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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 4:34 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Bush's poodle -- calling for intervention in Syria -- truly a one-trick dog?

I doubt the world loves Bashar al-Assad much more than it did Saddam Hussein.  But BEFORE our leaders clamor for intervention... have they learned their history lesson?  Afraid not.

Say they topple Assad like they did Hussein.  Is it going to be another "nation building" -- building a democracy out of blank ballots and indelible ink?  Ignoring the sectarian and tribal divisions that go back centuries?

No one here likes a brutal dictator.  But do we still not care that our half-baked "cure" might be far worse than the disease itself?  Do we really not care about the potential for years (decade) long of bombings and infighting -- like in Iraq and Afghanistan right now -- when Bush/Blair foolishly removed a dictatorship -- without adequate thought/preparation/execution of a replacement political structure -- other than "good intentions and high hopes"? ???

To those of you who think we need to "do something" -- do you know much more about Syria than you did Iraq?  Do you know much more about which of the many warring factions to back -- as you did with Iraq?  No?

America (and its poodle Britain) -- a menace to the world.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 5:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:34 pm)
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America (and its poodle Britain) -- a menace to the world.

So - are you putting your money where your mouth is - donating money to AQIM, AQAP, ISI, al Nusrah, et al?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jun. 15 2013, 2:07 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:34 pm)
QUOTE
America (and its poodle Britain) -- a menace to the world.

So - are you putting your money where your mouth is - donating money to AQIM, AQAP, ISI, al Nusrah, et al?

Read comprehension a problem for you?  Just where did you read that I support any faction / organization over another?

The whole point is this:  we don't know who the rebels really are or what they fight for.   Freedom and democracy?  Or their own chance to be top dog and to lord it over everyone else?

America knows best, eh?  And when we stupidly get ourselves sucked in and have to send in "advisers" (and later troops) -- then just more souls to thank on the next Memorial Day, eh?

A better way -- let folks determine their own future -- as we did our own.

Finally, to me, intervention would be justified under two conditions:

1.  If the fighting should become so egregious -- if, for example, Bashar determines to slaughter the rebels even if they surrender just to cleanse them all out.   But that's not the case.  In fact, the case where we had a genuine cleansing -- Rwanda -- we did nothing -- because that wasn't in an area of traditional American interest.  See the folly and the hypocrisy there?

2.  If #1 is met, then intervention ought to be under the auspices of the UN -- a world effort -- and not one coming from a bully (us) -- along with some coalition of willing bullies that we cobble together.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 5:16 pm)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 15 2013, 2:07 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:34 pm)
QUOTE
America (and its poodle Britain) -- a menace to the world.

So - are you putting your money where your mouth is - donating money to AQIM, AQAP, ISI, al Nusrah, et al?

Read comprehension a problem for you?  Just where did you read that I support any faction / organization over another?

Not at all - how about you?  If you don't "support any faction / organization over another", why do you post on such topics?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 5:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jun. 15 2013, 2:25 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 5:16 pm)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 15 2013, 2:07 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:34 pm)
QUOTE
America (and its poodle Britain) -- a menace to the world.

So - are you putting your money where your mouth is - donating money to AQIM, AQAP, ISI, al Nusrah, et al?

Read comprehension a problem for you?  Just where did you read that I support any faction / organization over another?

Not at all - how about you?  If you don't "support any faction / organization over another", why do you post on such topics?

How about posting in support for non-intervention?  In other words, posting in support of respecting the right of other societies to determine their own political future?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 7:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh look, another 101 things I dislike about America thread from Ben.

That aside, I'm opposed to US intervention in Syria at this point.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 7:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Saddam Hussein...the biggest deterrent  to Iran developing nukes, and we got him hung.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 8:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:00 pm)
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Oh look, another 101 things I dislike about America thread from Ben.

That aside, I'm opposed to US intervention in Syria at this point.

101?  Three, actually:  our arrogance, our ignorance and our hypocrisy.  :;):

BTW, NSA has admitted that it listens in on domestic calls too.  The analysts themselves make their own decisions to listen in or not.  No bother with court process.  And the worst part is all this has nothing to do with rogue bureaucrats.  Obama himself has come out swinging on behalf of NSA.  And all his lectures about human rights, government transparency, and the rule of law!

