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Topic: W - Wrong Again!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 12:24 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Bush commented that 'Snowden damaged US security'.  Wrong, Bush!  It's our own intelligence bureaucrats who damaged our nation's security -- and standing!!

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 2:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

You're right Ben, our intelligence apparatus started believing its own press.  Now we have to explain why we were bugging the EU.  Embarrassing doesn't begin to describe the humiliation.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 2:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 01 2013, 11:00 am)
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Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

You're right Ben, our intelligence apparatus started believing its own press.  Now we have to explain why we were bugging the EU.  Embarrassing doesn't begin to describe the humiliation.

Very sad for our nation.  Humiliation aside, there is also the great damage done to what's left of our credibility.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

IMHO anyone who didn't think we engaged in international intelligence gathering was a moron. And anyone who doesn't expect every other sovereign nation on the planet to be doing the same will be getting a very special egg from the bunny.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 6:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:24 pm)
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IMHO anyone who didn't think we engaged in international intelligence gathering was a moron. And anyone who doesn't expect every other sovereign nation on the planet to be doing the same will be getting a very special egg from the bunny.

Agree, actually!  And (to me) that begs the question of Obama and Congress and our media's collective "outrage" against cyber "attacks" coming from abroad.  The sentiment you expressed -- which again I actually agree with -- was little aired prior to Snowden's expose.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:28 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE
IMHO anyone who didn't think we engaged in international intelligence gathering was a moron. And anyone who doesn't expect every other sovereign nation on the planet to be doing the same will be getting a very special egg from the bunny.

Agree, actually!  And (to me) that begs the question of Obama and Congress and our media's collective "outrage" against cyber "attacks" coming from abroad.  The sentiment you expressed -- which again I actually agree with -- was little aired prior to Snowden's expose.

The parsing that went on before and after Snowden is a differentiation between commercial espionage for the benefit of state run and owned corporations and national security intelligence gathering that is NOT for commercial exploitation.

The French have been speculated to have actively run corporate espionage operations on the behalf of favored French corporations for decades, that's quite different from national security areas as most see it.

Hack the Kremlin; it's likely security (and the national government doing it's job, fewer mistakes with good intelligence), hack Lukoil or Exxon or Boeing and it's profit.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2013, 6:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:50 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 01 2013, 3:24 pm)
QUOTE
IMHO anyone who didn't think we engaged in international intelligence gathering was a moron. And anyone who doesn't expect every other sovereign nation on the planet to be doing the same will be getting a very special egg from the bunny.

Agree, actually!  And (to me) that begs the question of Obama and Congress and our media's collective "outrage" against cyber "attacks" coming from abroad.  The sentiment you expressed -- which again I actually agree with -- was little aired prior to Snowden's expose.

The parsing that went on before and after Snowden is a differentiation between commercial espionage for the benefit of state run and owned corporations and national security intelligence gathering that is NOT for commercial exploitation.

The French have been speculated to have actively run corporate espionage operations on the behalf of favored French corporations for decades, that's quite different from national security areas as most see it.

Hack the Kremlin; it's likely security (and the national government doing it's job, fewer mistakes with good intelligence), hack Lukoil or Exxon or Boeing and it's profit.

Dubious distinction IMO.  Snowden supposedly disclosed to the Chinese (or at least to Hong Kong) that Chinese telecom and other corporations were on the NSA hack list.  As well, while the Chinese military had reportedly hacked both American government and American corporate systems -- it is not proven that the Chinese hackers were doing this for commercial gain -- or simply to 'know thy enemy'.

My own understanding of China's way of copying/pirating -- which I do not condone -- is to simply buy a sample and then copy outright.  China's fabulous looking high speed trains look awfully similar to their French, German and Japanese counterparts.  Then there are the Apple iPad and iPhone lookalikes.  I seriously doubt these were made courtesy of Chinese military hackers passing on the info to the private sector!

