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Topic: Unexpectedly, More delays in the ACA< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 03 2013, 9:21 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just until after the 2014 elections

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs....print=1

Announced during a holiday week in a blog post

Hmmm.... ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 7:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The ACA was passed in 2010 and gave ALL who are affected adequate time to learn what was required to comply. Yet US business leaders ARE STILL COMPLAINING THAT THEY NEED MORE TIME!

That just shows you why China and India are growing so fast while the US economy just putters along. US business leaders are just SLOW LEARNERS.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 9:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, is the Obama administration kowtowing to business leaders, as usual?

or are they concerned that many businesses will whittle their workforce to 50 employees and this will have a negative impact on the economy, which would make their prospects in the 2014 elections dim.

I suspect the latter.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 2:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Once again, BB: I watch Fox too. I know that the right has been attempting to kill health care reform for a very long time - even before the latest incarnation passed. I also know that a large percentage of states headed by Republicans decided not to participate in exchanges or delayed their participation because they believed Obama wouldn't be re-elected.

Are you now going to say that any delays are the fault of the current administration? Do you really expect anyone to buy into that?

As seems to be usual now, the right is not showing any maturity at all. Like a spoiled child, if you don't get your way, in spite of the rules, you take your ball and go home, or throw a hissy fit. Personally, I'd like to see you take your toys and leave the country.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?  Why include such controversial benefits as birth control, abortion, etc.?   Why not start with the more run of the mill stuff -- preventative and basic treatments that are both necessary and non-controversial -- just to get the program off the ground -- and expand from there?

It's almost always easier to give than to take away.  Further down the road, future admin. can always expand the program -- birth control, whatever -- hopefully within budget reason -- and we'll see just how long the GOP can remain the 'party of no'!?!

But I think Obama -- and many on the left -- are too arrogant and/or too impatient.  T's better to start small and push through -- then to start grandiose, lose momentum, and very possibly end up with nothing -- like what happened to Hillary's grand push back in the Clinton years!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How much compromising do you want?  This ACA is a replica of R proposals and counter proposals in the last 10 years.  Liberal Leftists wanted even more, but knew they could not get it through Congress.  Republican health reform is mostly limited to Tort reform.

US majorities favor legal abortion, and readily available contraception.  Over the Counter sales of Plan B may make the point moot.  The day the vocal, religious, minority rules the land, we become a Theocracy.   


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 12:20 pm)
QUOTE
How much compromising do you want?  This ACA is a replica of R proposals and counter proposals in the last 10 years.  Liberal Leftists wanted even more, but knew they could not get it through Congress.  Republican health reform is mostly limited to Tort reform.

US majorities favor legal abortion, and readily available contraception.  Over the Counter sales of Plan B may make the point moot.  The day the vocal, religious, minority rules the land, we become a Theocracy.   


We've been through this before.  A SOLID MAJORITY of fellow Americans believe in some form of restrictions on abortion!

But back to topic.  How much compromise?  In a nation of fellow Americans?  When it comes to a completely new program that reflects an almost completely new direction for the entire country... then as much compromise as it takes to get a good supportive majority.  Do you want to win an argument or do you want to get a basic (but solid) health care program off the ground??


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Until you can say a solid majority are in favor of completely outlawing abortion, a SOLID MAJORITY are in favor of some access to abortion.

Restricting abortion on the basis of a calendar is not saying they want to ban the procedure.  It merely places a time limit on the decision process.  Our own biases tint our outlook on the issue.

The majority of Congress passed the law.  That, to me, says the majority of Americans.  This ACA uproar is not that much different than Social Security when it was first passed.  After a few years, citizens will wonder how we took so long to get Universal Care.  Single Payer Universal is where we need to go.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf
principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking
a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?


Well the ACA passed so Obama did win(no thanks to the obstructionist Republicans). Of course
the idea that Obama could have got more support from Republicans if he would have somehow
did something difference is pure nonsense. Republicans plan, as exemplified on Obama's
inauguration day with that infamous Republican meeting, was to oppose Obama on all fronts
which is exactly what Republicans did with record setting filibustering and general
obstruction.