I hope you too recognize the gravity of our government doing's  -- and not be blinded by notions of 'patriotism' to toe the line, circle the wagons...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 8:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Another sure thing in life -- Americans hiding behind their "patriotism".   Yep.  More wars.  More war dead.

But hey, that just means more to "thank and feel good about" come next Memorial Day, right?  Sweet!  :;):

And my bringing up our own arrogance, ignorance and hypocrisy is nothing at all compared to the incessant lecturing coming from our political leaders and our media...  Didn't Obama bring up this whole sordid business about hacking to his Chinese counterpart just last week?  Laughable.  Sad.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2013, 9:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It is not our job to be the world's police and/or moral guide. Let other places do what they will and we stay out of it. UNLESS they pose a direct and immediate threat to us.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 6:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
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Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 8:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:45 am)
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(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
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Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1

And what did Ben say that isn't true?  All he asks is that we be careful about getting ourselves into another mess, we seem to be very good at doing that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 8:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And just to make this a little more interesting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news....58.html

Can anybody tell us just what benefit the citizens of the US will get from intervention in Syria? Perhaps as much as we received from Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, or any of the others?
We have only one REAL ally in that part of the world. If the fighting spills over into Israel, we would have a genuine reason to get involved. Until that time, we should stay out of it. It is not our place to resolve the Sunni-Shiiite conflict, and I doubt if we could. This mess in Syria could suck us into a war that no one would win, and cost many American lives, American goodwill (what little we have left over there), and another trillion dollars that we would have to borrow from China.
Are we such slow learners, or is there another reason that I am not seeing for us to get involved?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 1:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(2itchyfeet @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:08 am)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:45 am)
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(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
QUOTE
Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1

And what did Ben say that isn't true?  All he asks is that we be careful about getting ourselves into another mess, we seem to be very good at doing that.

I think many here would agree with Ben on most of the nuts and bolts.  
It's the soapboxing I could do with out.  

He is far more passionate with his editorializing than those alleged patriots he constantly rails against are.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I like to disagree with Ben as much as I like to agree with him. Carry on Ben.

Beemerphill, It would be nice to have more than one friend in the Middle-east. Dictators make really sucky friends, if we want friends, they need to be people, not military juntas. Israel has been the kind of friend that might steal your car, if they needed to go somewhere.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Eccocentric,
I agree with you. Look up the USS Liberty(if you don't know the story already). Israel is using us, for military hardware, for money, and for political muscle. We are the big guy on their side that their lobbyists have bought for them. As sad as that sounds, they are the only ones in that part of the world that are even close to being on our side. They ain't much, but they are all that we have there. I certainly would not want to back any of the other countries in that area. And I would not like to see American boots on the ground in Israel unless there was no alternative.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 5:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
So the U.S. inches down the road of mission creep in a civil war featuring one side backed by Hezbollah and the other by "al-Qaeda-linked extremists.


Doesn't seem like much of a choice?

This week brought several reminders of the virtues of skepticism.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 8:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Jun. 16 2013, 10:35 am)
QUOTE

(2itchyfeet @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:08 am)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:45 am)
QUOTE

(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
QUOTE
Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1

And what did Ben say that isn't true?  All he asks is that we be careful about getting ourselves into another mess, we seem to be very good at doing that.

I think many here would agree with Ben on most of the nuts and bolts.  
It's the soapboxing I could do with out.  

He is far more passionate with his editorializing than those alleged patriots he constantly rails against are.

hbfa:

Consider the harm we have done to Iraq... and now some of us are talking about intervening in Syria... soapboxing is the least of it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 9:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben,
You just rub me wrong with many of your soapbox style tirades.  

Your assumptions that anyone who shows a degree of cultural attachment to our country somehow implies an unquestioned support for any and all actions committed by that country is just plain inaccurate.    
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 16 2013, 11:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Jun. 16 2013, 6:27 pm)
QUOTE
Ben,
You just rub me wrong with many of your soapbox style tirades.  

Your assumptions that anyone who shows a degree of cultural attachment to our country somehow implies an unquestioned support for any and all actions committed by that country is just plain inaccurate.    

