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Topic: Unexpectedly, More delays in the ACA< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 6:29 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Dennis:

My points -- which you have continued to miss -- are that:

1.  Both sides can keep arguing that they are right and the other is wrong / political...  and health care might never get off the ground... or...

2.  We can leave some of the emotional stuff off the table -- temporarily -- and get this thing going!

But you -- and too many fellow Americans -- including Obama himself -- are too intent on being "right".  No one wants to work for incremental gains.

And the result is what it is.  More arguments.  More delays.  And quite possibly nothing comes to fruition after all the dust and hot air settles.  Exactly what the extreme right wants.  Over.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 10:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Dennis:

My points -- which you have continued to miss -- are that:


I didn't miss your so called "points" at all. You're "points" are not backed up by facts as I will demonstrate
and once again and as I said I was responding to something specific you said to ol-zeke

Ben2World said
QUOTE

1.  Both sides can keep arguing that they are right and the other is wrong / political...  and health care might never get off the ground... or...


You resort to this talking point quite a bit(The "both side" do it platitude).  What specific facts can you
cite that backs up this narrative that health care reform might not "get off the ground" because both sides
"keep arguing that they are right and the other is wrong"? The bill became law in march 2010 so the question
is will Republicans cooperate with implementing the law and it seems they are doing everything possible to
try and stop its implementation.

As I've stated and pointed out time and time again, with specific documentation, Dems and Obama went all the
way over to the other side to incorporate their very own idea on the mandate as well as other Republicans ideas
in regard to tort reform as well as other Republican ideas such as what Ezra Klein described in the following article


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-kl....ar.html

See again its me providing the facts and documentation while you not only ignore this but then offer fact less
platitudes without any substance behind it.

So if both sides "keep arguing that they are right and the other is wrong" that would include dems but in that
case they could have argued from the start that Republicans were wrong on the mandate and other Republican
ideas currently in ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare but they didn't. Instead they listened to Republican
ideas even when they could have legitimately said they were wrong but they didn't. According to your narrative
that should NOT have actually happened yet it not only happened but its the core of what is in ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare.

Again facts matter Ben. You can't just make implicity claims from some narrative that has no basis in reality.
Well you can certainly try but be prepared for people like me to point out that your narrative.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

2.  We can leave some of the emotional stuff off the table -- temporarily -- and get this thing going!


What do you consider the "emotional" stuff and what is your proof that if these were left off Republicans would go
along with it? Has their been ANY proof that Republican would be willing to do anything other than the obstruction they
have been doing since the start of the Obama administration?


Wait a second. You're acting like we are in the legislation stage but we are passed that. Once again tHe bill passed in
March  2010. ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare is the law of the land

Ben2World said
QUOTE

But you -- and too many fellow Americans -- including Obama himself -- are too intent on being "right".  No one wants to work for incremental gains.


sounds like what you're saying is that since I disagree with you then it follows that I(and anyone who disagrees with
you) is intent on being right.

Well Ben maybe its you who is intent on being right. I mean after all I've documented what I've said and you've still
ignored everything I said and still cling to this narrative that the potential of healthcare reform failing would be
a result, in part, of  Obama and dems not compromising enough, which as I've explained and documented, is pure nonsense.

Besides, as I stated, the bill passed in march 2010 so we are passed the stage of what should be in the bill. Now is the
time to implement it.

again Ben facts matter.  You can try and rewrite history all you want with whatever empty narrative you want
but there is a documented history that can test whatever narrative you claim is true.

Ben2World said
QUOTE

And the result is what it is.  More arguments.  More delays.  And quite possibly nothing comes to fruition after all
the dust and hot air settles.  Exactly what the extreme right wants.  Over.


well first the decision to delay the employer mandate was a result of listening to the other side. This was NOT a
result of being intent on being right from the Obama administration but of listening which is something you essentially
claim the Obama administration isn't doing.

