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Topic: Questions About Obamacare, Can't Even Pick My Own Doctor!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 10:41 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From Fixing Affordable Care Act:

Disinformation about Obamacare, now being broadcast in slick TV ads, is not the way to help enact and improve the program, which after all is the law of the land.

"The American people have serious questions and concerns about the negative impact of Obamacare," said Tim Phillips, president of the group. "They are waking up to higher premiums and fewer choices, but are being told by the White House and outside groups that everything is just fine.

It also would be nice to think that the American people aren't easily duped by shameless propaganda. But it's been shown again and again, since the days of Joseph McCarthy, that irrational, unsubstantiated fear is among the most potent of weapons in the American political arsenal.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 10:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why, pray tell, are your posts always so difficult to unravel and your own political view so vague?

Is this by design, or because you don't really know what you're talking about?

Your title and your quotes seem to indicate that this article is about the deficiencies of the ACA, when, in fact, it's about the disinformation programs run by outfits like Americans for Prosperity.

So where do you come down on this? What's your agenda, bub?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 10:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If you got an agenda to push -- you aim for effect, not accuracy.  Bush and his thing about Iraqi WMD?

Obama tells us about a transparent government and roundly condemns China for computer attacks / espionage.  And his response when "outted" about our own attacks and espionage? "Hey, everybody does it", he retorts!

Yes, it is a sad -- disinformation planted by all different segments of our political spectrum can kill good policies and good programs needed by our nation.  Yes, some voters may be 'shallow and emotional' -- disinformation works -- but then, how many politicians today have the personal stature to instill trust, confidence and respect to rise above the noise?  Obama?  Boehner?  Pelosi?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 11 2013, 9:55 pm)
QUOTE
Obama tells us about a transparent government...
I can address this in one of your numerous threads on the subject, but really - do you honestly expect Obama, or anyone in our government, to be "transparent" about espionage? Are you that naive?

Obama's statement on transparency did not include spying - I'm pretty sure about that.

And do you ever notice - on that particular thread especially, the “Democracy in America ” one - the craven jackals you're towing in your wake? Do you really think that "Cato boy" Will Wilkinson is making any points whatsoever in that quote about how "Obama...conclude[d] that America is not after all safe for democracy"?

Some people, I think, just genuinely deserve the enmity I lob in their direction. They're that stupid.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 8:25 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 11 2013, 9:55 pm)
QUOTE
Obama tells us about a transparent government...
I can address this in one of your numerous threads on the subject, but really - do you honestly expect Obama, or anyone in our government, to be "transparent" about espionage? Are you that naive?

Obama's statement on transparency did not include spying - I'm pretty sure about that.

And do you ever notice - on that particular thread especially, the “Democracy in America ” one - the craven jackals you're towing in your wake? Do you really think that "Cato boy" Will Wilkinson is making any points whatsoever in that quote about how "Obama...conclude[d] that America is not after all safe for democracy"?

Having read my posts all these years, are you so dense as to think that I am at all surprised about our country's cyber defense AND ATTACK capabilities?   And a month or two ago when our government and our media were raging on about Chinese cyber attacks against us -- did you not read any of my responses -- that we do the same -- and moralizing is just hypocritical?  But many folks here licked it all up -- thinking that we are the good guys, they are the bad guys.

But what I do expect from our leader is forthrightness.  What I do expect is that we have a leader we can trust to do what is right to safeguard our freedom -- let the experts in intelligence do their jobs quietly -- and NOT make political hot air that only paint us as hypocrites!

For this and other reasons, where disinformation rears its ugly head -- it is damn effective because too many people don't trust Obama (and our other political leaders).

So again, Gabby, you missed the point entirely.  It is not the surprise about our cyber capability.  It is about a leader who cuts down his own credibility with unnecessary lies.  If you are too blindly loyal -- try this -- compare these two sets:

Obama:

Do we need cyber attack and defense capability?  Yes, I believe so.
Does Obama need to lie to us about transparent government and then condemn others over what we ourselves do?  No -- why even mention it publicly??  He lost a lot of trust, even when what he did (building up the espionage) was in fact necessary.