Actually, I myself have lots of cultural attachments to the good old US of A that I freely share with others.  My criticism is focused mostly on our political leadership (Obama as of the moment), McCain, and a whole host of others -- as well as our media in general.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 1:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 16 2013, 8:17 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Jun. 16 2013, 10:35 am)
QUOTE

(2itchyfeet @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:08 am)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:45 am)
QUOTE

(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
QUOTE
Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1

And what did Ben say that isn't true?  All he asks is that we be careful about getting ourselves into another mess, we seem to be very good at doing that.

I think many here would agree with Ben on most of the nuts and bolts.  
It's the soapboxing I could do with out.  

He is far more passionate with his editorializing than those alleged patriots he constantly rails against are.

hbfa:

Consider the harm we have done to Iraq... and now some of us are talking about intervening in Syria... soapboxing is the least of it.

Can you provide an example in history of a peaceable transition from tyranny to a free society that didn't include 1. War  2. Outside support from ally nations.  This might help support your theory.  Also I do not condone giving weapons to terrorists, to think these weapons won't be used to harm innocents and allies in the future is crazy.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 3:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Cmazzac @ Jun. 16 2013, 10:08 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 16 2013, 8:17 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Jun. 16 2013, 10:35 am)
QUOTE

(2itchyfeet @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:08 am)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jun. 16 2013, 5:45 am)
QUOTE

(Chuck D @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:43 pm)
QUOTE
Three sure things in life

death
taxes
and Ben bitching about the United States

+1

And what did Ben say that isn't true?  All he asks is that we be careful about getting ourselves into another mess, we seem to be very good at doing that.

I think many here would agree with Ben on most of the nuts and bolts.  
It's the soapboxing I could do with out.  

He is far more passionate with his editorializing than those alleged patriots he constantly rails against are.

hbfa:

Consider the harm we have done to Iraq... and now some of us are talking about intervening in Syria... soapboxing is the least of it.

Can you provide an example in history of a peaceable transition from tyranny to a free society that didn't include 1. War  2. Outside support from ally nations.  This might help support your theory.  Also I do not condone giving weapons to terrorists, to think these weapons won't be used to harm innocents and allies in the future is crazy.


Absolutely!  Chile.  Argentina.  Brazil.  Taiwan.  Korea.  Indonesia.  Philippines.  South Africa.  The list can go on...

OTOH, there are many other transitions that did involve wars -- some of them quite successful -- Slovenia.  Bosnia.  Vietnam.  Cambodia.  This list can go on too.

OTOH, there are also many other transitions that did involve wars -- and didn't succeed.  The Bolshevik Revolution (basically from one kind of tyranny into another -- with lots of bloodshed in between).  The earlier (1911) Chinese revolution.

OTOH...  I hope you get the point that no one -- including America -- has the crystal ball.  More often, there is no clear "good guy vs. bad guy" among insurgents involved in bloody civil wars.  More often than not, it's better not to intervene.

Think about our own BLOODY civil war that turned out "well" in the sense that it forged a stronger and more integrated nation. Imagine the outcome if foreign powers (British Empire, French Empire, etc.) had intervened -- tying Lincoln's hands.  Could have resulted in a far longer war....  Heck, we could actually be 2 or 3 or 4 separate nations still fighting, still stabbing each other in the back, perennially inviting foreign interventions!!

Uncertain outcome aside, there is ALSO the issue of us going in with our own agenda!  Congo has been fighting for decades now and we don't give a hoot.  But the Middle East, it's suddenly "oh my god we need to help the poor Syrian freedom fighters" -- yeah, right.  It's mostly about our own agenda -- our own desire to shape that area of the world to our advantage.  Not good.  Not even moral (even if our politicians try hard to cloak their schemes under a blanket of morality!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 7:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:44 pm)
QUOTE
It is not our job to be the world's police and/or moral guide. Let other places do what they will and we stay out of it. UNLESS they pose a direct and immediate threat to us.

+1 .... well said!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 9:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Jun. 17 2013, 7:56 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Jun. 15 2013, 8:44 pm)
QUOTE
It is not our job to be the world's police and/or moral guide. Let other places do what they will and we stay out of it. UNLESS they pose a direct and immediate threat to us.

+1 .... well said!

+2

The US Department of Defense has been playing too much offense of late.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 10:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 16 2013, 8:16 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Jun. 16 2013, 6:27 pm)
QUOTE
Ben,
You just rub me wrong with many of your soapbox style tirades.  

Your assumptions that anyone who shows a degree of cultural attachment to our country somehow implies an unquestioned support for any and all actions committed by that country is just plain inaccurate.    