If Obama aim was to please the left he would have pushed for single payer. Instead what
was passed was NOT only single payer and NOT only the compromise on a single payer(a public
option) but a bill modeled on republican ideas on healthcare.  This has been explained
many times on this forum.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Why include such controversial benefits as birth control, abortion, etc.?


What specifically are you claiming is controversial in regard to birth control and abortion
and who are you specifically claiming this controversial to? Who, other than those who
share your very conservative views on abortion, is this controversial to?

Let me remind you that most of America don't share your believes on abortion or issues
related to it(especially when it related to when human life begins where you believe it
starts a conception)

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Why not start with the more run of the mill stuff -- preventative and basic treatments that
are both necessary and non-controversial -- just to get the program off the ground -- and
expand from there?



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 18, 2013


Affordable Care Act extended free preventive care to 71 million Americans with private
health insurance


http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2013pres/03/20130318a.html


The ACA is hardly a radical bill.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

But I think Obama -- and many on the left -- are too arrogant and/or too impatient.  T's
better to start small and push through -- then to start grandiose, lose momentum, and very
possibly end up with nothing -- like what happened to Hillary's grand push back in the
Clinton years!


Again the ACA is hardly the idea healthcare plan the left would have liked. The ACA is much
more than a compromise and is built on republican ideas on healthcare yet reading your
response it seems you're totally oblivious(as usual) concerning the background of
an issue which is in this case the origins of the ACA.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 12:45 pm)
QUOTE
Until you can say a solid majority are in favor of completely outlawing abortion, a SOLID MAJORITY are in favor of some access to abortion.

Restricting abortion on the basis of a calendar is not saying they want to ban the procedure.  It merely places a time limit on the decision process.  Our own biases tint our outlook on the issue.

The majority of Congress passed the law.  That, to me, says the majority of Americans.  This ACA uproar is not that much different than Social Security when it was first passed.  After a few years, citizens will wonder how we took so long to get Universal Care.  Single Payer Universal is where we need to go.  

It bears repeating, ol zeke, do you want to win an argument or do you want to get a basic (but solid) health care program off the ground??

Here's the way I look at it.  Millions and millions have been arguing over this for four decades now -- and it's still as incendiary as the day the argument started!  Only a fool would think we can all get to the bottom of this with one mind and voice!

In the meantime... while we continue arguing -- millions and millions of fellow Americans are unemployed or they work at places that provide little to no health care -- and are suffering every day....


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 3:20 pm)
QUOTE
How much compromising do you want?  This ACA is a replica of R proposals and counter proposals in the last 10 years.  Liberal Leftists wanted even more, but knew they could not get it through Congress.  Republican health reform is mostly limited to Tort reform.
  

Actually it goes back more than 10 years. Chuck Grassley and Orin Hatch were talking about
the mandate in 1993 as an alternative to Hillary's proposals on healthcare. I also belive
that Nixon was even talking about many of the issues that are now in the ACA.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I want the Obstructionists to realize they are the minority, and to grow up.  When the majority rules, and that is confirmed by the judges as Constitutional, then it is time to move on.  Working for change is a good thing, but realizing when your point of view is so out of line with the majority that it stands no chance of enactment is the sign of maturity.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 3:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 12:56 pm)
QUOTE
I want the Obstructionists to realize they are the minority, and to grow up.  When the majority rules, and that is confirmed by the judges as Constitutional, then it is time to move on.  Working for change is a good thing, but realizing when your point of view is so out of line with the majority that it stands no chance of enactment is the sign of maturity.  

I see more emotions than either maturity or caring in your statement.  Sorry.

A pity, because I too want to see basic, universal health care off the ground.  Millions of Americans need it and they currently have no good alternatives.  But the left and the right -- many of them (like you and me) being upper or middle class with our own private insurance alternatives -- would rather choose to argue from a higher "moral" ground.   So in the meantime, there is nothing  for the have not's.  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How many of you know that the NFL was set to help promote the ACA to get people enrolled
until they capitulated to Republican pressure not to help promote it? Couple that with
Republicans refusal to be a part of the medicare expansion and its clear that Republicans
are trying to derail the ACA even after it has become law so they can then say "see. we told
you it failed"


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
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Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

My only prejudice is the recognition that many are fearful and uncomfortable with a major change such as this.  Why not take incremental steps and at least get something off the ground?