Bush, Sr.:

Did we need to raise taxes?  Yes, I truly believe so.
Did Bush, Sr. need to lie to us by saying 'read my lips, no new taxes'?  No.  He lost our trust, even if raising taxes was necessary!

See how lying about doing something that is actually necessary still scores you a big negative?  Disinformation is wrong.  But our leaders didn't help themselves in their failure to rise above the noise!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And you missed the point as well. The "transparency directive" was not about anything other than "open government". Anyone who actually thought Obama was speaking to dismantling intelligence operations is playing with much less than a full deck. I suspect that most knew that. The right is just trying to confuse and conflate, as usual, in order to obtain the largest "effect".

I fully agree with you on the need for less spying and spook crap, but I don't like the way you are "feeding the frenzy" on these issues just because the right is "pumping up the volume" on pseudo issues they're attempting to use as political wedges. Espionage - and American intelligence efforts - have been around for a very, very long time indeed. Why all the fury now? Because the right doesn't have anything else to use.

If Obama attacks the Chinese for "cyber espionage", any adult knows its a play for diplomatic leverage, and nothing new. We have been doing "cyber espionage" for some time - we were the guys who "blew up" the Iranian centrifuges, aren't we? I don't like it, you don't like it - but do you really think this kind of thing is going to end because you want "transparency in government"? It won't end until we stop playing the spook games, and that may be a very long time.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Look at the way the GOP is using the delay in the corporate mandate. Yeah, the Obama administration would have been better advised to call a press conference and announce it instead of trying to hide it under the news cycle. But, presuming he did do that, what would the GOP have done with that? What do you think the WH thought they'd do with it? What are they doing with it anyway? Let me tell you: the economy is better (though not nearly enough), the deficit is last year's news (at least for now), and all they got is the ACA and the NSA and some dumba$$ crap about Obama investigating Fox and the Tea Party. Even that isn't playing well, because it's trumped-up crap.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 8:45 pm)
QUOTE
And you missed the point as well. The "transparency directive" was not about anything other than "open government". Anyone who actually thought Obama was speaking to dismantling intelligence operations is playing with much less than a full deck. I suspect that most knew that. The right is just trying to confuse and conflate, as usual, in order to obtain the largest "effect".

I fully agree with you on the need for less spying and spook crap, but I don't like the way you are "feeding the frenzy" on these issues just because the right is "pumping up the volume" on pseudo issues they're attempting to use as political wedges. Espionage - and American intelligence efforts - have been around for a very, very long time indeed. Why all the fury now? Because the right doesn't have anything else to use.

If Obama attacks the Chinese for "cyber espionage", any adult knows its a play for diplomatic leverage, and nothing new. We have been doing "cyber espionage" for some time - we were the guys who "blew up" the Iranian centrifuges, aren't we? I don't like it, you don't like it - but do you really think this kind of thing is going to end because you want "transparency in government"? It won't end until we stop playing the spook games, and that may be a very long time.

It is not about dismantling our intelligence operations.  Who wants another 9-11 surprise?  It is about the tracking of our email's and even snail mails -- generally not the content -- but the data of who wrote to whom, when.  And done in secret -- with telecommunications and post offices expressedly forbidden to inform the public that any of this was going on.

But the issue isn't whether the above is appropriate (I happen to think some of it is) -- but the vibes that Obama clearly wanted to put out -- that his administration hides 'nothing' from the American people.  The latter was both unnecessary -- and damaging!

If you read my first post -- I actually expressed sadness that many good policies and programs get killed so unjustly by disinformation (lies!).  Part of it is our own shallowness and emotions.  And part of it is that our politicians aren't earning our trust -- so every noise becomes disruptive.  We can never eliminate disinformation.  Trust in our leadership is the one thing that can drown out the noise.  But it isn't there -- not enough of it anyway.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You see this "top secret" slide from the Prism program?

