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Topic: Judge blocks new Wisconsin abortion law< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 08 2013, 11:41 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

First some background. Just like so many other states run by Republicans, Wisconsin is hell bent in ramming
down extreme abortion legislation.


MADISON, Wis. — Wisconsin Senate Republicans abruptly shut off debate Wednesday before a dramatic vote in which
they approved a bill that would require women seeking an abortion to first undergo an ultrasound.

Democrats tried in vain to be recognized to speak as the roll call vote proceeded despite their objections.
Republican Senate President Mike Ellis repeatedly banged his gavel so forcefully he broke the base. He shouted
at Democrats, saying they were out of order and would not be allowed to speak.

"You're interrupting a roll call and that will not be tolerated, sit down!" Ellis yelled at Democratic Minority
Leader Chris Larson.

"I understand you're afraid of this debate," Larson said, his microphone turned off.

The bill passed 17-15 with all Republicans in support and Democrats against. It now heads to the Assembly, which
was expected to pass it on Thursday. Gov. Scott Walker said Tuesday he would sign it into law.


http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/health/211187071.html


Here is obnoxious republican Mike Ellis drunk with power(video of him acting just way over the top)

http://www.rawstory.com/rs....mocrats
^^ Will have to remove the "br" to see link


well scott walker signed it into law but now a judge blocks(temporary) the new Wisconsin abortion law

http://www.foxnews.com/politic....estnews


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 1:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's an easier to open link for video of Mike Ellis completely losing his marbles.

http://youtu.be/2iRmaT9KIl4


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 7:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The angry white men don't have much interest in democracy. We all know what has a head but no brains and often leads men to make poor decisions. I can't really think of a better word for these guys.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 8:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

OMG!!!

Requiring doctors to have admitting privileges is SOOOOOOO extreme

Women have a God given right to lower quality medical care!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 8:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If you think that this is about medical care, you are as delusional as you are misinformed.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:35 am)
QUOTE
OMG!!!

Requiring doctors to have admitting privileges is SOOOOOOO extreme

Women have a God given right to lower quality medical care!

^^ This tells you everything you need to know about the right-wing

The law requires an vaginal ultrasound for every woman that wants to choose to have an abortion
yet look at Billbab's response. Remember now the BillBab's of the world think of themselves
as being small government conservatives yet look how comfortable at this massive government
intrusion. So much hypocrisy


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Looks like the same ugly law Rick Perry forced through down here in Texas.  During the same legislative session, Perry vetoed a bill to ban texting while driving, because that would be government overreach, and an attempt to micromanage adult behavior.  Talk about not getting it.  To me, the vaginal ultrasound law is analogous to a law requiring men who come in for a vasectomy to be required to have a full rectal exam.  An unnecessary and invasive exam which has absolutely nothing to do with the procedure itself, which no physician would recommend, but that the government mandates.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 11:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:34 am)
QUOTE
Looks like the same ugly law Rick Perry forced through down here in Texas.  During the same legislative session, Perry vetoed a bill to ban texting while driving, because that would be government overreach, and an attempt to micromanage adult behavior.  Talk about not getting it.  To me, the vaginal ultrasound law is analogous to a law requiring men who come in for a vasectomy to be required to have a full rectal exam.  An unnecessary and invasive exam which has absolutely nothing to do with the procedure itself, which no physician would recommend, but that the government mandates.

There is still the fundamental difference that abortion involves a another person -- wholly separate from the decision maker(s).

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 12:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 09 2013, 11:55 am)
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There is still the fundamental difference that abortion involves a another person -- wholly separate from the decision maker(s).