However, IMO, the way you wrote is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing!  You are so right and they are so wrong.  And of course, many on the other side think just the opposite and just as adamantly!

How did we get this way?  And IMO, Obama's "all or nothing" stance is most unhelpful.  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:57 pm)
QUOTE
Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?

If you think the ACA -- which expanded corporate insurance coverage without offering even a watered-down "public option" let alone Single Payer -- was crafted to please the Left, then you live on a different planet than me. The legislation was modeled after Heritage Foundation/Romneycare and ideas that were acceptable to the GOP before it turned more sharply to the right after Barack Hussein Obama became president.

Incremental approach? Every step the Democrats take towards the right the Repubs step away further away to the right, and the goal posts are steadily shifted rightwards. If this president has learned anything the past 4 years, it should be that you can't expect reason or compromise from obstructionists whose overriding goal from the start was the failure of his presidency.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
QUOTE
Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

IMO, the way you write is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing.

EVERYTHING you wrote is about you and your beliefs.  ZERO response from you at all about the plight of others -- that I wrote above.   Long on emotions.  Short on caring.

ironic response considering you're quite notorious for this

Case in point is the following response from you


To me, the central debate is whether a human fetus is also a human life.

All the stuff about big government intrusion or women haters, etc. -- are beside the point and patently unhelpful.


http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1163693

doesn't appear to be much room for compromise when it comes to your belief in regard to when life begins


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:08 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:57 pm)
QUOTE
Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?

If you think the ACA -- which expanded corporate insurance coverage without offering even a watered-down "public option" let alone Single Payer -- was crafted to please the Left, then you live on a different planet than me. The legislation was modeled after Heritage Foundation/Romneycare and ideas that were acceptable to the GOP before it turned more sharply to the right after Barack Hussein Obama became president.

Incremental approach? Every step the Democrats take towards the right the Repubs step away further away to the right, and the goal posts are steadily shifted rightwards. If this president has learned anything the past 4 years, it should be that you can't expect reason or compromise from obstructionists whose overriding goal from the start was the failure of his presidency.

That goes back to what I wrote above.  Some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle.  Those cannot be won over because of a fundamental difference in where they want to take the nation.

So therefore, the focus should be on winning over the moderates.  And with contraception/abortion, etc. being so controversial -- and also being just two of thousands of health care issues -- why create such a big roadblock?

My disgust is that the elite and the middle class get all involved in this arguing -- and in the meantime -- a program needed by so many gets delayed -- which may even mean running out of steam!  Just the way the extreme right wants it.   A pity, no?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
QUOTE
Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

My only prejudice is the recognition that many are fearful and uncomfortable with a major change such as this.  Why not take incremental steps and at least get something off the ground?

However, IMO, the way you wrote is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing!  You are so right and they are so wrong.  And of course, many on the other side think just the opposite and just as adamantly!

How did we get this way?  And IMO, Obama's "all or nothing" stance is most unhelpful.  ???

"all or nothing"? OMG

Ben just isn't listening/reading because how could a bill that was such HUGE compromise to begin with
be anything close to "ALL or NOTHING"?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:10 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
QUOTE
Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

IMO, the way you write is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing.

EVERYTHING you wrote is about you and your beliefs.  ZERO response from you at all about the plight of others -- that I wrote above.   Long on emotions.  Short on caring.

ironic response considering you're quite notorious for this

Case in point is the following response from you


To me, the central debate is whether a human fetus is also a human life.

All the stuff about big government intrusion or women haters, etc. -- are beside the point and patently unhelpful.


http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1163693

doesn't appear to be much room for compromise when it comes to your belief in regard to when life begins

Dennis:

Ironic?  You missed it COMPLETELY!!!

My point (as written above):  we Americans have been arguing over this for 40+ years now.  Why insist on this to cloud a program that is already difficult getting off the ground??

My second point is that it is far better to get a basic but solid health care program off the ground -- folks can always debate what more to add in future years.  But if we lose momentum by pushing too many people too hard -- we may end up with NOTHING -- which is just what the extreme right wants!

And that would be a great pity.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:13 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
QUOTE
Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

My only prejudice is the recognition that many are fearful and uncomfortable with a major change such as this.  Why not take incremental steps and at least get something off the ground?