Beyond that what you're essentially saying is that, for example, that Obama and democrats have some responsibility
for Republicans making the decision in Republican states not to participate in the  medicare expansion. That is
ENTIRELY the fault and responsibility of Republicans. Republicans made that decision to make that decision and once
again the bill iS THE LAW.

You seem extremely naive not to recognize that Republicans hostility of ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare is almost
entirely based on political calculation and not some principled stance on ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 04 2013, 11:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You love to cut and paste, Dennis.

But so long as you (and others like you from BOTH sides) stick to the talking point that it is the other side   that is completely at fault -- then you are all stuck with the same ol' non starter.

I asked the question before:  do you want to win the argument or do you want healthcare reform to finally get going?

But I know your answer already.  It is all the other guy's fault.  Of course it is, Dennis.   :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 12:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The only thing I cut and paste is your comments,few phrases from you and the link(its called
documentation to clarify what I'm saying and you act as if this is a negative. No Ben, Your lack
of documentation and specifics is a negative)  Everything else is called facts and substance of
which seem to have a hard time with.

Other than that,  You do have an easy time with repeating your talking points, even as you
ironically accuse me of using talking points, that the problem is both sides but notice
how you can't detail how its both sides because you don't have facts to back that mindless
platitude up.  You just assume its true without anything to back it up.

Now I want to highlight the total arrogance of the following statement

I asked the question before:  do you want to win the argument or do you want healthcare reform to finally
get going?


So in other words if I don't agree with Ben then I'm more concerned with winning the argument rather than
getting "healthcare reform" off the ground.  Well since Ben disagrees with me I could use that same argument
and accuse Ben of being more interested in winning the argument than being concernine about getting "healthcare
reform" off the ground.

OF course the difference between me and Ben, as usual, is that I actually back up what I say with documentation
while Ben, as usual, resorts to mindless narratives that have no basis in reality and if you don't agree
with Ben's factless narrative then its the person who disagrees with Ben that is more concerned with
"winning" the argument.

Now Ben is possible you can give some reply that has some substance and isn't just repeating some
platitude or fact less narrative?

Of course its not. Not for Ben


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 1:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Responses from Dennis (and too many like him from both sides) are exactly the reason why fights can't seem to stop -- compromises can't be made -- and Obamacare is losing momentum.  End of story.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 1:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

and Ben, as predicted, clings to his mindless factless narrative

never mind, as its been pointed out, That I and others have been compromising Ben just keeps on spewing
the narrative because facts don't matter to Ben

the irony is that what is Ben doing? blaming the other person(me) and concedes NOTHING even when facts
are presented to him(just for disagreeing with Ben)

Ben needs to look in the mirror


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 9:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 3:11 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:08 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 1:57 pm)
QUOTE
Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?

If you think the ACA -- which expanded corporate insurance coverage without offering even a watered-down "public option" let alone Single Payer -- was crafted to please the Left, then you live on a different planet than me. The legislation was modeled after Heritage Foundation/Romneycare and ideas that were acceptable to the GOP before it turned more sharply to the right after Barack Hussein Obama became president.

Incremental approach? Every step the Democrats take towards the right the Repubs step away further away to the right, and the goal posts are steadily shifted rightwards. If this president has learned anything the past 4 years, it should be that you can't expect reason or compromise from obstructionists whose overriding goal from the start was the failure of his presidency.

That goes back to what I wrote above.  Some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle.  Those cannot be won over because of a fundamental difference in where they want to take the nation.

So therefore, the focus should be on winning over the moderates.  And with contraception/abortion, etc. being so controversial -- and also being just two of thousands of health care issues -- why create such a big roadblock?

My disgust is that the elite and the middle class get all involved in this arguing -- and in the meantime -- a program needed by so many gets delayed -- which may even mean running out of steam!  Just the way the extreme right wants it.   A pity, no?

OK, now I see what your problem is; you're simply misinformed. You think the ACA requires payment for abortion, when in fact it doesn't.

