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Topic: 13 Benghazis That Occurred on Bush’s Watch< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: May 10 2013, 11:10 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You would think they could be a litte more sane in their hate for Obama, wouldn't you??  Their brains must be totally fried from contemplating how many older white guys are dying every day now, and no tea hatters to replace them!!  LOL

The Benghazi attacks (the consulate and the CIA compound) are absolutely not unprecedented even though they’re being treated that way by Republicans who are deliberately ignoring anything that happened prior to Inauguration Day, January 20, 2009.

January 22, 2002. Calcutta, India. Gunmen associated with Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami attack the U.S. Consulate. Five people are killed.

June 14, 2002. Karachi, Pakistan. Suicide bomber connected with al-Qaida attacks the U.S. Consulate, killing 12 and injuring 51.

October 12, 2002. Denpasar, Indonesia. U.S. diplomatic offices bombed as part of a string of “Bali Bombings.” No fatalities.

February 28, 2003. Islamabad, Pakistan. Several gunmen fire upon the U.S. Embassy. Two people are killed.

May 12, 2003. Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Armed al-Qaida terrorists storm the diplomatic compound killing 36 people including nine Americans. The assailants committed suicide by detonating a truck bomb.

July 30, 2004. Tashkent, Uzbekistan. A suicide bomber from the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan attacks the U.S. Embassy, killing two people.

December 6, 2004. Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Al-Qaida terrorists storm the U.S. Consulate and occupy the perimeter wall. Nine people are killed.

March 2, 2006. Karachi, Pakistan again. Suicide bomber attacks the U.S. Consulate killing four people, including U.S. diplomat David Foy who was directly targeted by the attackers. (I wonder if Lindsey Graham or Fox News would even recognize the name “David Foy.” This is the third Karachi terrorist attack in four years on what’s considered American soil.)

September 12, 2006. Damascus, Syria. Four armed gunmen shouting “Allahu akbar” storm the U.S. Embassy using grenades, automatic weapons, a car bomb and a truck bomb. Four people are killed, 13 are wounded.

January 12, 2007. Athens, Greece. Members of a Greek terrorist group called the Revolutionary Struggle fire a rocket-propelled grenade at the U.S. Embassy. No fatalities.

March 18, 2008. Sana’a, Yemen. Members of the al-Qaida-linked Islamic Jihad of Yemen fire a mortar at the U.S. Embassy. The shot misses the embassy, but hits nearby school killing two.

July 9, 2008. Istanbul, Turkey. Four armed terrorists attack the U.S. Consulate. Six people are killed.

September 17, 2008. Sana’a, Yemen. Terrorists dressed as military officials attack the U.S. Embassy with an arsenal of weapons including RPGs and detonate two car bombs. Sixteen people are killed, including an American student and her husband (they had been married for three weeks when the attack occurred). This is the second attack on this embassy in seven months.

A few observations about this timeline. My initial list was quoted from an article on the Daily Kos which actually contained several errors and only 11 attacks (the above timeline contains all 13 attacks). Also, my list above doesn’t include the numerous and fatal attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad during the Iraq war — a war that was vocally supported by Lindsey Graham, John McCain and Fox News Channel.


http://thedailybanter.com/2013....ox-news


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 12:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I feel justified in saying this due to the fact that I was an ignorant high schooler during most of the war and could of cared less at the time about politics, but after seeing the hatred for Bush after the "WMD's" lie came to light, why do people not hold this administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?  I fail to understand the logic of this whole debacle since at the end of the day "we the people" seem to just want a reason to hate someone, its troubling to say the least.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As far as Benghazis goes, the idea that the right-wing could think they could be in any position
to make a big deal about this is just mind boggling. There were numerous warning from the CIA
to Bush starting in the spring of 2001 all the way to the infamous "Bin Ladin Determined To Strike
in US" memo on August 6th, 2001 leading up to 911 which killed not 4 people but around 750 times
more(3000) and not in some foreign country but here in the US. Did Republicans blame the Bush administration
for 911 the way they are blaming the Obama administation for Benghazi attacks? Of course not. Democrats
never blamed Bush for 911 (some of the very wacky fringe on the left which had no place in the Democratic party)
or used it to politically in the same way todays Republicans are using this issue against the Obama
administration.  If Gore would have been president during 911 would today's Republicans come together
with Democrats or would they have used it politically within months or even weeks to take down Gore?
I have my doubts/

Oh ya there was also the Beirut Marine Barracks bombing in 1983 that killed over 240 Americans.  Did
Republicans blame Reagan? Of course not.  Nor did Democrats blame Reagan.