Ben, not going there again with you, not until you take some basic biology classes.  But, like it or not, in the United States today a pregnant woman has guaranteed constitutional rights, a fetus does not.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 12:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I never understood this about extreme rightsies.  They claim 'they" want less government intrusion into our personal lives, (I whole heartily agree with that concept) -

BUT "they" want our Government to intrude and say NO gay marriage or this ANTI (choice) abortion idea - sorry can't have it both way folks....
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 12:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:55 am)
QUOTE

(Trinity @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:34 am)
QUOTE
Looks like the same ugly law Rick Perry forced through down here in Texas.  During the same legislative session, Perry vetoed a bill to ban texting while driving, because that would be government overreach, and an attempt to micromanage adult behavior.  Talk about not getting it.  To me, the vaginal ultrasound law is analogous to a law requiring men who come in for a vasectomy to be required to have a full rectal exam.  An unnecessary and invasive exam which has absolutely nothing to do with the procedure itself, which no physician would recommend, but that the government mandates.

There is still the fundamental difference that abortion involves a another person -- wholly separate from the decision maker(s).

Sadly, no. That thing is not a "person" in any non-trivial sense of the word.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 12:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Jul. 09 2013, 9:07 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 09 2013, 11:55 am)
QUOTE
There is still the fundamental difference that abortion involves a another person -- wholly separate from the decision maker(s).

Ben, not going there again with you, not until you take some basic biology classes.  But, like it or not, in the United States today a pregnant woman has guaranteed constitutional rights, a fetus does not.

Firstly, no one has to go anywhere on this forum.  It is a free debate.

Secondly, basic biology tells you in absolutely certain terms that a fetus (zygote) is created by two cells from two different people.  A zygote is certainly not at all like the hair or nail cells of the mother.  How sad that those who want to have complete control over the lives of others will so ignore basic biology!

Thirdly, the vast majority of American people DO NOT SUPPORT abortion on demand.   Google most any authoritative sources.  Why?  Are the vast majority of Americans misogynists?  Of course not!  Then why?  Because they recognize that a fetus is a different person from his or her mother.  This doesn't mean all the naysayers hold the same view or that they see equal rights between women and fetus.  Even I don't see equal rights -- but I (and most Americans) do recognize the fetuses as separate persons.

Try murdering a pregnant woman and convince the judge and jury that you killed just one person and destroyed some property!

So there you have it.  There are still persons in our country that are NOT adequately protected by the law!  I am all for change here -- but ONLY within a lawful context and free debate.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 09 2013, 9:14 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:55 am)
QUOTE

(Trinity @ Jul. 09 2013, 8:34 am)
QUOTE
Looks like the same ugly law Rick Perry forced through down here in Texas.  During the same legislative session, Perry vetoed a bill to ban texting while driving, because that would be government overreach, and an attempt to micromanage adult behavior.  Talk about not getting it.  To me, the vaginal ultrasound law is analogous to a law requiring men who come in for a vasectomy to be required to have a full rectal exam.  An unnecessary and invasive exam which has absolutely nothing to do with the procedure itself, which no physician would recommend, but that the government mandates.

There is still the fundamental difference that abortion involves a another person -- wholly separate from the decision maker(s).

Sadly, no. That thing is not a "person" in any non-trivial sense of the word.

You are entitled to your view just as much as I am entitled to mine.  But we have gone through this before.  The vast majority of Americans DO NOT SUPPORT abortion on demand.

If a fetus is not a person -- why the restriction on women's choice at all?  Do we have a hundred million + misogynists in our country?  No.  The majority support differing degrees of restrictions because they recognize a fetus as a separate person.  The differing degrees of restrictions reflect different views on the rights of a pregnant mother versus her child/fetus.

So, you are still entitled to your view, of course -- but recognize the fact that your view about a fetus being a 'thing' is a distinct minority view.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

here we go again

So Ben

i'm curious

is it your position that it is a person at the moment of fertilization?


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(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 09 2013, 10:25 am)
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here we go again

So Ben

i'm curious

is it your position that it is a person at the moment of fertilization?

Yes, a separate person.  After all, can a woman (or a man) create purely from his or her own cells  a whole another person?  No.  There is a fundamental difference between our own cells -- and the fusion of our cell and somebody else's.  It's a whole different creation that defies "ownership".

That said, do I believe that a fetus has the same rights as his or her mother?  No.

A more honest debate is one that tries to determine a mother's rights vs. those of a fetus.  For example, does a fetus' right to life trump the life of his or her mother?  Most all will say "no".  If the mother's life is endangered by her pregnancy, most all will support the termination thereof.  But what about other circumstances?

