ago that what she feared most was being killed by a black man.  When I asked if she thought being killed by a white man would be less stressful she said "of course."
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Great Post NG.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:01 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
In an increasingly common crime around the country, especially in rural areas near cities, the perpetrators rush in, maybe beat up the occupants, take what they came for and get out. Maybe kill someone. Maybe not.


You obviously missed that part.

QUOTE
If someone breaks into your house, grabs your wallet, then is running out the door, then there is no justification for using a firearm.

The perpetrator would be making the decision his life was worth less than the wallet, not the homeowner.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sounds like a good shoot to me with the details provided.  If I woke up or walked in to 3 or 4 uninvited folk in my house I would have made the same call.  They were armed and it is unknown by the story who fired first.  It doesn’t really matter.  I would not shoot someone over stuff but if their intentions are unknown I would not hesitate.  The perpetrators chose their career path and hopefully considered the possible outcome of their actions.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ May 10 2013, 8:23 am)
QUOTE
LB,

Bass has proven to be quite sarcastic at times.

Sarcasm implies a sense of humor.

IMHO Bass is just as much a nutcase as the guy stockpiling ammo in his bomb shelter and lining his baseball cap with aluminum foil.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ May 10 2013, 7:37 am)
QUOTE
I don't believe in shooting thieves who are "getting away".  If someone breaks into your house, grabs your wallet, then is running out the door, then there is no justification for using a firearm.

However, up to that point you have every reason to fear for your life and well being, and once you've made a reasonable determination that there is such a risk, it seems to me that use of firearm for self defense is appropriate

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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 8:01 am)
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The perpetrator would be making the decision his life was worth less than the wallet, not the homeowner.

Total BS and an utterly irresponsible thought.

The one with his finger on the trigger is always the one that makes the decision of what a life is worth.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ May 10 2013, 9:19 am)
QUOTE
Only in America can someone be justified for shooting kids trying to steal their television!

From Home Owners Stops Home Invaders Dead :

He is not expected to be charged because North Carolina is considered a strong “castle law” state – where a homeowner is allowed to use deadly force against anyone breaking into his home or even car. He is not required to retreat.

I do like the Travon Martin spin the OP put in his description.  Harmless little children just looking for scraps of food were brutally gunned down by crazed gun weilding landgrabber could have worked also.  I heard the Dear Leader said that if he had sons they could look like the perps in this story also.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 12:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Travon Martin spin?
Travon Martin was not killed during a home invasion robbery.  
To even mention the two incidents in the same breath is absurd.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 12:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I was more refering to the way Martin is portrayed in the media.  Seen any picture of him more recent to the time he was shot?  I love the little boy 12 year old picture the media flashes around trying to drag up sympathy.  OP is using similar tactics.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ May 10 2013, 9:35 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 8:01 am)
QUOTE
The perpetrator would be making the decision his life was worth less than the wallet, not the homeowner.

Total BS and an utterly irresponsible thought.

The one with his finger on the trigger is always the one that makes the decision of what a life is worth.

So the homeowner would still track down and shoot someone who didn't come near his house or try break into it?

That wallet may contain information that a thief could use to financially destroy the victim. The possibility of lifelong ruin does justify shooting the perpetrator.

Anytime someone chooses to violate the law, they've made the decision that whatever risk is involved is worth the consequences. If that means the possibility of being shot for stealing a wallet, they're the one who made the call.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 2:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So in the  Montanalonewolf world ALL violations of law are death penalty crimes?

You must be the world's slowest car driver.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In the UK, the home owner would have likely been jailed for the murders. That deters others from shooting burglars - Tony Martin, Jailed For Shooting Burglar .

I find it hard to believe that so many feel that the murders are justified.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lamebeaver
QUOTE
Bass is just as much a nutcase


Name calling does not help get your point across. In fact, it distracts from your point.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 5:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ May 10 2013, 2:22 pm)
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In the UK, the home owner would have likely been jailed for the murders. That deters others from shooting burglars - Tony Martin, Jailed For Shooting Burglar .

I find it hard to believe that so many feel that the murders are justified.

Defending oneself from armed intruders in your own home in the middle of the night isn't "murder".

If they were out on his front lawn fleeing: different story. But that's not what appears to be the case and until the details show otherwise (could he and whoever else was in the home have had a reasonable expectation they could escape without physical harm? Would be one consideration for me) what I see is self-defense.