Republicans and Democrats simply are NOT in the same category in terms of blatant sickening cynical
politicization.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

why do people not hold this administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?


Because this administration hasn't commited even close to the same transgressions the Bush administraions has.  
If you're going to say they have then list them and understand that people on this forum are very aware what
the propaganda is coming out of the right-wing echo machine such as FOX "news" so if you're going to site
something be sure it really is something that is based on solid facts and not propagagnad

But having that the level of hatred against the Obama administration but the is more intense and started
from the beginning of Obama's administraion unlike the hate directed at Bush which really didn't get going until
the Iraq war.  Frankly the vast majority of those who suffer from Obama Derangement Syndrome have been manipulated
by the right-wing entertainment complex(Fox, right-wing radio, etc..). The ultimate example of this is how so many
right-wing Republicans were stunned when Obama won the 2012 because they were lead to believe by right-wing pollster
propagandists, such as the laughable Dick Morris who would regularly appear on Fox, telling their sheep that Romney
would win easily.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I fail to understand the logic of this whole debacle since at the end of the day "we the people" seem to just
want a reason to hate someone, its troubling to say the least.


There was a lot of hate int the previous decade against Clinton inspired by the same kind of right-wing echo machine
that is inspiring the current crop of right-wing flame throwers.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 2:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ May 11 2013, 1:07 am)
QUOTE
Cmazzac said
QUOTE

why do people not hold this administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?


Because this administration hasn't commited even close to the same transgressions the Bush administraions has.  
If you're going to say they have then list them and understand that people on this forum are very aware what
the propaganda is coming out of the right-wing echo machine such as FOX "news" so if you're going to site
something be sure it really is something that is based on solid facts and not propagagnad

But having that the level of hatred against the Obama administration but the is more intense and started
from the beginning of Obama's administraion unlike the hate directed at Bush which really didn't get going until
the Iraq war.  Frankly the vast majority of those who suffer from Obama Derangement Syndrome have been manipulated
by the right-wing entertainment complex(Fox, right-wing radio, etc..). The ultimate example of this is how so many
right-wing Republicans were stunned when Obama won the 2012 because they were lead to believe by right-wing pollster
propagandists, such as the laughable Dick Morris who would regularly appear on Fox, telling their sheep that Romney
would win easily.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I fail to understand the logic of this whole debacle since at the end of the day "we the people" seem to just
want a reason to hate someone, its troubling to say the least.


There was a lot of hate int the previous decade against Clinton inspired by the same kind of right-wing echo machine
that is inspiring the current crop of right-wing flame throwers.

To answer your question of transgression comparisons between the last two administration would defeat the purpose of my point...  I am not here to say who is right and who is wrong because I generally just see mostly wrong in politics.  I just asked a question that doesn't often get an adequate answer.  I guess my point wasn't well received and that's ok.  It would appear that contention always wins these conversations.  All I am saying is it doesn't matter if your actions cause the murder of 1 person or 100 in my eyes, and to be more lax about ones wrong doings because others before them were more atrocious seems ignorant to me...  I can understand why you would be upset with people who excuse one of their owns failures while exploiting say one of yours but how is returning the favor in any way righteous?  I don't like being lied to and I don't like to lie to people.  I could only imagine having someone like the president lie straight to my face while shaking my hand in regards to my sons/daughters/spouses death for strictly political reasons. This pretty much sums up my feelings about things.  For the record we know Bush and Obama are guilty in this matter.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 4:01 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

To answer your question of transgression comparisons between the last two administration would defeat the purpose of my point...