Well, that clears things up and should remove your entire line of argument in this thread. The "big roadblock" is not what you think it is.

Misinformation (such as you fell prey to) is the foundation of the big roadblock. From the start, the Republican base has been deliberately misinformed into believing all sorts of nonsense about "Obamacare" -- from abortion to "death panels" and, in general, characterizing this modest reform (with its origin on the right) as an extreme marxist curtailment of American freedom.

I would dearly love to see both sides of the aisle work together to make the Affordable Care Act as effective and efficient as it can be in providing health insurance coverage for the American people. Sadly, the "big roadblock" remains; it's composed of the steaming pile of misinformation I described above, and a Republican congress that is absolutely unwilling to cooperate. What's the count so far ... 37 times they voted to repeal ACA in its entirety?

This is not about "winning an argument" or demanding "all or nothing." The legislation passed in 2009 was a compromise from start to finish (which is one of the reasons it could use some improvement). As far all the arguing, the goal of effective & efficient health insurance coverage can only be achieved if it's based on facts in the real world -- not a steaming pile of misinformation shoveled for political advantage and the interests of corporate profit.

The basis for any progress should be an agreed-upon set of facts, and hopefully a shared goal that serves our common interests. The kind of misinformation and obstructionism we have seen is deliberate sabotage to stop such progress.

That is the ROADBLOCK.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 05 2013, 2:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

With the "all money is fungible" argument used to attack employer supported employee healthcare the only logical conclusion is for certain believing employers to ban its employees from having abortions completely. as well as prohibiting  usage of any form of birth control, given that spending any money on those items will be traceable back to the fungible pay the employers gave to their employees. Monthly mandatory blood tests for female employees for the banned substances with monthly wipe tests for the males to test for latex traces would do it. One cannot be too careful when guarding against "sinning" can one? Actually, one can. At least here in the United Sates of America, the Vatican probably notsomuch.

Remarkable that people are still so pouting so many years after Griswold settled the issue. Healthcare is a private matter: which Americans have the SCOTUS decided right to figure out for themselves. Not imposed upon them by either the state or their employer.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct....ZO.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 8:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 04 2013, 9:03 am)
QUOTE
So, is the Obama administration kowtowing to business leaders, as usual?

or are they concerned that many businesses will whittle their workforce to 50 employees and this will have a negative impact on the economy, which would make their prospects in the 2014 elections dim.

I suspect the latter.

I would like to know how all those companies that lobbied ($$$) for waivers feel now that everyone got a waiver :)

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 8:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 2:57 pm)
QUOTE
Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?  Why include such controversial benefits as birth control, abortion, etc.?   Why not start with the more run of the mill stuff -- preventative and basic treatments that are both necessary and non-controversial -- just to get the program off the ground -- and expand from there?

It's almost always easier to give than to take away.  Further down the road, future admin. can always expand the program -- birth control, whatever -- hopefully within budget reason -- and we'll see just how long the GOP can remain the 'party of no'!?!

But I think Obama -- and many on the left -- are too arrogant and/or too impatient.  T's better to start small and push through -- then to start grandiose, lose momentum, and very possibly end up with nothing -- like what happened to Hillary's grand push back in the Clinton years!

Actually what many on "the right" oppose is more government involvement in healthcare

Since involving the govt almost never makes anything cheaper or more efficient

One could easily argue that the govt is much more of the problem than the solution when it comes to healthcare


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Jul. 06 2013, 8:32 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 04 2013, 2:57 pm)
QUOTE
Knowing that some on the right oppose universal health care almost as a matter pf principle...  Obama could have maximized his chance of pushing through and winning by taking a more incremental approach.   Instead of aiming to please the left, why not aim to please / allay both left and center?  Why include such controversial benefits as birth control, abortion, etc.?   Why not start with the more run of the mill stuff -- preventative and basic treatments that are both necessary and non-controversial -- just to get the program off the ground -- and expand from there?

