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Topic: A Juror Speaks - it was Self-Defense< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 6:56 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE

CNN) -- One of the jurors who acquitted George Zimmerman said she had "no doubt" he feared for his life in the final moments of his struggle with Trayvon Martin, and that was the definitive factor in the verdict.

She also said she believes Martin threw the first punch in the confrontation that followed.

"I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn't have been there. But Trayvon decided that he wasn't going to let him scare him ... and I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him," she said.

Zimmerman felt his life was in danger before shooting Martin, and it was his voice that was heard screaming for help in 911 calls, the juror said she believes.

"He had a right to defend himself," she said. "If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him, or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right."


So let's see if the protesters respect the verdict now - Trayvon Martin was a punk.

Juror: 'No doubt' that George Zimmerman feared for his life
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 7:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I watched most of the trial on television and shifted my initial belief that Zimmerman was guilty to "not guilty" based on the witnesses and physical evidence and Florida's self defense exclusion in their law. He shot Trayvon Martin in self defense - a justification under Florida law.

The protestors are upset because of Florida's law that allowed Zimmerman to be found "not guilty". They want the Federal Justice Department to bring charges of a hate crime as was done after the Rodney King attackers were acquitted. Two of the Rodney King attackers who were acquitted in California court were convicted in Federal court and imprisioned.

They are hoping that self defense won't save Zimmerman from a Federal hate crime murder conviction. They want Zimmerman executed or in jail.

So the protestors want to make race a big issue. They want to say that Zimmerman profiled Martin because he was black. They want to emphasize race in an effort to get it retried by the Justice Department as a hate crime murder.

We will see if they are successful and the Justice Department tries Zimmerman again.

I think that the petitions and protests will force the Justice Department to retry Zimmerman. This time there will be a lot of blacks on the jury. And I think that they will set a new precedent that self defense is not a justification for murder.

I think that Zimmerman will be found guilty in this second trial and will be either executed or serve life.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 8:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So what if he was a punk?

I actually don't doubt that Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life.  I also don't doubt that it was "self-defense" within the definition of the law.

For me, the issue is that, had Trayvon been a "nice-looking" white kid, Zimmerman would never have singled him out as being suspicious and none of this would have ever happened.  The simple fact is that black males get tagged as someone who should be watched ALL THE TIME.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 8:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:11 am)
QUOTE
So what if he was a punk?

I actually don't doubt that Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life.  I also don't doubt that it was "self-defense" within the definition of the law.

For me, the issue is that, had Trayvon been a "nice-looking" white kid, Zimmerman would never have singled him out as being suspicious and none of this would have ever happened.  The simple fact is that black males get tagged as someone who should be watched ALL THE TIME.

The jurors who sat through the trail and deliberated the evidence disagree with you on every point.

So what system would you use instead of trail by jury?  Popular vote?  Media survey?

If Martin had not attacked a homeowner investigating suspicious behavior, he would never have been shot.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:11 am)
QUOTE
The simple fact is that black males get tagged as someone who should be watched ALL THE TIME.

There was a history of unfamiliar young black males breaking into houses in Zimmerman's neighborhood. I believe Zimmerman DID profile, but was it justified? If Mormons were committing crimes in the neighborhood, would anyone blame Zimmerman for profiling white boys wearing ties?

ETA: Although I don't believe race was a primary issue in this case, I do believe it played a factor in escalating the tension between Zimmerman and Treyvon.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:19 am)
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If Martin had not attacked a homeowner investigating suspicious behavior, he would never have been shot.

Walking down the street is suspicious behavior?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 16 2013, 9:08 am)
QUOTE

(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:19 am)
QUOTE
If Martin had not attacked a homeowner investigating suspicious behavior, he would never have been shot.

Walking down the street is suspicious behavior?