No, it would not defeat the purpose since your post directly compared them when you said why do people not hold this
administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?
.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I am not here to say who is right and who is wrong because I generally just see mostly wrong in politics.


There is a lot I see wrong in politics one of which are false equivalences.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I guess my point wasn't well received and that's ok.  It would appear that contention always wins these conversations.  
All I am saying is it doesn't matter if your actions cause the murder of 1 person or 100 in my eyes, and to be more
lax about ones wrong doings because others before them were more atrocious seems ignorant to me.


whose being "more lax about ones wrong doings" for the specific reason you allege which is because others before them
were more atrocious seems ignorant to me.
? Ignorance is ignoring facts? Whose ignoring facts? When you make that
allegation do you have specific facts you base that statement on? If not then wouldn't that be ignorance?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I can understand why you would be upset with people who excuse one of their owns failures while exploiting say one of yours
but how is returning the favor in any way righteous?


How do you know I'm "returning the favor"? That would imply that the motivation for my post isn't based on facts
and is based on something else. How do you know that?

Do you have any specific facts of which you base that statement or are you just assuming certain things?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I don't like being lied to and I don't like to lie to people.  I could only imagine having someone like the president lie
straight to my face while shaking my hand in regards to my sons/daughters/spouses death for strictly political reasons.
This pretty much sums up my feelings about things.  For the record we know Bush and Obama are guilty in this matter.


You haven't mentioned any specific facts at all but are speaking in generalities. What lies are you referring to?
How are Obama and Bush comparable? Are you one of those that operate on the ignorant narrative that "both sides
do it equally" which lends itself to numerous false equivalences?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 5:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

[quote=Dennis The Menace,May 11 2013, 4:01 am]Cmazzac said
QUOTE

To answer your question of transgression comparisons between the last two administration would defeat the purpose of my point...


No, it would not defeat the purpose since your post directly compared them when you said why do people not hold this
administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?
.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I am not here to say who is right and who is wrong because I generally just see mostly wrong in politics.


There is a lot I see wrong in politics one of which are false equivalences.

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I guess my point wasn't well received and that's ok.  It would appear that contention always wins these conversations.  
All I am saying is it doesn't matter if your actions cause the murder of 1 person or 100 in my eyes, and to be more
lax about ones wrong doings because others before them were more atrocious seems ignorant to me.


whose being "more lax about ones wrong doings" for the specific reason you allege which is because others before them
were more atrocious seems ignorant to me.
? Ignorance is ignoring facts? Whose ignoring facts? When you make that
allegation do you have specific facts you base that statement on? If not then wouldn't that be ignorance?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I can understand why you would be upset with people who excuse one of their owns failures while exploiting say one of yours
but how is returning the favor in any way righteous?


How do you know I'm "returning the favor"? That would imply that the motivation for my post isn't based on facts
and is based on something else. How do you know that?

Do you have any specific facts of which you base that statement or are you just assuming certain things?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I don't like being lied to and I don't like to lie to people.  I could only imagine having someone like the president lie
straight to my face while shaking my hand in regards to my sons/daughters/spouses death for strictly political reasons.
This pretty much sums up my feelings about things.  For the record we know Bush and Obama are guilty in this matter.
[/quot

You haven't mentioned any specific facts at all but are speaking in generalities. What lies are you referring to?
How are Obama and Bush comparable? Are you one of those that operate on the ignorant narrative that "both sides
do it equally" which lends itself to numerous false equivalences?

Your name precedes you Dennis, so I'll do us all a favor and bow out as I have no dog in this fight and this was merely a way to pass some time on a boring night at work.  It's obvious anything I put will be refuted as menial, as you apparently work off the "all I have to do is prove you wrong, and I am right" system.  I respectfully disagree with you, my only point was I don't cut certain people any slack because they are my representatives, I hold them more accountable since they represent me.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 8:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course we've had similar attacks against our citizens like Benghazi during the Bush Administration but what's different about it is the way the Obama Administration handled it or "lack" of handling it.  It's obvious that there is a cover up attempt and to this very day, we have not been given the full story as promised by this administration.  You can't compare that with the Bush Administration at all.  It's time for this administration to be accountable for it's actions or lack of actions.  We, the American people should demand that without reference to any political affiliation.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 8:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

ok, let's get back to hiking and backpacking! ;)
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 8:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Cmazzac @ May 10 2013, 11:31 pm)
QUOTE
I feel justified in saying this due to the fact that I was an ignorant high schooler during most of the war and could of cared less at the time about politics, but after seeing the hatred for Bush after the "WMD's" lie came to light, why do people not hold this administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?