How does shooting armed criminals that have broken into your home in the middle of the night consititute "murder" by your judgement? Go ahead make the case.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 5:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 11:36 am)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ May 10 2013, 9:35 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 8:01 am)
QUOTE
The perpetrator would be making the decision his life was worth less than the wallet, not the homeowner.

Total BS and an utterly irresponsible thought.

The one with his finger on the trigger is always the one that makes the decision of what a life is worth.

So the homeowner would still track down and shoot someone who didn't come near his house or try break into it?

That wallet may contain information that a thief could use to financially destroy the victim. The possibility of lifelong ruin does justify shooting the perpetrator.

Anytime someone chooses to violate the law, they've made the decision that whatever risk is involved is worth the consequences. If that means the possibility of being shot for stealing a wallet, they're the one who made the call.

No matter how you want to try and twist it, the person who chooses to pull the trigger will ALWAYS be responsible for that choice.  Even when that choice is completely justifiable.

To try and dodge that fact by shifting that responsibility to someone else is irresponsible IMO.

Hey, if I felt that my life was truly threatened, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger to defend myself.  But I'm willing to accept the responsibility that is was MY choice to do so, not someone else's.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 5:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

High_Sierra_Fan
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How does shooting armed criminals that have broken into your home in the middle of the night consititute "murder" by your judgement? Go ahead make the case.


From Law.com :

the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority

OK - North Carolina's barbaric law may have given him legal excuse.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 8:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Legal authority for self defense is rather usual. No one is legally obligated to suffer an armed assault.

To which the paragraph of my post you edited out applies in my opinion.

"If they were out on his front lawn fleeing: different story. But that's not what appears to be the case and until the details show otherwise (could he and whoever else was in the home have had a reasonable expectation they could escape without physical harm? Would be one consideration for me) what I see is self-defense"
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 8:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some interesting speculation here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3007710/posts

Bullet hole in front door:

http://www.inquisitr.com/618090....meowner

I am guessing that means the homeowner shot thru his own door, killing those trying to break in. (This might be why he would need the castle rule/law?)

As those who speculate in the first thread, I suspect the owner must have been awake, or awoken early by dogs etc.

=========

Otherwise , a home owner asleep, and out gunned might be better off unarmed??

Still this does make the case for home defense.  These guys were convicted felons which the system failed the first time to rehabilitate , leaving citizens to fend for themselves.  Of course if the system works most of the time, then this would just be an exception, and being able to defend one self in this manner might be an exception as well.  And then one would have to balance this with deaths by having magazines with higher capacity etc., etc.,


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 8:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ May 10 2013, 12:52 pm)
QUOTE
So in the  Montanalonewolf world ALL violations of law are death penalty crimes?

I didn't even remotely imply that.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
I find it hard to believe that so many feel that the murders are justified.

Killing an armed intruder who has violently entered one's home isn't even close to murder.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 9:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
No matter how you want to try and twist it, the person who chooses to pull the trigger will ALWAYS be responsible for that choice.  Even when that choice is completely justifiable.

I would be responsible for pulling the trigger but the perpetrator is entirely responsible for the initial decision that led to that pull.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 9:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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OK - North Carolina's barbaric law may have given him legal excuse.

How is a law that allows a person to use deadly force in defense of their own life barbaric?

It's barbaric to have laws that criminally punish someone for doing so.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 6:05 pm)
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I would be responsible for pulling the trigger...

That we can agree on.
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(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I find it hard to believe that so many feel that the murders are justified.

Killing an armed intruder who has violently entered one's home isn't even close to murder.

What if he isn't armed?, and he entered through an unlocked door?, and he snatched your clock radio?, and he's heading back out the same door he came in?
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ May 10 2013, 8:09 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I find it hard to believe that so many feel that the murders are justified.

Killing an armed intruder who has violently entered one's home isn't even close to murder.

What if he isn't armed?, and he entered through an unlocked door?, and he snatched your clock radio?, and he's heading back out the same door he came in?

In the state of Montana, an unknown person entering an occupied dwelling uninvited can legally be presumed to present a lethal threat even if unarmed. An unlocked or even an open door has no bearing on it. IOW, I am not required by law to ascertain intent before defending my home.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 10:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ May 10 2013, 8:06 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ May 10 2013, 6:05 pm)
QUOTE
I would be responsible for pulling the trigger...

That we can agree on.

Some of you are implying that someone entering a home is in no way responsible for what results from that illegal entry.

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