However, IMO, the way you wrote is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing!  You are so right and they are so wrong.  And of course, many on the other side think just the opposite and just as adamantly!

How did we get this way?  And IMO, Obama's "all or nothing" stance is most unhelpful.  ???

"all or nothing"? OMG

Ben just isn't listening/reading because how could a bill that was such HUGE compromise to begin with
be anything close to "ALL or NOTHING"?

HUGE compromise is in the eye of the beholder.  The truth is still too many people either unsure about or disagree outright with too many provisions of the program as it now stands.  The GOP does not control everything and everyone.

Is the focus on winning the "pro choice" argument once and for -- and make all businesses pay for it?  Or is it to get a medical program off the ground so millions can benefit?  Focusing on the former will drain away the nation's time and energy for years to come...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 2:57 pm)
QUOTE
A pity, because I too want to see basic, universal health care off the ground.

Hate to burst your bubble, but reproductive health care, and family planning, is "basic health care" for women.

On top of that, and despite the machinations of the right, abortion is actually legal in this country. It might be "controversial", but it's legal.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

OK, let's step away from the abortion issue, as it is not covered by the ACA.

How about contraception?  A basic need for so many Americans, yet the price to pay for it is a hardship on those who need it the most.  
The ACA did mandate that all insurance policies sold had to cover contraception.  No one is forcing any church to pay for something they do not believe in, unless they are an employer.  Any employee must be able to access the coverage they need, not just what the employer wants to pay for.  

We differ on this, and it is your own religious preconceptions that make up most of the disagreement.  Just as the gov't cannot require any religious participation, the ACA says religions cannot require those of differing faith to abide by their set of mores.  If you want to operate a school or a hospital, then you are an employer subject to the same rules as any other.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:40 pm)
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OK, let's step away from the abortion issue, as it is not covered by the ACA.

How about contraception?  A basic need for so many Americans, yet the price to pay for it is a hardship on those who need it the most.  
The ACA did mandate that all insurance policies sold had to cover contraception.  No one is forcing any church to pay for something they do not believe in, unless they are an employer.  Any employee must be able to access the coverage they need, not just what the employer wants to pay for.  

We differ on this, and it is your own religious preconceptions that make up most of the disagreement.  Just as the gov't cannot require any religious participation, the ACA says religions cannot require those of differing faith to abide by their set of mores.  If you want to operate a school or a hospital, then you are an employer subject to the same rules as any other.  

Contraceptives?  Many want to see them made available widely and cheaply, if not freely.  Personally, I think contraception can go a long way to reducing single-mom families!

But many oppose it for moral/religious reasons.  Many more oppose it because they do not believe the government (meaning all of us) should have to pay for it -- because it isn't a cure for a disease, but simply part of "lifestyle choice".

My point all along?  I (and others) WANT an universal health care system and I (and others) are fearful that the delay from 2014 to 2015 might actually be the beginning of the end!!

Are contraceptives the only reason?  NO, of course not!  But given the many roadblocks and given how so many are doing everything they can to 'abort' universal health care -- all I am saying is that we (Obama, actually) don't need to butt heads against such controversial and emotional roadblocks so unnecessarily!

Once we have health care in place -- it will be next to impossible to un-do.  Why?  Because I truly believe the benefits will be immense.  At that time, we can safely debate about any and all expansions -- without fatal consequences to the program itself.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My major point is insurance companies will pay for Viagra, so they should pay for contraception as well.

I see the issue as men making most of the decisions, whether it is concerning their body or a woman's.  All I ask is that women get the same treatment as men.  Contraception is much cheaper than helping single moms with rent and food.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 4:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

BillBab got what he wanted - so, at least someone gets what they want.

The right really enjoys a good mudfight - but they don't like getting dirty.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 5:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:58 pm)
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My major point is insurance companies will pay for Viagra, so they should pay for contraception as well.

I see the issue as men making most of the decisions, whether it is concerning their body or a woman's.  All I ask is that women get the same treatment as men.  Contraception is much cheaper than helping single moms with rent and food.  

Business decisions don't always translate to public policy.