The straightforward answer to that question is that the Obama administration has not committed "transgressions" even remotely equivalent to the administration of GW Bush. If the public reacted in the "same way" it would be wildly disproportionate and unjustified.


(Cmazzac @ May 10 2013, 11:31 pm)
QUOTE
I fail to understand the logic of this whole debacle since at the end of the day "we the people" seem to just want a reason to hate someone, its troubling to say the least.

There is blind ignorant hatred, and there is justified animosity based on real (not merely perceived) transgressions.

Let's recap GW's record on national security, which ostensibly was his strength:

Richard Clarke (coordinator for counter-terrorism in 4 adminstrations) repeatedly tried to get the Bush administration to take the al Qaeda threat seriously, but Bush essentially ignored that threat and the memo in August 2001 that bin Laden was determined to strike within the US. A month later we were struck by the worst terrorist attack in history.

Bush failed to send enough forces to Afghanistan to capture bin Laden but kept us mired there, slowly losing ground as resources were shifted to Iraq.

His administration launched a systematic campaign of half-truths and lies to garner support for the invasion of Iraq, which he constantly conflated with 9/11 but had nothing to do with it.

Ignored plans developed by the State Department and testimony by foremost military expert General Shinseki on what would be necessary to secure the peace in Iraq, then mismanaged the occupation into a fiasco resulting in nearly 5,000 dead US troops and a $3 trillion price tag by the time the wounded are cared for -- while greatly strengthening the position of Iran in the region.

In summation, Bush exploited 9/11 (which he did nothing to prevent) and manipulated the American people through fear and lies to launch an extremely costly war of choice the neoconservatives in his administration were clamoring for before he took office. Thousands of American families lost loved ones, tens of thousands are permanently disabled, and more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians are dead.

Everything I wrote above is not an expression of hatred, but of fact. However, I think it is entirely appropriate that such egregious transgressions have resulted in considerable animosity towards that president and his administration.

Now, you expressed disdain that the current president has not been "held accountable" in the same fashion, within the context of the attack on our embassy in Benghazi.

Do you honestly think the failure to anticipate and prevent the deaths of 4 Americans on foreign soil compares to the Bush record I laid out for you?

I thought it was necessary to lay this out for you because you admitted to being "an ignorant high schooler" while much of that history was taking place, and that you "fail to understand the logic."


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And your point is???
The Bush administration...the dad that is...started us on this slippery slope. Old man Bush sucked as president but we fell for his BS..."Read my lips no new taxes"...His son continued the slide with endless wars that have proved nothing but a waste of lives and money as well as our reputation and now Obama carries on...Remember when he said, during the elections, that he would get us out of the mid east? and close Gitmo? Well he is no better at keeping his word than the preceding presidents.

We've not had an honorable president in decades and it is our fault for believing these morons and voting for them.

It's time and past time for a clean sweep of all the morons in our houses, especially the White House. But I'll bet you will still vote for another idiot because he/she or it supports a cause you want promoted...


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hmmmm.

Are attacks on our diplomats and diplomatic missions prior to Benghazi unprecedented?  It would appear not.

Are politically motivated coverups  on the nature and causes of such attacks (to include destroying the careers of career diplomats, sending spokespersons out on various TV shows presenting false information, changing CIA briefings, etc etc) unprecedented?  It would appear so.

Like so many other political scandals, the event itself is mildly scandalous, while the (attempted) cover up is much much more so.  It looks like politicians insist on relearning the lessons of Watergate and Lewinski.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seems that is the way our political (and legal) system works , it is adversarial*, allot of politicial inquiries are for public consumption.  They do risk looking like they are on a witch hunt if they take it too far.  