You see how those lines go through the U.S. - because we have the lion's share of the infrastructure?

That's why Prism exists. My guess is that, post-Snowden, Pakistan is buying Cisco routers like gangbusters.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
But the issue isn't whether the above is appropriate (I happen to think some of it is) -- but the vibes that Obama clearly wanted to put out -- that his administration hides 'nothing' from the American people.
Ben, that's really naive. No one could possibly think that a statement that he "hides nothing from the American public" would include the monitoring methods of intelligence agencies!

ETA: Agreed: We should have a thorough-going examination of both the extent and the need for the intelligence-gathering we do, and we should attempt, to the best of our ability, to make sure that we guarantee safeguards and monitoring over that which continues - but it is simply another case of "conflation" to send out an article such as Wilkinson's in The Economist as any kind of "intelligent critique" of Obama's pledge of transparency.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 11 2013, 11:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 8:52 pm)
QUOTE
You see this "top secret" slide from the Prism program?

You see how those lines go through the U.S. - because we have the lion's share of the infrastructure?

That's why Prism exists. My guess is that, post-Snowden, Pakistan is buying Cisco routers like gangbusters.

Missed the point again, Gabby.

It isn't about Prism (or any other program) per se.  And it isn't about other countries doing the same thing.  It is about Obama giving out vibes contrary to what really is going on behind the scenes.

I agree about the opposition making political hay.  But the fuel for this bonfire was provided by Obama himself!  Not good for Obama in terms of winning over our trust and confidence for him to clear the continuous noise of disinformation.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I suggest you compare the Bush Jr. approach to intelligence-gathering and that of Obama. I don't agree with much Obama does on either the foreign affairs or the intelligence fronts, but he is far-and-away better than Bush ever even thought about being.

And, BTW, what kind of "vibes" would Obama "give out" on this particular program? Shouldn't adults realize that actually revealing the existence of such a program publicly is tantamount to compromising it completely?

It's really a shame that we live in a world where any of this stuff is necessary, but we do. I'd like to see it reduced substantially, if not eliminated - but I don't live in fairyland.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 8:49 pm)
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Look at the way the GOP is using the delay in the corporate mandate. Yeah, the Obama administration would have been better advised to call a press conference and announce it instead of trying to hide it under the news cycle. But, presuming he did do that, what would the GOP have done with that? What do you think the WH thought they'd do with it? What are they doing with it anyway? Let me tell you: the economy is better (though not nearly enough), the deficit is last year's news (at least for now), and all they got is the ACA and the NSA and some dumba$$ crap about Obama investigating Fox and the Tea Party. Even that isn't playing well, because it's trumped-up crap.

All I am saying -- again -- is that Obama has done a subpar job of building our confidence in him -- to enable him to douse the "trumped up crap" effectively.

When enough people don't have sufficient trust in their leader -- every piece of news -- regardless of true or trumped -- leads to yet another round of revisiting and questioning.  After five years in office, Obama the man needs to take some responsibility of this perennial "trust gap".

As for the opposition -- I detest many of their counter-productive antics.  OTOH, can you really blame them for doing so -- when it seems so effective each and every time?  The reason does not lie solely with shallow, backward and emotional voters.  They have always been around.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Maybe Ben didn't get his copy of The Complete Guide To America's Secrets.  :laugh:

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Jul. 11 2013, 9:05 pm)
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Maybe Ben didn't get his copy of The Complete Guide To America's Secrets.  :laugh:

No, I didn't.  They don't give that to naturalized  citizens -- only native born!   :angry:

In any case, my point is that we have a lot of disinformation.  Sadly, it's because they work!  But dumb or shallow or emotional voters are only part of the reason -- plus they have always been around.  Five years into office, Obama himself needs to take some  responsibility of his perennial 'trust gap'.