Bottom line -- we all do what we can (versus should) -- and the strong not only gets away with doing a lot more -- but defines the "rules of the game".  In a game where everyone is involved, it is that 'loud moralizing nation' that has made itself a hypocrite -- again.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 03 2013, 9:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 01 2013, 6:24 pm)
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IMHO anyone who didn't think we engaged in international intelligence gathering was a moron. And anyone who doesn't expect every other sovereign nation on the planet to be doing the same will be getting a very special egg from the bunny.

Exactly right

Keeping it all secret might have helped us catch the really stupid terrorists.

Which is why I always include the words dirty bomb and Jihad into every cell phone conversation  :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 11:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"PARIS — Days after President François Hollande sternly told the United States to stop spying on its allies, the newspaper Le Monde disclosed on Thursday that France has its own large program of data collection, which sweeps up nearly all the data transmissions, including telephone calls, e-mails and social media activity, that come in and out of France....."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013....us&_r=0
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 11:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 04 2013, 8:26 pm)
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"PARIS — Days after President François Hollande sternly told the United States to stop spying on its allies, the newspaper Le Monde disclosed on Thursday that France has its own large program of data collection, which sweeps up nearly all the data transmissions, including telephone calls, e-mails and social media activity, that come in and out of France....."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013....us&_r=0

Yep.  And does that in any way inspire our respect for the French?  No?  Of course not!  And the same for us.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 2:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I heard many news about Snowden from the time he leaked the information on spying until he  flew to Russia. And now Italy and France rejected the asylum for Snowden. I have one question that linger in my mind. Snowden action could be faces more charges but why did they allow Snowden to flew in other country such as Hongkong and Russia?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am not sure I understand your question...

Snowden landed in Hong Kong before  he spilled the beans with The Guardian.  So, prior to that, there was no reason why the US would stop him from traveling -- and no reason for HK to bar his entry either.

Once the beans were spilled... methinks many countries were afraid to receive this sudden hot potato.  When Russia allowed Snowden a transit, Hong Kong was only too happy to see him off.  Now, the guy is in Russian limbo.

All the rage in Europe and South America -- no country has actually come out to give Snowden political asylum.  Poor guy...


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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
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Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
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Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 3:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
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Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

The law says that if you swear to do something and do the opposite, you've broken the law.  He did precisely that.  He swore an oath and broke it.  On top of that, and by his own admission, he planned it ahead of time.  He took that job solely for the access.

His conclusions were both preconceived and incorrect.  Both he and the press have stated a lot of incorrect information.

If you'd like to actually read the facts, read FISA, the FISA amendment act, and related laws which were passed by Congress.  They're in the public record.  Otherwise your rants are backed by nothing but your own preconceived ideas.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 3:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:33 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
QUOTE
Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

The law says that if you swear to do something and do the opposite, you've broken the law.  He did precisely that.  He swore an oath and broke it.  On top of that, and by his own admission, he planned it ahead of time.  He took that job solely for the access.

His conclusions were both preconceived and incorrect.  Both he and the press have stated a lot of incorrect information.

If you'd like to actually read the facts, read FISA, the FISA amendment act, and related laws which were passed by Congress.  They're in the public record.  Otherwise your rants are backed by nothing but your own preconceived ideas.

I definitely agree that he broke the law -- or at the very least a legally-binding contractual disclosure agreement.

But even 'breaking the law' is not always so black and white!  Here's an example.

Soldiers -- much more so than civilians like us -- are under oath to obey.  But even soldiers have both the right and the obligation to disobey  unlawful orders!

And in our civilian society, there are laws that protect whistle blowers!  The question is not that laws were broken -- but whether NSA surveillance is itself lawful or not.

Coming so soon after Obama's public lecturing of China -- it is quiet disheartening that the defense now coming out of Obama is 'hey, everybody does it'.   ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben, he broke lawful orders - laws which were written and passed by Congress.  If he, you, or anyone else disagrees with those laws, you are free to lobby your congressmen, circulate petitions, etc.

On top of simply breaking the law, he did so in a premeditated fashion.
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:00 pm)
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Ben, he broke lawful orders - laws which were written and passed by Congress.  If he, you, or anyone else disagrees with those laws, you are free to lobby your congressmen, circulate petitions, etc.