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365010365

Since supporters tend to ignore such things, and opponents  tend to remain opponents so not sure it matters.  I guess I will wait until they find something.  
(Have they?)

That request for more security were denied (by who and why?) seems to be the real issue. How common is it to ignore such requests?  Did the funding cuts by the Rs have anything to do with it? Was this failure part of a cover up?  Of course it isn't surprising that they tried to put out one scenario, and try not to give folks political ammunition? Did Obama and company go too far in trying to do that?

*(Or I should say it appears to be adversarial in some cases. I was told that politicians will trade voting killing bills that one does not want but which they can not vote against because of their constituents etc.)


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

why do people not hold this administration accountable for their transgressions against the American public the same way they did the former?

So you think that the murder of four American diplomats in Benghazzi is pretty much the same as getting the US in a 10+ year long war based on false information, in which thousands of our best soldiers have been killed, tens of thousands severley wounded and maimed for life, costing the taxpayers over a trillion dollars, and ruining our reputation in the international community as reliable leaders of the free world??

Interesing world view!!

What exactly has been covered up, or attempted to be covered up??

Rice made a public statement based on a CIA memo, very early after the event.  It turned out the CIA memo was wrong, and was later corrected, at which time the Obama administration corrected the information about the attack, and took strong action to identify and apprehend the terrorist murderers.  

Wow, some cover up, neh?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 1:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

Your name precedes you Dennis, so I'll do us all a favor and bow out as I have no dog in
this fight and this was merely a way to pass some time on a boring night at work.


actually I'm only able to prove anyone wrong if they present to me weak arguments which is
the case with you.  Also if you have no dog in this fight you wouldn't feel the need to give
yourself an excuse such as "this was merely a way to pass some time on a boring night at
work" or give the snide response you apparently work off the "all I have to do is prove
you wrong, and I am right"
.  If this really was your attitude why even give a response?

Seems to me that you made weak arguments and got called on it but instead of having the
courage to actually form an argument to counter my arguments you felt it easier to give
a response like It's obvious anything I put will be refuted as menial, as you apparently
work off the "all I have to do is prove you wrong, and I am right" system.
(not the first
poster to choice to go down that route)

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I respectfully disagree with you, my only point was I don't cut certain people any slack
because they are my representatives, I hold them more accountable since they represent me.


and don't think you're unique here.  Actually here its seems your talking specifically about
real accountability such as voting and there is nothing said on this forum, that I'm aware of,
that could lead you to believe people on this forum don't operate on than principle(not operating
on that principle in the case of voting would mean voting in a district or state where you
don't reside, which would be voting illegally, but not voting in your own which would be just
about impossible).

about false equivalences and why people like me hate them so much is that they are inherently
unfair because false equivalence put equal blame(or close to it) on two parties even though
both parties didn't do something equally to justify equal blame.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 2:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

KaiWinters said
QUOTE

And your point is???
The Bush administration...the dad that is...started us on this slippery slope. Old man Bush
sucked as president but we fell for his BS..."Read my lips no new taxes"


You know almost all politicians change positions in one way or another and so in the case of
Bush Sr, if there would be a logical reason to change a position, his position change on
raising taxes would be that position.  Unlike today's Republicans, Republicans of more than
20 years ago were more reasonable on taxes and realized that reducing debt isn't just dependent
on spending but on revenues too. Today's Republicans are totally unreasonable and fanatical
when it comes to tax policy but even back in Bush Sr. days there was obviously significant
pressure to not raise taxes.

KaiWinters said
QUOTE

His son continued the slide with endless wars that have proved nothing but a waste of lives and money as well as our reputation and now Obama carries on...Remember when he said, during the elections, that he would get us out of the mid east? a


Do you have a quote on Obama getting us out of the middle east? Actually he was pretty clear
his first term that he would end the war in Iraq(from the perspective of US troops. Obviously
internally there is strife going on and will go on) but he would escalate the war in
Afghanistan.

