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Topic: How is BHO Doing...?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 2:52 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How well do you think President Obama is doing in his second term?  What do you like about the president?  Any areas where he needs to improve upon?  Will he have a great legacy looking back on his administration and its policies?

HT,

RS


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 6:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have been thinking a lot about that. Obama's first term was a great success in my opinion.

Although I voted for Obama, I think that his second term is a disaster. Much of the problem is that Democrats lost the House. But much of it is poor judgement by the Democratic leadership and Obama.

Despite the fact that US economy was a great headwind during Obama's first term, Obama seems to be getting no credit for the economy that now seems to be improving. That is a shame I think. I credit Obama's policies for averting a terrible depression. ( I think that the history books will show this period as a depression. )

Obama and the Democratic leadership lost valuable political capital on the gun control debate and wasted the first year of his second term making enemies for no reason. The issue hardened otherwise moderate Republicans and alienated many Democrats. That has made the immigration reform debate much more difficult. Just about any issue is much more difficult for Democrats to unify on now. And no progress whatsoever was made on the gun control issue.

Now he has inserted himself into the Trayvon Martin and Florida self defense law debate. Most of the country expects him to order the Justice Department to retry Zimmerman. If he doesn't, he loses even more support. If he does have Zimmerman retried, he puts himself into another lose-lose situation like the gun control issue - except that he makes even more enemies.

I think that his legacy will be Obamacare. Like Social Security and Medicare, I think that Obamacare will come to enjoy widespread support. So I think that history will judge Obama as a great president.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 10:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I agree with you on his gun control stance.  Also. Zimmerman will not be retried, he will be indicted under federal charges for civil rights violations.  

I don't think he'll go down as a great president, though.  He gets a pass from a lot of the media on some of the things he does poorly.

As with George "Dubya" Bush, Obama is in over his head and his lack of experience shows.

Happy Trails,

RS


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 11:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 11:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Really, LB?  More so than LBJ?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
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Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

I'm not sure if this is playing devil's advocate or a comment made in earnest.

I don't think Obama is a great president, nor do I think he is a particularly poor president. I think he's a poor/inexperienced politician. At a time when the American public is closer to his positions than the GOP leadership's positions on almost everything, he still manages to cede power to them on just about everything.

But, about the "divisive" thing. If we stipulate that it's true. (Obviously, I don't think it's true), what has he said or done that has been divisive? To the extent that he's a divisive figure, I think a lot of the blame for that lies with how others have reacted to him.

I do think Obama Care will probably be more popular 30 years from now than it is now. I think Obama will go down as a good/decent, not great president. Sortof like GHW Bush. Better than GW Bush, not as effective as Reagan and Clinton.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 11:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep, to CW.

I'm not sure how to combat the GOP's self-destructive policies which are also hurting our country...and, unfortunately, neither does President Obama.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 12:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Jul. 19 2013, 9:16 am)
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Really, LB?  More so than LBJ?

and Nixon
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 12:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:14 am)
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As with George "Dubya" Bush, Obama is in over his head and his lack of experience shows.

Meh. That's pretty much how I feel.

I like his passion although I may often disagree with the direction of that passion.

I've been disappointed with his foreign policy... certainly better than GWB (and most certainly better than any of the Republican contenders would have been), but we're still sticking our collective noses where they don't belong.

The one thing I've never been able stand about Obama is his oratory style... that mix of used car salesman and condescending lecturing. Drives me up a wall. Much more annoying than GWB's "lost in space" moments.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 9:49 am)
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(rangersven @ Jul. 19 2013, 9:16 am)
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Really, LB?  More so than LBJ?

and Nixon

Or Kennedy. The day he was shot was a school holiday in some locales where I had family friends living.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jul. 19 2013, 9:27 am)
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(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
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Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

I'm not sure if this is playing devil's advocate or a comment made in earnest.

I don't think Obama is a great president, nor do I think he is a particularly poor president. I think he's a poor/inexperienced politician. At a time when the American public is closer to his positions than the GOP leadership's positions on almost everything, he still manages to cede power to them on just about everything.

But, about the "divisive" thing. If we stipulate that it's true. (Obviously, I don't think it's true), what has he said or done that has been divisive? To the extent that he's a divisive figure, I think a lot of the blame for that lies with how others have reacted to him.

I do think Obama Care will probably be more popular 30 years from now than it is now. I think Obama will go down as a good/decent, not great president. Sortof like GHW Bush. Better than GW Bush, not as effective as Reagan and Clinton.

I think you will find most people either love him or hate him.

I'm with you....I don't think he's doing a terrible job...actually I think he did pretty well in preventing us from slipping into another depression, but I think we are in the minority.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
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Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

The divisiveness is not Obama's doing.

Most of the hatred directed at this president is the product of fearmongering and falsehoods from the rightwing noise machine (Kenyan, marxist, death panels) and yes, racism.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No George W, Bush and Dick Cheney in prison awaiting trial for multiple counts of treason and various other assorted war crimes ?

FAIL, BHO, FAIL.

As to a "Great Communicator" that fails at getting people to see that opening up adequate healthcare to an additional 35 million fellow Americans is a good thing?* Not ready to go there.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 12:16 pm)
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I think you will find most people either love him or hate him.