Actually, I myself have lots of cultural attachments to the good old US of A that I freely share with others.  My criticism is focused mostly on our political leadership (Obama as of the moment), McCain, and a whole host of others -- as well as our media in general.

Yet you rarely express those attachments, which is fine, that is your choice.
When others here choose to express their own attachments you often use that platform to attack our country, which also comes off as personal attacks against those participating in the thread - not against politicians or our media.

In the OP, you seem to be going after someone here - though I'm not sure who?  Have forum members been beating the drum for intervention in Syria?  And you conclude with a all-encompassing condemnation of our country and one of our strongest allies - not our politicians or our media.
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(hbfa @ Jun. 17 2013, 7:16 am)
QUOTE
In the OP, you seem to be going after someone here - though I'm not sure who?

That's your problem right there!  Please re-read my post #21.

You wonder why the repeated posting, the repeated reaction?  Because of the repeated lecturing over all the rest of the world by Obama, other political leaders, and of course, our media.  All hypocritical.  WHY do we keep doing this?


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(Ben2World @ Jun. 17 2013, 9:31 am)
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(hbfa @ Jun. 17 2013, 7:16 am)
QUOTE
In the OP, you seem to be going after someone here - though I'm not sure who?

That's your problem right there!  Please re-read my post #21.

That's my problem?

A thread's intent is typically judged by the first post from the originator - not by post #21.  
Regardless, #21 just looks like back pedaling to me.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 1:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 15 2013, 4:16 pm)
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A better way -- let folks determine their own future -- as we did our own.

Didn't France intervene on our behalf against the Brits? We were actively trying to determine our own future, but we had outside help doing it.

I'm nitpicking and playing the devils advocate here, but geopolitics is almost always more complicated than it appears. Even when there is no overt intervention, efforts at influencing outcomes (based on perceived national security interests) are SOP for most countries with the capability.

Having stated the above, I nevertheless pretty much agree with your OP -- though I think you're over-the-top by characterizing the US & UK as a "menace" to the world; that statement was an unnucessary provocation that detracts from discussion on the merits of the options in Syria.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 17 2013, 1:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(beemerphill @ Jun. 16 2013, 7:40 am)
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And just to make this a little more interesting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news....58.html

Can anybody tell us just what benefit the citizens of the US will get from intervention in Syria? Perhaps as much as we received from Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, or any of the others?
We have only one REAL ally in that part of the world. If the fighting spills over into Israel, we would have a genuine reason to get involved. Until that time, we should stay out of it. It is not our place to resolve the Sunni-Shiiite conflict, and I doubt if we could. This mess in Syria could suck us into a war that no one would win, and cost many American lives, American goodwill (what little we have left over there), and another trillion dollars that we would have to borrow from China.
Are we such slow learners, or is there another reason that I am not seeing for us to get involved?

Very interesting indeed, especially this paragraph:
Only once over the past two years has Israel fully condemned atrocities committed by the Assad regime, and while it has given medical help to wounded rebels on the Israeli-Syrian border, it fears an Islamist caliphate in Damascus far more than a continuation of Assad’s rule.  One former Israel intelligence commander recently described Assad as “Israel’s man in Damascus”.  Only days before President Mubarak was overthrown, both Netanyahu and King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia called Washington to ask Obama to save the Egyptian dictator.  In vain.  

I agree it's a mistake for us to get sucked into a conflict that -- at its core -- is an extension of the centuries-old Sunni-Shia rift in Islam. Our interventions in the Middle East are full of unintended consequences.

We are most definitely Israel's biggest ally, but I think that alliance is very one-sided in terms of our own national security. The expansion of settlements is a thumb in our eye that contradicts our official policy, and our no-strings-attached military aid to Israel stokes the anti-American outrage that is perhaps the biggest obstacle to our interests in the region. Absent that outrage, would 9/11 have occurred? Speculation to be sure, but it's a big recruiter for the terrorist ranks.

Our aid to Israel and Egypt is a form of intervention & meddling with consequences just as real and unpredictable in the long term as our siding with the Syrian rebels. It's a very complicated mess, and I can't predict the consequences of a policy of total disengagement while our adversaries work to influence outcomes.

And now we have another tiger by the tail, which raises the stakes and makes the outcome all the more consequential for us.


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