Should repeat that other leaders -- Boehner, Pelosi, etc. -- suffer gaps of their own too.  Which also helps to explain why disinformation is so effective...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Jul. 11 2013, 11:05 pm)
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Maybe Ben didn't get his copy of The Complete Guide To America's Secrets.  :laugh:

I'm not trying to be dismissive here, Eco - but sometimes I think that there's a very real failure to assess the extent to which some people (and I do mean the GOP and the right here, because they really got nuttin' lately - they're very much on the wrong side of history, and I think they know it; they've been playing those cards so long, they have to have realized by now that the time for all that "bloody flag-waving, patriotic, anti-climate change, anti-black, anti-hispanic, anti-gay, pro-big bidness" line is quickly running out real soon - or they should) - the extent to which some people will go to take literally anything they can find and use it to "extend their lease" just a wee bit longer. It's pathetic, but, yeah, it's working for now. Some people just play into that, and, yes, there's some of that going on on both sides of the aisle - but what would you do? Would you just try to forget how those boys on the other side work? Would you just let their desperation slide? Give 'em meat to chew? I would personally handle it differently, but the guys up their advising have to, at the very least, think about what the upshot will be on just about anything they do.

So far, they aren't doing so well - just IMHO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All I'm saying is, just like "Bass" here - the inscrutable poster of all time - it's not, I don't believe, that Obama is, for instance, lying about "transparency". In that case, Obama is, I think, actually honestly committed to a policy of transparency and responsiveness in government.

But when it comes to the stuff Obama is a little "thin" on, like foreign policy, controlling banks, intelligence-gathering: that's where we're getting "Ray Davis"-like stuff, and some very clearly terrible advice. The right will, however, always attempt to conflate those failures - and they are, absolutely, failures - into an overall pattern of insidious intent and general ineptitude. I don't buy the idea of "general ineptitude" or "insidious intent" - though I suppose I could very well be wrong.

Basically, I think some on the left and in the middle are playing the Snowden affair into the right's hands. Not that I think we shouldn't examine what we're doing with intelligence. My intuition is that Snowden is just an idiot. And, again, I could be wrong. The right, however, doesn't really care, do they?

ETA: For the sake of those NSA guys listening in, let me state emphatically that that slide up there came from the wikipedia site, and the article there on "Prism". You can go check that, fellas - arrest Wiki, not me!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 9:27 pm)
QUOTE
All I'm saying is, just like "Bass" here - the inscrutable poster of all time - it's not, I don't believe, that Obama is, for instance, lying about "transparency". In that case, Obama is, I think, actually honestly committed to a policy of transparency and responsiveness in government.

But when it comes to the stuff Obama is a little "thin" on, like foreign policy, controlling banks, intelligence-gathering: that's where we're getting "Ray Davis"-like stuff, and some very clearly terrible advice. The right will, however, always attempt to conflate those failures - and they are, absolutely, failures - into an overall pattern of insidious intent and general ineptitude. I don't buy the idea of "general ineptitude" or "insidious intent" - though I suppose I could very well be wrong.

Basically, I think some on the left and in the middle are playing the Snowden affair into the right's hands. Not that I think we shouldn't examine what we're doing with intelligence. My intuition is that Snowden is just an idiot. And, again, I could be wrong. The right, however, doesn't really care, do they?

ETA: For the sake of those NSA guys listening in, let me state emphatically that that slide up there came from the wikipedia site, and the article there on "Prism". You can go check that, fellas - arrest Wiki, not me!

Posturing -- unnecessary posturing that turned out to bite him at the end -- that would be a better word than 'lying'.

If we do have a problem with peacetime surveillance that is both secret and massive -- then I would rather we clean out the wound before we cover it up -- and personally, I don't care at all if the left is playing into the hands of the right -- or vice versa.  The Right itself has plenty of sins.