Gitmo? So you wanted him to end Gitmo?  

Actually you need to pay attention more closely. Obama isn't a dictator. We have a congress.
Read the following to see what I'm talking about

http://www.nytimes.com/2009....ll&_r=0

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....age=all

and on promises? Well you know politifact has an entire webpage on this and once again
you're, at best, only partially correct

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

as you can see he has kept far more promises than he has broken

contrast that with the GOP

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/gop-pledge-o-meter/

KaiWinters said
QUOTE

Well he is no better at keeping his word than the preceding presidents.


stats?

linky?

KaiWinters said
QUOTE

We've not had an honorable president in decades and it is our fault for believing these
morons and voting for them.


Who was the last "honorable president" in your opinion?

KaiWinters said
QUOTE

It's time and past time for a clean sweep of all the morons in our houses, especially the
White House. But I'll bet you will still vote for another idiot because he/she or it
supports a cause you want promoted...


Its Obama's 2nd term, he can't have another term so you don't have to worry about Obama
since he will not be president again.  BTW I see you're calling Obama a moron. HMMMM.
Do you think you're smarter than Obama?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 2:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

By the way here is one of my favorite videos in regard to Benghazi and in particular the media coverage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjA4SpZaGY


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ May 11 2013, 1:35 pm)
QUOTE
Are politically motivated coverups  on the nature and causes of such attacks (to include destroying the careers of career diplomats, sending spokespersons out on various TV shows presenting false information, changing CIA briefings, etc etc) unprecedented?  It would appear so.

I would to see Kenv elaborate on the above


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 5:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ May 11 2013, 3:01 pm)
QUOTE

(KenV @ May 11 2013, 1:35 pm)
QUOTE
Are politically motivated coverups  on the nature and causes of such attacks (to include destroying the careers of career diplomats, sending spokespersons out on various TV shows presenting false information, changing CIA briefings, etc etc) unprecedented?  It would appear so.

I would to see Kenv elaborate on the above

I would like to see a lot of things.  I'm often disappointed.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 6:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ May 11 2013, 12:05 pm)
QUOTE
And your point is???
The Bush administration...the dad that is...started us on this slippery slope. Old man Bush sucked as president but we fell for his BS..."Read my lips no new taxes"...His son continued the slide with endless wars that have proved nothing but a waste of lives and money as well as our reputation and now Obama carries on...Remember when he said, during the elections, that he would get us out of the mid east? and close Gitmo? Well he is no better at keeping his word than the preceding presidents.

We've not had an honorable president in decades and it is our fault for believing these morons and voting for them.

It's time and past time for a clean sweep of all the morons in our houses, especially the White House. But I'll bet you will still vote for another idiot because he/she or it supports a cause you want promoted...

Not sure if you were adressing me, but your post followed mine.

My point (in response to your post) is there are several orders of magnitude (both qualitative & quantitative) between a broken campaign promise and deliberately lying our country into a war that cost trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.

Based on your comments, you don't seem to understand the difference.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 8:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course candidate Obama never said he would "get us out of the Mideast" so that's a rather large FAIL. While i clearly recall a lot of right wing wailing over his actually fulfilling the previous administration's international treaty commitment in the Iraq Status of Forces Agreement to withdraw our combat forces from Iraq. And the administration is on track to completing the same in Afghanistan in 2014 per that relevant treaty.

On the larger point I'd opine there's often a rather large gulf between "broken" and "unfulfilled" campaign promises. Though that requires a bit more thought than the average foot stomping juvenile is either willing or capable of applying to the issues.

The Obama  administration has surely avoided some items it had spoken of addressing in the campaigns: Guantanamo isn't one of them. There a Congressional LAW on the books preventing the closing of that prison.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 9:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ May 11 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ May 11 2013, 3:01 pm)
QUOTE

(KenV @ May 11 2013, 1:35 pm)
QUOTE
Are politically motivated coverups  on the nature and causes of such attacks (to include destroying the careers of career diplomats, sending spokespersons out on various TV shows presenting false information, changing CIA briefings, etc etc) unprecedented?  It would appear so.