It's almost always easier to give than to take away.  Further down the road, future admin. can always expand the program -- birth control, whatever -- hopefully within budget reason -- and we'll see just how long the GOP can remain the 'party of no'!?!

But I think Obama -- and many on the left -- are too arrogant and/or too impatient.  T's better to start small and push through -- then to start grandiose, lose momentum, and very possibly end up with nothing -- like what happened to Hillary's grand push back in the Clinton years!

Actually what many on "the right" oppose is more government involvement in healthcare

Since involving the govt almost never makes anything cheaper or more efficient

One could easily argue that the govt is much more of the problem than the solution when it comes to healthcare

See mindlessly parroting right-wing ideology without actually being aware of the facts results
in the kind of staggering ignorance you just displayed. Does Europe have much more government
involvement in their healthcare than the US. Yes of course but if your assertion is correct
then their healthcare should be much more costly than the US but is it? It not only is not
more costly but is considerably less costly than healthcare in the US even accounting
for difference in population and size of the economy.  This isn't some obscure fact but a
well known fact but yet surprise surprise billbab is unaware of this like so many things
billbab is unaware of.

For those interested read the link below including the two graphs at the beginning

http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/BriefingNoteUSA2012.pdf

But you know even comparing traditional medicare to private insurance and its clear that
traditional medicare has lower administrative/overhead costs than private insurance as it
should since medicare doesn't have to pay the extra overhead on marketing and padding top
heavy management such as CEO whose goal is to make a profit.


We won’t settle this question, but we will point out evidence that even when you control for
the differences, Medicare is still considerably more cost-efficient. In one study, CBO found
that privately run Medicare plans had 11 percent overhead, compared to 2 percent for
traditional Medicare.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o....wer-pri

It goes without saying that Billbab will not learn anything from the above documentation
and will simply repeat the false narrative that government involvement in healthcare will
make healthcare more expensive.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 11:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some people never learn, never grasp the stupidity of the maxims they chant, and still others continue to get sucked in by the sheer simplicity of merely having to memorize three basic mantras...
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 3:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right-Wing leaders are smart enough to know that European healthcare systems are superior to ours.

They also understand who their base is.

And, they realize that most of their base will not check out their claims.  Sheep don't question all that much.

Pretty smart strategy, actually.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 06 2013, 9:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Jul. 06 2013, 3:46 pm)
QUOTE
Right-Wing leaders are smart enough to know that European healthcare systems are superior to ours.

They also understand who their base is.

And, they realize that most of their base will not check out their claims.  Sheep don't question all that much.

Pretty smart strategy, actually.

Really...do they have $1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse like our Medicaid/Medicare  system (at minimum) ?

Because that number will only get larger as we add $$ to our govt controlled system

I actually spend a fair amount of time in Europe

They come here for serious stuff


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 07 2013, 10:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As GW puts it....don't worry about the laws they pass....they are all subject to change for political purposes

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinion....ry.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 07 2013, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Jul. 06 2013, 9:12 pm)
QUOTE

(Old Frank @ Jul. 06 2013, 3:46 pm)
QUOTE
Right-Wing leaders are smart enough to know that European healthcare systems are superior to ours.

They also understand who their base is.

And, they realize that most of their base will not check out their claims.  Sheep don't question all that much.

Pretty smart strategy, actually.

Really...do they have $1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse like our Medicaid/Medicare  system (at minimum) ?

Because that number will only get larger as we add $$ to our govt controlled system

I actually spend a fair amount of time in Europe

They come here for serious stuff

Considering all the time you spend in Europe, how strong is the ground swell there to adopt our system of health care?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 07 2013, 1:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

billbab said
QUOTE

Really...do they have $1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse like our Medicaid/Medicare  system (at minimum) ?


back up that absurd claim of "$1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse" with a reliable source(that means no
uber right-wing partisan hack cite like the Heritage foundation?