A stranger in a neighborhood matching a description of suspects in prior crimes is sufficient, under the Constitution, for police to stop, question, and arrest if lacking id.  So yes, under the circumstances, Martin was suspicious.  "Suspicious" doesn't mean criminal.  It merely means suspicious.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:19 am)
QUOTE

(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:11 am)
QUOTE
So what if he was a punk?

I actually don't doubt that Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life.  I also don't doubt that it was "self-defense" within the definition of the law.

For me, the issue is that, had Trayvon been a "nice-looking" white kid, Zimmerman would never have singled him out as being suspicious and none of this would have ever happened.  The simple fact is that black males get tagged as someone who should be watched ALL THE TIME.

The jurors who sat through the trail and deliberated the evidence disagree with you on every point.

So what system would you use instead of trail by jury?  Popular vote?  Media survey?

If Martin had not attacked a homeowner investigating suspicious behavior, he would never have been shot.

The jury disagrees with me on every point?  Zimmerman didn't take the stand, so how would they know what he was thinking?  And they didn't think that "Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life"?

You keep going back to the trial but, as I've said, I don't have an issue with the verdict.  I think the jury brought back the correct verdict given the laws and the evidence.

I do, however, have a big issue with armed "neighborhood watches".  There's a reason why we have lots and lots of laws and rules and policies for police behavior.  It's one thing to acknowledge a homeowner's right to protect himself and his property, but another thing completely when he leaves his property to go "patrolling" the neighborhood, armed with a gun, as the "captain" of an organized unit.

Btw, the juror that you quoted to start this thread also said that Florida's 'stand your ground' laws played a part in the jury's decision -- a fact you conveniently left out.

All in all, it was a lucky day for "Zimmerman fans" when it turned out that Trayvon wasn't an angel because it made it that much easier to paint this kid as "a punk" or a "thug" -- words used by you and others here to describe him.

It's impossible to know exactly why either one did what he did -- and my guess is that neither one was blameless -- but this insistence, outside of the legal aspects, that it was simply a situation of an innocent "homeowner" being attacked by a "punk" says, imo, quite a bit about your own attitude.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 7:19 am)
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If Martin had not attacked a homeowner investigating suspicious behavior, he would never have been shot.

Wait....what?

I thought GZ said that he got out of his truck so he could find an address and not to 'investigate'.

But then, you have never admitted that if GZ had followed the rules of the neighborhood watch, he wouldnt be in this schittstorm.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:08 am)
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'Walking While Black' down the street is suspicious behavior?

fixeditforyou

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 8:17 am)
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A stranger in a neighborhood matching a description of suspects in prior crimes is sufficient, under the Constitution, for police to stop, question, and arrest if lacking id.  So yes, under the circumstances, Martin was suspicious.  "Suspicious" doesn't mean criminal.  It merely means suspicious.

But Zimmerman is or was not a police officer.......as much as you and him like to think.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 9:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

They're not going to get a conviction for a hate crime.  The most they can hope for is to get him for "Violating his civil rights" or something like that.

Let's face it, even if they never get a conviction, they can make his life miserable and leave him with more legal bills than he will ever be able to pay during his lifetime.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 10:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The prosecution had a much better shot at getting a manslaughter conviction.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course it was self defense. A look at Trayvons facebook pages and tweets will give you a good look at where he was headed. He was going to spend his life in prison anyway.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 10:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 6:56 am)
QUOTE
So let's see if the protesters respect the verdict now - Trayvon Martin was a punk.

Juror: 'No doubt' that George Zimmerman feared for his life

So are you saying that juries never get it wrong? The OJ trial jury was right and should be respected because they sat through the whole trial?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 10:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Altarboy @ Jul. 16 2013, 10:26 am)
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Of course it was self defense. A look at Trayvons facebook pages and tweets will give you a good look at where he was headed. He was going to spend his life in prison anyway.

So... high school kids with their pants around their hips, bad attitudes, irreverent language, are all headed for a life of crime and prison?  Easy to identify people like that, just walking down the street, right?  Especially if they don't "belong" in that neighborhood...?