I would to see Kenv elaborate on the above

I would like to see a lot of things.  I'm often disappointed.

and I'm not in the least bit surprised that Kenv dodged it.  Elaborating would mean giving more specifics
and I would really like to see what Kenv was referring to when he said specifically "to include destroying
the careers of career diplomats, sending spokespersons out on various TV shows presenting false information,
changing CIA briefings, etc etc"?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 9:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ May 11 2013, 11:01 am)
QUOTE
By the way here is one of my favorite videos in regard to Benghazi and in particular the media coverage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZjA4SpZaGY

I don't think you can put links in your signature line, but that would be a good one to use if you could.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 11:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I suppose it's also accurate to say Obama lies and Americans died.
He is a stinking lying politician like all the others regardless of party.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 11 2013, 11:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I suppose it's also accurate to say Obama lies and Americans died.
He is a stinking lying politician like all the others regardless of party.


I have yet to hear what the Obama lie was that led to the Americans dieing??

Any possibility you can state that lie simply and succinctly??

And while you whine like wounded chihuahua about our current political system, please state what you alternative, much improved model would consist of.

Are you in favor of rule by robot, so human errors will be minimized?

Or, do you like the benevolent dictator model, where lovable ol' Uncle Joe will take care of everyones need, without effort of disappintment by the serfs??

Maybe some other possibility that eliminates human frailty and failure.

I kinda like the way we are getting along now.  Slow and messy, but way better than any alternative that has been tried so far.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 12 2013, 3:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ May 11 2013, 1:59 pm)
QUOTE
Cmazzac said
QUOTE

Your name precedes you Dennis, so I'll do us all a favor and bow out as I have no dog in
this fight and this was merely a way to pass some time on a boring night at work.


actually I'm only able to prove anyone wrong if they present to me weak arguments which is
the case with you.  Also if you have no dog in this fight you wouldn't feel the need to give
yourself an excuse such as "this was merely a way to pass some time on a boring night at
work" or give the snide response you apparently work off the "all I have to do is prove
you wrong, and I am right"
.  If this really was your attitude why even give a response?

Seems to me that you made weak arguments and got called on it but instead of having the
courage to actually form an argument to counter my arguments you felt it easier to give
a response like It's obvious anything I put will be refuted as menial, as you apparently
work off the "all I have to do is prove you wrong, and I am right" system.
(not the first
poster to choice to go down that route)

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I respectfully disagree with you, my only point was I don't cut certain people any slack
because they are my representatives, I hold them more accountable since they represent me.


and don't think you're unique here.  Actually here its seems your talking specifically about
real accountability such as voting and there is nothing said on this forum, that I'm aware of,
that could lead you to believe people on this forum don't operate on than principle(not operating
on that principle in the case of voting would mean voting in a district or state where you
don't reside, which would be voting illegally, but not voting in your own which would be just
about impossible).

about false equivalences and why people like me hate them so much is that they are inherently
unfair because false equivalence put equal blame(or close to it) on two parties even though
both parties didn't do something equally to justify equal blame.

I never provided an arguement to begin with Dennis....  So stop reading into my posts and projecting your insecurities on me.  The fact that you base ones level of courage off of their political fence sitting on a backpacking forum speaks volumes of your character...
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PostIcon Posted on: May 12 2013, 3:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To begin this Cmazzac said "I have no dog in this fight" yet not only is Cmazzac here once
again after saying in its last response "so I'll do us all a favor and bow out " but now its
response are even more personal yet with such a response such as The fact that you base
ones level of courage off of their political fence sitting on a backpacking forum speaks
volumes of your character...


so obviously Cmazzac has a big dog in this fight. A very big one

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I never provided an arguement to begin with Dennis....  


well than that makes whatever you say that much more pathetic and lacking in substance
doesn't it?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

So stop reading into my posts and projecting your insecurities on me.  


^^ Irony code red

The only way you could know if I was "projecting" my own "insecurities" on to you is if you
were 'reading into my posts' which is exactly what you just accused me of. Now that sounds
like projection to me.  Try and think before posting for once,

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

The fact that you base ones level of courage off of their political fence sitting on a
backpacking forum speaks volumes of your character...