You are still trying to convince people (like me).  My point is that we focus on getting A PROGRAM off the ground.  There are hundreds and hundreds of medical procedures that are needed -- and not controversial.

It's why I keep asking the question:  do people want to win their arguments -- or do they want to see a program actually up and running?  Remember, once we have the program, there is no limit whatsoever about discussions on future expansions.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 6:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:15 pm)
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(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:10 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 4:05 pm)
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(ol-zeke @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:02 pm)
QUOTE
Nope, You are the one who inserted this strawman into the argument.  ACA does nothing to change or require insurance to pay for abortions, despite your initial statement that abortion is the dividing issue.  No Federal money pays for abortion, and there is no requirement that insurance coverage must pay for abortion.  You just have that issue firmly wedged into your brain, and cannot bring up any medical program without parading out your own prejudices.  

IMO, the way you write is exactly the problem with our nation's debate!  No room for compromise.  No caring for those who have nothing.

EVERYTHING you wrote is about you and your beliefs.  ZERO response from you at all about the plight of others -- that I wrote above.   Long on emotions.  Short on caring.

ironic response considering you're quite notorious for this

Case in point is the following response from you


To me, the central debate is whether a human fetus is also a human life.

All the stuff about big government intrusion or women haters, etc. -- are beside the point and patently unhelpful.


http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1163693

doesn't appear to be much room for compromise when it comes to your belief in regard to when life begins

Dennis:

Ironic?  You missed it COMPLETELY!!!

My point (as written above):  we Americans have been arguing over this for 40+ years now.  Why insist on this to cloud a program that is already difficult getting off the ground??

My second point is that it is far better to get a basic but solid health care program off the ground -- folks can always debate what more to add in future years.  But if we lose momentum by pushing too many people too hard -- we may end up with NOTHING -- which is just what the extreme right wants!

And that would be a great pity.

seems like you missed my point since the ironic part was in regard to you specifically
saying to ol-zekeEVERYTHING you wrote is about you and your beliefs.  ZERO response from
you at all about the plight of others -- that I wrote above.   Long on emotions.  Short on
caring.


Oh and the fact that we have discussing this for 40 years where each and every time healthcare
reform has been killed(almost always by Republicans) should tell you that the reason why
its "difficult getting off the ground" is because there are some very powerful special interest
that make it difficult to pass(mainly the health insurance industry and big pharma). The
reason its difficult to pass isn't because people don't really know what should be done but
that the opposition is almost entirely political.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 6:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
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HUGE compromise is in the eye of the beholder.  The truth is still too many people either
unsure about or disagree outright with too many provisions of the program as it now stands.  
The GOP does not control everything and everyone.


How is it in the eye of the beholder when something as central as the mandate comes directly
from Republicans?

Here is lengthy source detailing the Republican origins of the mandate

http://healthcarereform.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004182

I could give countless other documentation(as (I've discussed this many times with many more
documents and its not just on the mandate too. Republican favorites like tort reform are in
ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare or at least form of it)

Facts matter Ben.  You can't ignore the facts

Ben2World said
QUOTE

The truth is still too many people either unsure about or disagree outright with too many provisions of the program as it now stands.


Ya and a good chunk of those people think that the ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare is
government run socialized medicine ,has dealth panels it and so many other idiotic debunked
assumptions about. Now where did they get those inane debunked ideas? Ya so many people do
disagree with it because they have been indoctrinated to believe nonsense about it. Now that
isn't to say there aren't legitimate arguments against the ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare
but the vast majority of the ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare detractors don't focus on
those arguments and if ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare was modified to fix those weak
points they would object to it even more and I would no longer be able to call it
ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare. Fact is that the weak parts of the
ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare were made that way in part thinking that they would more
likely get more Republican votes that way.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

the GOP does not control everything and everyone.


They have enough control to filibuster to record levels. Facts matter Ben. You can't make up
your own reality.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Is the focus on winning the "pro choice" argument once and for -- and make all businesses
pay for it?  Or is it to get a medical program off the ground so millions can benefit?  Focusing on the former will drain away the nation's time and energy for years to come...


So is health care reform free?

Is it your opinion then the ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare will increase our deficits? If
so is that what the CBO has said?

I've already discussed all these topics many times on this forum before


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