To me, debating those "other circumstances" is terribly difficult -- but more honest than ignoring basic biology and pretending a zygote that cannot be created by just the mother and grows into a fetus and into a baby...  is somehow no different from a mother's own hair cells or nail cells.  A mother (or any other individual) has every right to protect herself and pursue her well being as she sees fit.  But she has no "ownership" of another human being.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 2:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok ben so follow me here

if you're correct that at the moment of fertilization a person comes into existence then
then it should follow that we should pass laws to stop anything from preventing that
fertilization from happening correct?


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(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 09 2013, 11:35 am)
QUOTE
Ok ben so follow me here

if you're correct that at the moment of fertilization a person comes into existence then
then it should follow that we should pass laws to stop anything from preventing that
fertilization from happening correct?

I'm with you here.  In an ideal world, we'd all be in full control of our every action and would never have sex if we didn't want a baby.  But it's not an ideal world -- and sex is great -- so let's not put idiotic  hurdles in front of people and increasing their chances of backing into tight corners...

Everyone needs to be educated.  Don't create a new human being if you are not fully committed to caring and nurturing one. And here are all the means at your disposal to do the right thing...

I see absolutely no moral issues with enjoying sex while preventing the creation of life because the couple involved are not ready or willing to have any babies.   But let's all refrain from the falsehood that a fetus is just a 'thing'.  As above, kill a pregnant woman and tell the judge it's a murder of one plus property damage??  Obscene, really, and we all know that won't get you far at all...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 3:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here it comes: the Catholic dogma - again.

Please spare us the dogmatic, idiotic, uninformed crap, Ben. We all know you're a lunatic on this subject.

Fact is: Your church is also against contraception. They even have a lawsuit on that right now against the government. If you really want to make a difference in this argument, go work on your beloved Roman Catholic Church!

They are part of the problem, as you seem to consistently avoid talking about!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 3:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 09 2013, 2:50 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 09 2013, 11:35 am)
QUOTE
Ok ben so follow me here

if you're correct that at the moment of fertilization a person comes into existence then
then it should follow that we should pass laws to stop anything from preventing that
fertilization from happening correct?

I'm with you here.  In an ideal world, we'd all be in full control of our every action and would never have sex if we didn't want a baby.  But it's not an ideal world -- and sex is great -- so let's not put idiotic  hurdles in front of people and increasing their chances of backing into tight corners...

Everyone needs to be educated.  Don't create a new human being if you are not fully committed to caring and nurturing one. And here are all the means at your disposal to do the right thing...

I see absolutely no moral issues with enjoying sex while preventing the creation of life because the couple involved are not ready or willing to have any babies.   But let's all refrain from the falsehood that a fetus is just a 'thing'.  As above, kill a pregnant woman and tell the judge it's a murder of one plus property damage??  Obscene, really, and we all know that won't get you far at all...

Surprise surprise you totally avoided the point because addressing the point would lead the
full logical consequence of your position that a person comes into existence at fertilization
which would reveal some other extreme positions.

Lets me ask you another question that I'm sure you will sidestep. If a person comes into
existence at the moment of fertilization, as you believe, then terminating the fertilization
process would be murdering a person according to your argument correct?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 3:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here is a very thoughtful Christian response to the new restrictions that are going to be enacted here in Texas: http://www.baptiststandard.com/opinion....acebook
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 3:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben, I really appreciate your point of view, but as international as your perspective is, your opinion here is so CATHOLIC! When an asteroid wipes out a planet full of life, is god being immoral? Killing is as much a part of human life as sex and dying. The thing that divides the "killers" from "essential services" is what we kill. Your values lead to overpopulation, a potential extinction of our species and most others. My values lead to sustainability for humanity with a minimum of extinctions for the ecosystems that your god created, or more pragmatically sustain our species.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 3:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Birth control is intelligent. Expecting abstinence is a pretty stupid idea in a culture that has never held back from anything that was possible. Even Catholic priests are not so good at abstinence.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 4:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Confusing one religious doctrine with American law leads nowhere productive. It's even worse when you toss in non-relvant code words.