Sounds like "reading into my posts and projecting your insecurities on" me now given I said
no such thing or implied any sort of thing. The idea that you think you know me well enough
that you make an statement about my character says a lot about you especially given that you
obviously haven't been on this forum long at all(unless you've posted under using other handles)

Its also speaks volumes that instead of talking about the actual topic you've made the
decision to make this personal. Why is that? What does that say about you?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 12 2013, 3:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ May 11 2013, 11:15 pm)
QUOTE
I suppose it's also accurate to say Obama lies and Americans died.
He is a stinking lying politician like all the others regardless of party.

You're big on hyperbolic rhetoric but short on facts aren't you?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 12 2013, 8:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KaiWinters @ May 11 2013, 10:15 pm)
QUOTE
I suppose it's also accurate to say Obama lies and Americans died.
He is a stinking lying politician like all the others regardless of party.

What lie(s) are you referring to? Please be specific, and explain how it resulted in American deaths.

But I suggest you check your facts first.

So far, you've asserted Obama promised to "get us out of the mid east"  (he never promised any such thing) and that he would close the prison in Guantanamo. The latter he has failed to do, though not for lack of trying. Republicans in Congress have blocked him, which makes it rather ironic that rightwingers are always expressing outrage at Obama for this unfulfilled campaign promise.

I understand your outrage at lying politicians and at the costly messes they've made (which could amount to high crimes in some cases) but you don't seem to have a good grasp of the facts or of proportion. Your example for Bush Sr was his "Read My Lips" pledge, but raising taxes when necessary under changing economic circumstances should be pretty low on the outrage scale. What should have been much more troubling was his role in the Iran-Contra scandal, which in many respects was worse than Watergate.

Bush junior (along with Cheney) in my opinion richly deserved to be impeached for the campaign of misinformation that took us into Iraq and for sanctioning torture.

In regards to Obama, he was handed a huge mess upon entering office including the conflict in Afghanistan which GW had us mired in for nearly 8 years. There were no good options, but I don't like his decision for the "surge" or the widespread use of drones. I don't think he has made the case for exactly what we hope to accomplish in Afghanistan, the likelihood of a lasting success, or why the continuing sacrifice of blood and treasure is necessary for our national security. And although the drones are taking out some terrorists the "collateral damage" may be creating more of them in the long run.

But those are policy disagreements -- not high crimes or big lies. Your posts in this thread suggest the last two administrations are equally guilty, but you have not offered any evidence or a sound argument to back that up.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 12 2013, 6:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ May 12 2013, 3:40 am)
QUOTE
To begin this Cmazzac said "I have no dog in this fight" yet not only is Cmazzac here once
again after saying in its last response "so I'll do us all a favor and bow out " but now its
response are even more personal yet with such a response such as The fact that you base
ones level of courage off of their political fence sitting on a backpacking forum speaks
volumes of your character...


so obviously Cmazzac has a big dog in this fight. A very big one

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

I never provided an arguement to begin with Dennis....  


well than that makes whatever you say that much more pathetic and lacking in substance
doesn't it?

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

So stop reading into my posts and projecting your insecurities on me.  


^^ Irony code red

The only way you could know if I was "projecting" my own "insecurities" on to you is if you
were 'reading into my posts' which is exactly what you just accused me of. Now that sounds
like projection to me.  Try and think before posting for once,

Cmazzac said
QUOTE

The fact that you base ones level of courage off of their political fence sitting on a
backpacking forum speaks volumes of your character...


Sounds like "reading into my posts and projecting your insecurities on" me now given I said
no such thing or implied any sort of thing. The idea that you think you know me well enough
that you make an statement about my character says a lot about you especially given that you
obviously haven't been on this forum long at all(unless you've posted under using other handles)

Its also speaks volumes that instead of talking about the actual topic you've made the
decision to make this personal. Why is that? What does that say about you?

Haha, I would thoroughly enjoy having a beer with you Dennis.
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