On top of simply breaking the law, he did so in a premeditated fashion.

No questions that Snowden broke the law.  But lawful orders? That  is the question that needs answering.  The powers that be need to look into the specifics of NSA and whether they line up with the laws passed by Congress.

Should Snowden be 'man enough' to return home and face justice?  Sadly, the way our government has treated Bradley Manning these three long years of "pre trial" incarceration reflects poorly to the eyes of the world that Snowden will be treated fairly and humanely in accordance with our own constitution!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
QUOTE
Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

Pleas iIf he'd taken "rule of law" at all seriously he wouldn't have violated so many of them.

His security clearance came with rather specific restrictions, very "lawful" restrictions. Which he rather thoroughly violated.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:25 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
QUOTE
Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

Pleas iIf he'd taken "rule of law" at all seriously he wouldn't have violated so many of them.

His security clearance came with rather specific restrictions, very "lawful" restrictions. Which he rather thoroughly violated.

For good reason?  Thus far, all indications are that it isn't for any personal material gain.

Seriously, if this was a 30-something Chinese intelligence contractor risking his life to expose his government's massive surveillance on Tibetans, other Chinese people, and foreign embassies in Beijing -- America would be welcoming him with open arms!

Or would you be arguing that he needs to be sent back because he obviously broke Chinese law?  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Congress has a committee in each chamber which receive annual updates from NSA and similar agencies.  If they do not believe the testimony they hear or have other concerns they are quite free to investigate further - appoint special investigative committees, etc.  The fact that they have not done so indicates that they are satisfied.

So again, if you disagree, raise the matter with your representatives.  Part of their job is to address your concerns.
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:33 pm)
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Congress has a committee in each chamber which receive annual updates from NSA and similar agencies.  If they do not believe the testimony they hear or have other concerns they are quite free to investigate further - appoint special investigative committees, etc.  The fact that they have not done so indicates that they are satisfied.

So again, if you disagree, raise the matter with your representatives.  Part of their job is to address your concerns.

And you know that NSA tells Congress everything  how?  There is always a place for whistle blowers.  Of course, do it for the wrong reasons or fabricating facts can (and should) still land them in jail.  But that's not the case here... thus far.

Read my post #20 above.  I think 'patriotism' may be causing you to be less than objective here...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:35 pm)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:33 pm)
QUOTE
Congress has a committee in each chamber which receive annual updates from NSA and similar agencies.  If they do not believe the testimony they hear or have other concerns they are quite free to investigate further - appoint special investigative committees, etc.  The fact that they have not done so indicates that they are satisfied.

So again, if you disagree, raise the matter with your representatives.  Part of their job is to address your concerns.

And you know that NSA tells Congress everything  how?  There is always a place for whistle blowers.  Of course, do it for the wrong reasons or fabricating facts can (and should) still land them in jail.  But that's not the case here... thus far.

Read my post #20 above.  I think 'patriotism' may be causing you to be less than objective here...

And you know that NSA withholds information from Congress how?

Of course there is a place for whistleblowers.  Again, if you'll read FISA, FAA, PAA, etc., you may (emphasis on "may") begin to understand what Congress allows.  If not, you'll continue to sound like a fool.

They're dry reading, and you may have to reread several sections to understand them, but they're publicly available.

If you actually read them and understand them you'll (hopefully) realize that both Snowden and the media have fabricated "facts".
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:40 pm)
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And you know that NSA withholds information from Congress how?

Of course there is a place for whistleblowers.  Again, if you'll read FISA, FAA, PAA, etc., you may (emphasis on "may") begin to understand what Congress allows.  If not, you'll continue to sound like a fool.

They're dry reading, and you may have to reread several sections to understand them, but they're publicly available.

If you actually read them and understand them you'll (hopefully) realize that both Snowden and the media have fabricated "facts".

Notice how some members of Congress have expressed outrage (or at least surprise) at the NSA (and Obama)?   Investigation is definitely called for.  I am sure glad our reps are not as complacent as you.