Sort of like the "slut" who was probably asking to be raped?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 10:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He still should have been found guilty. As Gabby put it, he had no right to self defense. NO ONE has a right to self defense. He should have just laid there and taken it. Sooner or later, the police would have shown up to save him.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 11:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Jul. 16 2013, 10:59 am)
QUOTE
He still should have been found guilty. As Gabby put it, he had no right to self defense. NO ONE has a right to self defense. He should have just laid there and taken it. Sooner or later, the police would have shown up to save him.

lol, true.

When a person goes through life with a constant victim mentality, it's hard to overcome and achieve. Liberalism thrives on the victim mentality.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 11:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 9:31 am)
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The jury disagrees with me on every point?  Zimmerman didn't take the stand, so how would they know what he was thinking?  And they didn't think that "Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life"?

Uh...yes they did...according to a juror who was in the jury room.

Bottom line - if Martin had not attacked Zimmerman putting Zimmerman in fear for his life, then Martin would not be dead.

Period.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 11:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tomas @ Jul. 16 2013, 10:48 am)
QUOTE

(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 6:56 am)
QUOTE
So let's see if the protesters respect the verdict now - Trayvon Martin was a punk.

Juror: 'No doubt' that George Zimmerman feared for his life

So are you saying that juries never get it wrong? The OJ trial jury was right and should be respected because they sat through the whole trial?

The OJ jury made a simple reasonable doubt determination.  The Zimmerman jury made a self-defense determination.  We now know that it was not simply a case of the prosecution failed to prove something but rather that the jury believed Zimmerman feared for his life when he pulled the trigger.  Big difference.

If, as O'Mara had wished, the verdict sheet had an "innocent" box, they would have checked it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 11:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 11:37 am)
QUOTE

(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 9:31 am)
QUOTE
The jury disagrees with me on every point?  Zimmerman didn't take the stand, so how would they know what he was thinking?  And they didn't think that "Zimmerman was scared and feared for his life"?

Uh...yes they did...according to a juror who was in the jury room.

Bottom line - if Martin had not attacked Zimmerman putting Zimmerman in fear for his life, then Martin would not be dead.

Period.

Spoken like a true lawyer.   :laugh:   Vague enough to not be untrue and no more than necessary to support your case.  (I dated a criminal defense lawyer for a good number of years... I'm familiar with the game.)

But you're wrong.  Trayvon Martin is dead simply because Zimmerman shot him.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Jul. 16 2013, 6:50 am)
QUOTE

(Altarboy @ Jul. 16 2013, 10:26 am)
QUOTE
Of course it was self defense. A look at Trayvons facebook pages and tweets will give you a good look at where he was headed. He was going to spend his life in prison anyway.

So... high school kids with their pants around their hips, bad attitudes, irreverent language, are all headed for a life of crime and prison?  Easy to identify people like that, just walking down the street, right?  Especially if they don't "belong" in that neighborhood...?

Have you listened to the police dispatcher recordings? Zimmerman is reporting him for suspicious behavior and doesn't even seem to be sure of Martin's race until about a minute into the call. http://www.examiner.com/article....scribed  Assuming he's reporting him because Martin was black and Zimmerman wasn't sounds to me like racial profiling of Zimmerman.

And Martin wasn't likely going to end up in prison because of the way he looked or his skin color, but because he almost certainly WAS a thief.

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a 'burglary tool' "

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012....ink=cpy

Kruidbos testified last month that he found embarrassing photos found on Trayvon's cellphone, including pictures of a clump of jewelry on a bed, underage nude females, marijuana plants and a hand holding a semiautomatic pistol. Defense attorneys allege that data wasn't turned over to them as part of the evidence exchange process, known as discovery
.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07....merman-


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 11:44 am)
QUOTE
The OJ jury made a simple reasonable doubt determination.  The Zimmerman jury made a self-defense determination.  We now know that it was not simply a case of the prosecution failed to prove something but rather that the jury believed Zimmerman feared for his life when he pulled the trigger.  Big difference.

