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Question: Snowden:  Who's Helping and Who's Not :: Total Votes:3
Poll choices Votes Statistics
BG - Countries at the forefront of democracy are on our side! 0  [0.00%]
BG - Countries helping Snowden just want to stick it to us. 1  [33.33%]
BG - Some other reason -- please explain. 0  [0.00%]
GG - Western countries are in cahoots with us or cowards. 0  [0.00%]
GG - Only countries with little to lose dare defy us. 1  [33.33%]
GG - Some other reason -- please explain. 1  [33.33%]
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Topic: Snowden:  Who's Helping and Who's Not, Something Very Wrong with the Picture?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 7:57 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting (and perhaps illuminating) to see who's helping Snowden and who isn't:

Who's helping Snowden?  China/HK, Russia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba, Venezuela, Wikileaks...

Who's NOT helping Snowden?  Britain, France, Germany, Portugal, Spain...


We all see the same list in the media -- what's your view of Snowden -- bad guy (BG) or  good guy (GG)?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I believe that Snowden is a good guy that is exposing an out of control government.  Patriot or traitor is always defined by your point of view.  George Washington was a traitor to King George.  Sometimes it takes a lot of bravery to stand up against what you think is wrong.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nutty guy. He turned down THIS woman?

http://www.nypost.com/p....3v7BibM

Who's he holding out for Monica Lewinsky?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol....me.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 10 2013, 6:30 pm)
QUOTE
Nutty guy. He turned down THIS woman?

http://www.nypost.com/p....3v7BibM

Who's he holding out for Monica Lewinsky?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol....me.html

HSF -- gee thanks... can you at least vote drop in a vote?  :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 10 2013, 6:40 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 10 2013, 6:30 pm)
QUOTE
Nutty guy. He turned down THIS woman?

http://www.nypost.com/p....3v7BibM

Who's he holding out for Monica Lewinsky?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol....me.html

HSF -- gee thanks... can you at least vote drop in a vote?  :D

Done!

"Other", obviously.

ETA: hey! There's two "other"s. Ben, you trying to butterfly the "other" vote? When were you last in Florida hmmmm?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What?  GG other but no explanation?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 9:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I voted "He's a cool guy." He looks like the lead singer of Coldplay.

What's the story on China, anyway? Without all us fat, lazy, spoiled and hypocritical American sadsacks, what are they going to do with all that stuff they're making?

Hey.
We got Brimstone. Where's Fire?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 10:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 10 2013, 6:56 pm)
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What?  GG other but no explanation?

Just"other".
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 11:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Does what Snowden leaked really come as a surprise to foreign governments?

Even the unelected leaders are politicians, and methinks their outrage is mostly contrived for public consumption. If a country actually provides sanctuary to Snowden it will be a calculation based on self-interest & national interest.

I did not vote in this poll because I reject the BG/GG concept, which is a wrong-headed approach to understanding the dynamics at work here.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 11:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't get to vote, of course, but my own sentiment is actually a combination of #2 and #4.   Yes, this is a juicy chance for many 'long suffering' underdogs to stick it to the US -- probably without too much cost.  Notice how NONE of the South American countries have actually done anything (that we know of anyway) to get Snowden into their respective countries! There seems a bit of 'empty posturing' to declare, yeah, we'll give you asylum, but you've gotta make it here on your own first.

As for #4, take a look here.  WOW, Britain exerting this much effort just to "help" Sweden on a sex case?  I don't think so. Some of these western democracies are definitely in cahoots -- and don't take kindly to any whistle blower. It's one thing to get on the soapbox and hurl abuse at countries like China -- but that doesn't mean they want to be measured by the standards they use to measure others!

So is Snowden a "good guy" or a "bad guy"?  Most likely neither -- or a combination of both, if you will.  So yes, just a simple poll for a backpacker forum to reflect whether you are rooting for his capture or his freedom.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 10 2013, 11:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm rooting for the preservation of civil liberties and a national security establishment guided by that principle.

I don't especially care what happens to Snowden, except in that context. He likely knew the consequences of his actions and believed it was worth the price.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 12:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 10 2013, 8:57 pm)
QUOTE
I'm rooting for the preservation of civil liberties and a national security establishment guided by that principle.

Oftentimes, ideals get twisted and hijacked by those in authority -- top leaders as well as middling bureaucrats.

To use what might seem an extreme case but a sad reality nevertheless... the "dictatorship of the proletariat" was meant to preserve freedom for the masses...

And more than a few theocracies begun with the expressed ideals of freedom, equality and justice also ended ugly...

The best way to preserve our own institutions and liberties as they are is to remain vigilant -- and somewhat skeptical -- rather than to assume "they who wield power"  have our best interest at heart...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 12:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 10 2013, 8:57 pm)
QUOTE
I'm rooting for the preservation of civil liberties and a national security establishment guided by that principle.

I don't especially care what happens to Snowden, except in that context. He likely knew the consequences of his actions and believed it was worth the price.

If he had believed it was worth the price, he'd have accepted the price instead of trying to avoid it.

Just saying.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 12:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If you can have your cake and eat it too, go for it.

But he's paying a price even if he finds sanctuary.

OTOH, the fame and acclaim he's gained (in some circles) may in his own estimation exceed that price.

Who knows, and I don't much care. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, this isn't about Snowden. The focus on one man diverts focus from some critically important questions that should be thoroughly examined.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 12:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 10 2013, 9:31 pm)
QUOTE
The focus on one man diverts focus from some critically important questions that should be thoroughly examined.

Far from ideal, it is true, but how does thorough examination commence if no one asks the critically important questions?

None of us know the inner workings -- but if the surveillance is as massive and systematic as claimed -- then they must have been built and run and perfected for a while now.  Given the alleged scale, I do not believe these are recent doings of rogue bureaucrats -- that Snowden could have gone through internal channels to redress.  After all, if they have been around for some time already (again, assumed from the sheer scale) -- then why hasn't anyone else -- esp. insiders and not just a contractor -- blown the internal whistle??

Lots of unanswered questions -- but I wouldn't automatically assume that the system is fine and it is this one man at fault -- as Tom above seemed to imply.  My two cents.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 1:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have mixed feelings about Snowden.  On the one hand, I'm glad that someone on the inside dared to expose the massive data collection that is being perpetrated against U.S. citizens.  On the other hand, he apparently released a lot of information about our international collection efforts, some of which could be very harmful to us.

The NSA has always shared selected information with our allies, which may be why Western Europe isn't quite ready to throw us under the bus.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 3:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The dudes fifteen minutes were up a long time ago. He doesn't deserve the notoriety that he is getting. I don't think that he is a bad guy, I just think he was stupid. Will anything good come from this?

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