But the issue is not about surveillance.  The issue is why Obama can't close a trust gap after five years in office -- in other words, why disinformation is so darn effective against him.  Again, one cannot just blame dumb, shallow and emotional voters.  They have always been around.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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I don't care at all if the left is playing into the hands of the right -- or vice versa.  The Right itself has plenty of sins.
We are on different sides politically - of course. I don't want to go back to the "bad old days". The right wants to take us back to the fifties. I don't want to go.

Sadly, they're a lot better at propaganda than the left. And it shows. A lot. (They have a hell of a lot more resources. The Koch brothers are essentially "buying states outright" for the GOP at this point.)

FYI & "interesting factoid": In reference to the West, Texas explosion and this reference to the Kochs: Did you know the Koch brothers have a virtual monopoly on the transport of liquified NH3 (anhydrous ammonia)? How interesting!!!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Jul. 11 2013, 9:36 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I don't care at all if the left is playing into the hands of the right -- or vice versa.  The Right itself has plenty of sins.
We are on different sides politically - of course. I don't want to go back to the "bad old days". The right wants to take us back to the fifties. I don't want to go.

Sadly, they're a lot better at propaganda than the left. And it shows. A lot.

Am I correct that you identify yourself with the Left?  If so, then we are not always on different sides.  FWIW, I view myself as a centrist -- with some Libertarian leaning plus a slight  socialist leaning.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 6:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 11 2013, 10:55 pm)
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If you got an agenda to push -- you aim for effect, not accuracy.  Bush and his thing about Iraqi WMD?

Obama tells us about a transparent government and roundly condemns China for computer attacks / espionage.

Leave it to Ben to turn a thread about health care into one about weapons of mass destruction, computer attacks, and espionage.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 7:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gabby
QUOTE
So where do you come down on this? What's your agenda, bub?


I support Obamacare. But as with many other topics that I post in here, I love to expose the half-truths and lies that we are fed by the media about important issues. In this case, a TV ad is promoting the LIE that Obamacare prevents us from choosing our own doctor! An thousands of people who feel that they are informed voters will BELIEVE that lie!

Most of us have jobs and responsibilities ( and hikes to enjoy ) that prevent us from spending the time necessary to check out such lies. So, for example, when someone on television claims that Obama's "death squads" will soon be walking the halls of a hospital near you and killing off old people and sick kids - we can't readily check it out. All of us know people who really expect to see "death squads" roaming the hospital halls after January 1.

The OP link ad on television claims that under Obamacare "I can't pick my own doctor" and " how do I know my family is going to get the care they need?".
A lot of people believe that based on this ad! So we rant about the issue, spreading the lie, and vote based on the lie.

My agenda is to post such outlandish lies and misleading statements in such a way as to expose them to examination. So my topic name might be "Florida skinhead white racist who stalked and murdered little black kid isn't even charged by police". And that is what many people believed a year ago. And as all of us in the forum know now, the pictures of the eight year old Trayvon Martin with the soccer ball that we see every day on television is deliberately misleading.

And like the Mad magazine of the 1970's, I will poke just as much fun at the Republican's lie as I will at Democrat's lie when they have deliberately misled us.

Hope that answers your concerns.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 8:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Maybe another anti-abortion law would fix everything.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Jul. 12 2013, 5:25 am)
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Maybe another anti-abortion law would fix everything.

Methinks these pot shots are beneath you.  I played along with your first one already...   :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jul. 12 2013, 3:18 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 11 2013, 10:55 pm)
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If you got an agenda to push -- you aim for effect, not accuracy.  Bush and his thing about Iraqi WMD?

Obama tells us about a transparent government and roundly condemns China for computer attacks / espionage.

Leave it to Ben to turn a thread about health care into one about weapons of mass destruction, computer attacks, and espionage.