Here let me cite the following just for 2007 on medicare


Total Medicare outlays were $431 billion in 2007, or 19 percent of total national health care expenditures.
If one assumes that fraud is equally prevalent in Medicare and other types of health care, that would make
the Medicare share of the NHCAA's $68 billion fraud estimate $13 billion. And $13 billion in fraud divided
by $431 billion in total Medicare outlays would be 3 percent of total Medicare expenditures — a far cry from
Coburn's 20 percent. (A rate of 20 percent is "possible, but I don't think it's very plausible," Saccoccio said.)


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o....r-goes-

your 1 trillion # would be more than double the entire spending on medicare for 2007 and as you can see
for the 2007 the fraud estimate was 13 billion not 1 trillion.


billbab said
QUOTE

Because that number will only get larger as we add $$ to our govt controlled system

I actually spend a fair amount of time in Europe


LOL!!. Talking out of your arse again billbab.  So all the time you spend in Europe has shown you that Europe has
less government involvement in their healthcare system than we do? Think now think BillBab, lets assume just for
the sake of argument that 1 trillion # is correct, then that would mean according to you that European healhcare
has far less fraud and abuse but once again does European healthcare have more or less government involvement
healthcare? Obviously more and much more so once again that would contradict your underlying argument that more
government involvement is the cause of such problem such as fraud.

Do you ever put more than a few seconds thought into your responses?

But Frank is right, you are one of the mindless GOP sheep who mindlessly parrot the GOP's marching orders.
Without people like you billbab there would be no GOP.

Oh and for the record the Aca has put in plenty of additional safeguards against fraud

http://www.usatoday.com/story....2393561

http://www.npr.org/blogs....weapons


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 07 2013, 7:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are a lot of links out there that compare medical care/costs/access/attitudes/etc. in our country to others.  

Several have been previously  posted to this site.

Unless I have some confidence in the researcher/author's credibility, I am always skeptical about their data and conclusions (including the one below).

But, most agree on this point: We have the best medical care in the world, if you can afford it; otherwise, not so much.  

This link (referenced above, and which I think has been posted before), was pretty concise and summarized several points made by others.

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

".....Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's....."

(Since I am a fiscal conservative, I found the GDP figures very interesting, if true).  


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 9:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 07 2013, 1:05 pm)
QUOTE
billbab said
QUOTE

Really...do they have $1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse like our Medicaid/Medicare  system (at minimum) ?


back up that absurd claim of "$1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse" with a reliable source(that means no
uber right-wing partisan hack cite like the Heritage foundation?

Here let me cite the following just for 2007 on medicare


Total Medicare outlays were $431 billion in 2007, or 19 percent of total national health care expenditures.
If one assumes that fraud is equally prevalent in Medicare and other types of health care, that would make
the Medicare share of the NHCAA's $68 billion fraud estimate $13 billion. And $13 billion in fraud divided
by $431 billion in total Medicare outlays would be 3 percent of total Medicare expenditures — a far cry from
Coburn's 20 percent. (A rate of 20 percent is "possible, but I don't think it's very plausible," Saccoccio said.)


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o....r-goes-

your 1 trillion # would be more than double the entire spending on medicare for 2007 and as you can see
for the 2007 the fraud estimate was 13 billion not 1 trillion.


billbab said
QUOTE

Because that number will only get larger as we add $$ to our govt controlled system

I actually spend a fair amount of time in Europe


LOL!!. Talking out of your arse again billbab.  So all the time you spend in Europe has shown you that Europe has
less government involvement in their healthcare system than we do? Think now think BillBab, lets assume just for
the sake of argument that 1 trillion # is correct, then that would mean according to you that European healhcare
has far less fraud and abuse but once again does European healthcare have more or less government involvement
healthcare? Obviously more and much more so once again that would contradict your underlying argument that more
government involvement is the cause of such problem such as fraud.