Reading your posts about 'fool', etc. -- your patriotism has blinded you.  Love your country by all means (I know I do) -- but don't love / pamper our politicians and bureaucrats for the wrong reasons.

You are ready (no, eager) to write the guy off.  I, on the other hand, see people like him as both brave and helpful.  That does not mean I believe everything he says is factual.  I wouldn't know.  But t's a good thing that Congress will be investigating.

Looks like we do agree that there is a place for whistleblowers.


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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:48 pm)
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Notice how some members of Congress have expressed outrage (or at least surprise) at the NSA (and Obama)?  

What I notice is that you still refuse to read the relevant laws which Congress has passed.
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:33 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:25 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
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Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

Pleas iIf he'd taken "rule of law" at all seriously he wouldn't have violated so many of them.

His security clearance came with rather specific restrictions, very "lawful" restrictions. Which he rather thoroughly violated.

For good reason? .....

"Reason? None that I've read. Perhaps they'll come out at his trial.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:50 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:33 pm)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:25 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:23 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
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Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

Pleas iIf he'd taken "rule of law" at all seriously he wouldn't have violated so many of them.

His security clearance came with rather specific restrictions, very "lawful" restrictions. Which he rather thoroughly violated.

For good reason? .....

"Reason? None that I've read. Perhaps they'll come out at his trial.

And at congressional hearings on NSA as well.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 4:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:50 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:48 pm)
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Notice how some members of Congress have expressed outrage (or at least surprise) at the NSA (and Obama)?  

What I notice is that you still refuse to read the relevant laws which Congress has passed.

We do not know if the NSA functions fully within the spirit and letter of the laws passed by Congress.  We DO KNOW that some in Congress have expressed surprise, shock and dismay -- which I pointed out and you ignored?  In this, Congress has oversight.   And even beyond Congress -- if some of the laws themselves are unconstitutional, then the courts need to step in.

Good thing that we have people like Snowden -- and organizations like the ACLU.  The voting public behaves too much like sheep.  Yeah, if a law is on the books, then you gotta obey.  Pretty unthinking there.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:51 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:50 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:33 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:25 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 12:23 pm)
QUOTE

(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:52 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 3:24 am)
QUOTE
Poor guy...

Stupid guy.  To pull a stunt like that and think that you'll be able to openly travel around the world at will is just plain dumb.

He believed too literally / too much in the propaganda of his own country -- freedom, democracy, the rule of law -- and the most laughable of all -- a transparent government.  He is also among the great majority.

Pleas iIf he'd taken "rule of law" at all seriously he wouldn't have violated so many of them.

His security clearance came with rather specific restrictions, very "lawful" restrictions. Which he rather thoroughly violated.

For good reason? .....

"Reason? None that I've read. Perhaps they'll come out at his trial.

And at congressional hearings on NSA as well.

Violations of ones security clearance doesn't get you before congress, it gets you before a judge and jury.

If he'd wanted to inform congress he could have called them, it's not as if every single one of them isn't listed in Thomas.gov
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 5:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:55 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 05 2013, 1:50 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 05 2013, 4:48 pm)
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Notice how some members of Congress have expressed outrage (or at least surprise) at the NSA (and Obama)?  

What I notice is that you still refuse to read the relevant laws which Congress has passed.

It's not up to me to decide.  Congress has oversight.   Is the NSA functioning within the confines of the laws?  And if some of the laws themselves are unconstitutional, then the courts need to step in.

Yes, Congress has oversight via at least one committee in each chamber.  As of now they've taken no action indicating that they believe that the NSA is functioning outside the confines of the applicable laws.  No hearings, no special committees, nothing.

Since you brought up the judicial branch, I assume that you're aware that no court has agreed to so much as hear a case on the matter.

To round out the trio of our federal branches of government, the president hasn't indicated that he believes that the NSA has violated any laws.

So there you go - all three branches of the federal government are currently satisfied.

Again, if you're outraged and your representatives are not, talk to them.
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