Yes, there are often common threads to our political leadership. These last 15 years or so -- arrogance, ignorance and hypocrisy are common.  And not coincidentally at all, the manifestation has occurred with much more frequency and force since we've been the world's sole remaining super power.  Think about that. Yes, Reuben, power corrupts.

Going on a tangent... the future I wish to see?  A strong and prosperous USA -- along with strong and prosperous Brazil, China, EU, India, Japan, Russia... where no single country can lord it over others -- and where it pays much more to trade than to war.

you feeling that patriotic hurt again?  I expect you to be blinded by this -- but the reason I do not wish our country to remain the sole top dog is because I too love our country and hate to see it and its values corroded by power and might.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 1:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh Ben, I'm not picking on you, I'm picking on the Republicans in the House that deserve every bit of scorn that we can heap on them. Another round of lies and disinformation about the ACA aren't worthy of much of my attention on such a beautiful day, and we've already been all over the place with the topic. The next election could be a good one.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 1:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Jul. 12 2013, 10:24 am)
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Oh Ben, I'm not picking on you, I'm picking on the Republicans in the House that deserve every bit of scorn that we can heap on them. Another round of lies and disinformation about the ACA aren't worthy of much of my attention on such a beautiful day, and we've already been all over the place with the topic. The next election could be a good one.

Ah, OK, my bad.   :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 2:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 12 2013, 12:05 pm)
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(reubenstump @ Jul. 12 2013, 3:18 am)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 11 2013, 10:55 pm)
QUOTE
If you got an agenda to push -- you aim for effect, not accuracy.  Bush and his thing about Iraqi WMD?

Obama tells us about a transparent government and roundly condemns China for computer attacks / espionage.

Leave it to Ben to turn a thread about health care into one about weapons of mass destruction, computer attacks, and espionage.

Yes, there are often common threads to our political leadership. These last 15 years or so -- arrogance, ignorance and hypocrisy are common.  And not coincidentally at all, the manifestation has occurred with much more frequency and force since we've been the world's sole remaining super power.  Think about that. Yes, Reuben, power corrupts.

Going on a tangent... the future I wish to see?  A strong and prosperous USA -- along with strong and prosperous Brazil, China, EU, India, Japan, Russia... where no single country can lord it over others -- and where it pays much more to trade than to war.

you feeling that patriotic hurt again?  I expect you to be blinded by this -- but the reason I do not wish our country to remain the sole top dog is because I too love our country and hate to see it and its values corroded by power and might.

I simply noted that you immediately changed the topic of the thread.  That doesn't qualify as patriotic or hurtful - it's just the truth.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 2:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Jul. 12 2013, 11:34 am)
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I simply noted that you immediately changed the topic of the thread.  That doesn't qualify as patriotic or hurtful - it's just the truth.

Actually, you've been yelping at my heels so much you don't even comprehend what you are yelping about!

This thread is about disinformation and not just narrowly focused on health care.  Or are you really so stupid as to think disinformation only happens to Obamacare?   And my point is about a trust gap -- which is what enables disinformation to be so effective!  And then I listed some of the reasons for the trust gap plaguing Obama -- and lest some people think I am just anti Obama -- I also applied same to W.

Reuben, call it whatever hominem you want, but I see you as small and emotionally immature.  You keep getting your patriotic hurt and instead of replying with any kind of well thought out rebuttal that focuses on the issues at hand -- you go for cheap pot shots ("ludicrous") and then you cry ad hominem!!!

Your posts add nothing.  I could at least respect you a little bit if you could post something to defend why our political leadership isn't arrogant or why it isn't hypocritical and so on and so forth-- whatever is causing your patriotic hurt.  But no one respects a poster like you who keeps posting cheap pot shots!  Sure, most all of us poke at each other too -- but as a side -- it's not all that we do.  People expect posts with some weight from time to time.   Get it finally, boy?  ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 12 2013, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 12 2013, 2:41 pm)
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Going on a tangent...

Surprise, surprise...
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