You are missing my point. The OJ jury was wrong in their decision and acquited a guilty man. The Zimmerman jury did the same thing.

Self defense when being attacked is one thing. It isn't self defense when you instigate the situation and it then escalated beyond your comfort levels. What the jury in FL essentially said is that it is ok for me to create an incident and if I end up feeling threatened by the other person's response I can use lethal force.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 1:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


The juror said Sanford Police Detective Chris Serino made a big impression on her, because he
would have been accustomed to dealing with murders and similar cases. He would have known how
to spot a liar, and yet he testified that he believed Zimmerman, the juror said.


http://news.yahoo.com/juror-w....18.html

HMMM

Yet


SANFORD, Fla. — A judge tossed out a Florida police detective's statement that he found
George Zimmerman credible in his description of fighting with Trayvon Martin,
a decision
that could benefit prosecutors who are trying to discredit the defendant's self-defense
claims.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....87.html

So it looks like the juror made a decision based on testimoney that the judge specifically
tossed out.

Furthermore we know that the truthfullness of GM was shown to be very much lacking in at least other
areas(like GN's supposed claim that he never heard of Stand your ground laws before his
confrontation with TM)

This same juror also said that she was sure the voice heard screaming was that of George
Zimmerman


One of the six jurors who acquitted George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case says she
“was sure” the voice heard screaming for help on a 911 tape was the man with a gun.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news....DyazRTq

yet from testimony I thought it pretty clear that there was no conclusive evidence either
way.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 1:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

N2theWild said
QUOTE

ol, true.

When a person goes through life with a constant victim mentality, it's hard to overcome and achieve. Liberalism thrives on the victim mentality.


and N2 is back with his dumbass braindead right-wing narratives.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 2:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here is a question for some well-versed in the law: Is the self-defense argument less legitimate as a defense against a charge of manslaughter? (vs. murder 2)

I pulled this from Wikipedia, and it suggests that Zim might have had a right to imperfect self-defense, but was still liable for being the initial aggressor. Problem is that I don't think this standard applies in Florida:


In some jurisdictions, the successful invocation of such a defense reduces a murder charge to manslaughter. Most jurisdictions do not recognize imperfect self-defense.

The doctrine of imperfect self-defense recognizes a defendant’s honest but unreasonable belief that deadly force is needed. An appellate court in Kansas held that "Imperfect self defense is an intentional killing committed with an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances justified deadly force."[4]
Another court, in Maryland, held that:

When evidence is presented showing the defendant’s subjective belief that the use of force was necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm, the defendant is entitled to a proper instruction on imperfect self defense....The theory underlying the doctrine is that when a defendant uses deadly force with an honest but unreasonable belief that it is necessary to defend himself, the element of malice, necessary for a murder conviction, is lacking.
—State v. Faulkner, 483 A.2d 759,769 (Md. 1984) [5]

Michigan also recognizes imperfect self-defense as a qualified defense that can mitigate second-degree murder to voluntary manslaughter.[6] However, the doctrine can only be used where the defendant would have had a right to self-defense but for the fact that the defendant was the initial aggressor.[7]


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 3:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tomas @ Jul. 16 2013, 1:11 pm)
QUOTE

(nogods @ Jul. 16 2013, 11:44 am)
QUOTE
The OJ jury made a simple reasonable doubt determination.  The Zimmerman jury made a self-defense determination.  We now know that it was not simply a case of the prosecution failed to prove something but rather that the jury believed Zimmerman feared for his life when he pulled the trigger.  Big difference.

You are missing my point. The OJ jury was wrong in their decision and acquited a guilty man. The Zimmerman jury did the same thing.

Self defense when being attacked is one thing. It isn't self defense when you instigate the situation and it then escalated beyond your comfort levels. What the jury in FL essentially said is that it is ok for me to create an incident and if I end up feeling threatened by the other person's response I can use lethal force.