Do you ever put more than a few seconds thought into your responses?

But Frank is right, you are one of the mindless GOP sheep who mindlessly parrot the GOP's marching orders.
Without people like you billbab there would be no GOP.

Oh and for the record the Aca has put in plenty of additional safeguards against fraud

http://www.usatoday.com/story....2393561

http://www.npr.org/blogs....weapons

Actually it was President Obama when he said they would pay for the paltry $900 billion ACA by eliminating Medicare fraud!


But back to the main topic...ask yourself hw loudly folks on the left would be screaming if MR had won the election and then delayed the employer mandate  :laugh:


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 12:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

BillBab said
QUOTE

Actually it was President Obama when he said they would pay for the paltry $900 billion ACA by eliminating Medicare fraud!


'paltry $900 billion ACA'

Am I surprised that you don't know that its paid for?
No.

Pop quiz Billbab, would repealing the ACA result in higher or lower deficits compared to not
repealing the ACA?

BTW what you said was ".do they have $1 trillion in waste fraud and abuse like our
Medicaid/Medicare  system (at minimum)" which you provided no sources to back up but as you
can see I provided ample documentation showing that appears to be way false

BillBab said
QUOTE

But back to the main topic...ask yourself hw loudly folks on the left would be screaming if MR had won the election and then delayed the employer mandate


If you mean the same mandate in which ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare was modeled after?
You mean the same Romney in which the MIT economists(Jonathan Gruber) who one of the main
Architects, if the main Architect, of both RomneyCare and ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare
who said they are essentially the "same f*c*i*g bill"?

http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article....upreme-

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011....ser.php

The question is why is the right-wing screaming now? Shouldn't they like the delay?

Or ask yourself this question, if Romney would have won the Republican primaries way back in
2008(instead of McCain) and then went on to beat Obama and then pushed his RomneyCare as the
national healthcare(which would be essentially the ACA or as I like to say  ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare)
do you think for one second the right-wing would even be close to outraged as they about the
ACA? OF course not. The vast majority of the right-wing would fall in line(as they almost always do)


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Actually it was President Obama when he said they would pay for the paltry $900 billion ACA by eliminating Medicare fraud!


No, actually he didn't. Something that overly simplistic came from opponents fantasy just like Death Squads and Plug Pulling.

OR: Prove it with a quote. For comparison maybe check out the CBO scoring of the actual two pieces of legislation for how the bill WAS, in reality world, paid for.

Here ya' go: http://cbo.gov/publication/41877
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 2:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 11 2013, 1:50 pm)
QUOTE
No, actually he didn't. Something that overly simplistic came from opponents fantasy just like Death Squads and Plug Pulling.

OR: Prove it with a quote. For comparison maybe check out the CBO scoring of the actual two pieces of legislation for how the bill WAS, in reality world, paid for.

Here ya' go: http://cbo.gov/publication/41877

It is a very complicated piece of machinery…. just one component…..

Those costs would be partly offset by receipts
or savings, totaling $257 billion over the 10-year budget window, from four sources: net
revenues from the excise tax on high-premium insurance plans, totaling $149 billion;
penalty payments by uninsured individuals, which would amount to $15 billion; penalty
payments by employers whose workers received subsidies via the exchanges, which
would total $28 billion; and other budgetary effects, mostly on tax revenues, associated
with the expansion of federally subsidized insurance, which would reduce deficits by
$65 billion.

My take, another means-tested program paid for on the backs of the middle class.

Via

Reducing employer sponsored coverage, and having the worker pay more out-of-pocket for health care; and of course, taxing the working man more…..was I close?

The real death squad is coming for the Middle Class!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 3:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Close"? No since there's nothing in the legislation that requires a reduction of employer sponsored coverage.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 3:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

nothing that REQUIRES a reduction ....as long as they are willing to pay the tax

http://www.nytimes.com/2013....l&_r=1&
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