Anyone not desiring a medical procedure is free to NOT have that medical procedure, based on superstition or anything else. NOT free to impose that religious viewpoint on their fellow nonbeliever Americans.

You want fish on Fridays? Chow down. Legally enforcing that on others here is a no-no.
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(Ecocentric @ Jul. 09 2013, 12:53 pm)
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Birth control is intelligent. .....

And often, until June 7, 1965, ILLEGAL.

Still people obviously pining for those "good old days".
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 4:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The secular viewpoint is well represented here. The Catholic viewpoint on reality barely passed the grade in the fifties thanks to Teilhard de Chardin, they failed to deal realistically with earlier dissidents like Luther or Galileo. Falling back on old school thought is doing little for your cherished beliefs. Ethics evolve to deal with the realities of the present.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Having grown up in the Catholic Church I'd like to point out that outside of the institutionalized dogma that most people that today call themselves Catholic support Birth Control and Abortion in their real lives. Catholics tend to be more educated and informed than many other denominations in my experience.

That said one woman goes to a back alley and gets a botched abortion because of these new mysoginistic laws each and everyone of these "Small gubment" hypocrites has blood on their hands. Fortunately the courts care about the health of women more than pandering politicians.

HSF says it all Ben. You want to counsel women behind the doors of your chucrch to choose having a baby over terminating the life of a few cells that don't remotely resemble a human being that's fine. Out here in the real world I'll humbly suggest you stuff that mythological arrogance you know where. I am free of your religion as is our Republic and the courts will see to it the tyranny of any majority doesn't start putting women in the morgue. ANYONE that loves any woman on any level should be disgusted by this kwap. ANYONE that calls themself a "conservative" needs to remember that suicide and abortion were deemed abominations by men, not any Gods and that the reason for that was to compell slaves to endure suffering and produce more workers to suffer, nothing else.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 5:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Jul. 09 2013, 12:50 pm)
QUOTE
Ben, I really appreciate your point of view, but as international as your perspective is, your opinion here is so CATHOLIC! When an asteroid wipes out a planet full of life, is god being immoral? Killing is as much a part of human life as sex and dying. The thing that divides the "killers" from "essential services" is what we kill. Your values lead to overpopulation, a potential extinction of our species and most others. My values lead to sustainability for humanity with a minimum of extinctions for the ecosystems that your god created, or more pragmatically sustain our species.

Actually, there is overlap, but not the same.  Protecting human lives is not just Catholic.  And my views toward contraceptives are definitely not Catholic.

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(double cabin @ Jul. 09 2013, 2:00 pm)
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That said one woman goes to a back alley...

Yeah, we hear that line of thought a lot.  But how artificial and how arbitrary -- that once a baby is born -- no matter how inconvenient or how much the mother no longer wants her baby -- she is still held accountable!

And she should be.  As should the father.  But using "birth" as the "line of life" -- imagining that inside, it's a thing, but outside, it's instantly a human life -- that has no basis in biology -- and is absolutely and completely arbitrary.

Arrogant?  I realize some might think so.  But to many of us, their view of a fetus as "a thing" -- that is itself arrogant.


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(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 09 2013, 12:32 pm)
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Lets me ask you another question that I'm sure you will sidestep. If a person comes into existence at the moment of fertilization, as you believe, then terminating the fertilization
process
would be murdering a person according to your argument correct?

Would do you mean by 'terminating the fertilization process'?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 09 2013, 5:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Jul. 09 2013, 12:46 pm)
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Here is a very thoughtful Christian response to the new restrictions that are going to be enacted here in Texas: http://www.baptiststandard.com/opinion....acebook

I have serious doubts about the automatic assumption that restricting abortion on demand will lead to more babies.  Not if we educate people -- empowering them in both knowledge and access to safe and effective contraception!

Or does that Christian author assume that women take to abortion so lightly?  Because my view is that abortion can be quite serious experience for some women -- most would rather rely on contraception rather than outright abortion as their preferred form of birth control!


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