You don't understand the point.

The OJ jury was right - the prosecution failed to prove its case.  that's the first job of the jury.

The Zimmerman jury went a step further - they determined that Zimmerman had a right to use self defense.

Big difference.

A resident of a gated community that has suffered crime committed by suspects that resemble a stranger wandering around the community at night is not instigating anything by being concerned and taking action in accordance with that concern.  He's being a good neighbor and concerned citizen.  I'd rather he be my neighbor than that pot smoking illegal firearm owning 3-time school suspended Trayvon Martin.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 3:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hungry Jack @ Jul. 16 2013, 2:38 pm)
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Here is a question for some well-versed in the law: Is the self-defense argument less legitimate as a defense against a charge of manslaughter? (vs. murder 2)

I pulled this from Wikipedia, and it suggests that Zim might have had a right to imperfect self-defense, but was still liable for being the initial aggressor. Problem is that I don't think this standard applies in Florida:


In some jurisdictions, the successful invocation of such a defense reduces a murder charge to manslaughter. Most jurisdictions do not recognize imperfect self-defense.

The doctrine of imperfect self-defense recognizes a defendant’s honest but unreasonable belief that deadly force is needed. An appellate court in Kansas held that "Imperfect self defense is an intentional killing committed with an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances justified deadly force."[4]
Another court, in Maryland, held that:

When evidence is presented showing the defendant’s subjective belief that the use of force was necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm, the defendant is entitled to a proper instruction on imperfect self defense....The theory underlying the doctrine is that when a defendant uses deadly force with an honest but unreasonable belief that it is necessary to defend himself, the element of malice, necessary for a murder conviction, is lacking.
—State v. Faulkner, 483 A.2d 759,769 (Md. 1984) [5]

Michigan also recognizes imperfect self-defense as a qualified defense that can mitigate second-degree murder to voluntary manslaughter.[6] However, the doctrine can only be used where the defendant would have had a right to self-defense but for the fact that the defendant was the initial aggressor.[7]

The difference is in "honest but unreasonable belief"

Most self defense laws, either expressly or by judicial interpretation, incorporate a reasonable man standard against which to measure the belief of imminent harm.

The jury could find that someone actually believed he was in danger, even though his belief was not reasonable.  That is when the notion of imperfect self defense arises.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 3:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Jul. 16 2013, 9:59 am)
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He still should have been found guilty. As Gabby put it, he had no right to self defense. NO ONE has a right to self defense. He should have just laid there and taken it. Sooner or later, the police would have shown up to save him.

I didn't say he "had no right to self defense." What I said was that Florida law on self defense exacerbates the problems we already have with the self defense claim in gun death.

There need to be clear legal precedents for when and how "self defense" is invoked. In the present case, had Zimmerman merely heeded the (I know, "non binding" legally) dispatcher "suggestion" that Zimmerman's pursuit of the 'suspect" was not required, the confrontation would not have happened. Zimmerman clearly was pursuing, and I understand that, had he simply gotten out of the truck and walked home, he might have been attacked as well. My understanding (and only my understanding) of the transcript of the police communication nowhere indicated that Zimmerman's intention was to "go home".

Further, if you or I were to be in the same situation, what effect  would the dispatcher's "suggestion" have on you or I? I, for one, would have taken that "suggestion" to mean that "the police will handle this - stay in your vehicle."

The jury, as I've said before, came to the correct decision, based on the evidence as presented and Florida law. I'm not happy with the laws of Florida, not happy with how the police handled the investigation, and decidedly not happy with the idea that any neighborhood is patrolled by "armed vigilantes" with little or no training.

Some of my comments yesterday were definitely out of line, and I apologize for that. I am incited by those who jump to conclusions and make rash statements that they can't support with evidence.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2013, 3:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks NG for clarifying

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