FWIW, most of my friends are left of center, and probably voted for him for both terms. And I get the idea that very few of them either love or hate him.

I would characterize most as feeling we were better off with him than with McCain or Romney, but also being fairly to profoundly disappointed in some aspects of his presidency.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't know if I'm alone in this or not, but sometimes I get the impression, no matter who is in the office of President of the U.S., that there are some things that are handed to the President's desk with the admonition that he just needs to sign it or make a specific statement w/o asking any questions, because he's told, essentially, "you don't really want to know, and it might be detrimental to the best interests of the U.S. and your own personal self-defense at a later time, if you did." It's possible that there are some areas in which this country is so deeply entrenched as policy by the time that any individual gets into office that it would be an impossibility to extract ourselves gracefully, so that the President just can't take any reasonable action to counter what is already there. So, he accedes to the ugly mess despite what he may actually feel about it.

I'm often left with the impression that the entire set of CIA operations & funding are of this nature. Yes, it runs counter to what we'd all perhaps like to think is the case - that someone, anyone is "at the wheel" or "at the throttle" - but, except for the possible exception of GWB (who always seemed "zoned" to me, at least), whenever any President issues a statement that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense in the context, runs against common sense, or during which the President has the appearance of being controlled from afar like a puppet, I'm convinced we've wandered into one of these areas.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 19 2013, 11:19 am)
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(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
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Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

The divisiveness is not Obama's doing.

I didn' say it was....though some of the things he's said and done "you didn't build this" haven't helped.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lamebeaver said
QUOTE

Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln


lets be clear that statement implies that the divisness is caused by the president which is
such a load of crap.

SO when Obama has bent overbackward's to accommodate the most divisive party(at least in modern
times) backed up the most divisive vicious irrational media attack machine(right-wing
entertainment complex headed by fox "news") that is your proof that he "Most divisive president
since Abraham Lincoln" which means more divisive than Nixon for example?

Again what load of crap


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jul. 19 2013, 1:19 pm)
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(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
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Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

The divisiveness is not Obama's doing.

Most of the hatred directed at this president is the product of fearmongering and falsehoods from the rightwing noise machine (Kenyan, marxist, death panels) and yes, racism.

You nailed it!

He will be remembered as the blameless president
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know I've always thought that its difficult to judge a president just based on what
actually gets done or doesn't get done because of course the president isn't dictator and
from a legislative perspective clearly the congress is more important and this congress has
been a total thorn in the side of anything Obama and Democrats wanted to get done.

so if you are going to evaluate what Obama then IMO that evaluation should be done in the context
of what he does have control over.

So under that context I think he probably doing at least an OK job although I really wonder if
he has been to easy on Wall street and the financial sector. What has the DOJ done in prosecuting
Wall street crooks? Then there are 4th amemendment issues that I wonder if Obama has taken stances
to similar to Bush. These are the two issues, IMO, that prevent me from saying Obama is doing
a great or even good job.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"You didn't build that" is a particularly poor statement to cite in claiming that Obama is divisive.

It was part of a gramatically complex and mangled paragraph which obviously didn't come out the way it was meant to. This is what he actually said:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."

In the context of the entire paragraph, it's pretty clear that the "that" in "you didn't build that" refers to the first part of the paragraph. It refers to "this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."

So, those who interpret this statement as divisive are making an active choice to interpret it that way. It is not the only nor the most obvious interpretation. It's just the one that casts Obama in the worst light.

Now, don't get me wrong: people do this all the time, on all sides of the political fence. But it's really not an example of Obama being divisive at all. It's an example of Obama delivering a poorly constructed sentence, which partisans have chosen to interpret in a way which advances their cause.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 1:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He's been as great as a man of color in this day and age could be. No "uppity nigger" could have survived the process to become the kind of president racists demand of white guys. No ultra-liiberal could have survived the process to end expensive wars overnight. No saber rattling bluster that hawks demand would have brought us more security while garnering international respect. He adopted the social reform of the constrained health care that conservatives designed as an alternative to really progressive options that they feared might pass. He has offered modest changes to the traffic of weapons that has driven the NRA and the radical gun lobby even further to the right.

The job of POTUS requires walking the razors edge. No job on earth is easier to make mistakes at. Instead of your personal agenda, try seeing this as a matter of national pride. Only history will have a  more objective perspective.

Conservatives are blubbering nonsense, setting their hair on fire, and predicting the end of civilization and still can't get it together to do anything more that obstruct everything that might be progress when it comes before the house. If the trend continues, Dems will win the house in 2014, the truly psychotic reactionaries will kill themselves or leave the country and we can take on the environmental challenges that have global implications for generations to come. You can't have an economy without an ecology.

Yeah, I went there. :cool:

I dedicate this rant to my friend Ranger Sven that contributes in a very positive way to my world view.  :;):


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 2:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Jul. 19 2013, 12:48 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Jul. 19 2013, 1:19 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 10:13 am)
QUOTE
Most divisive president since Abraham Lincoln

The divisiveness is not Obama's doing.

Most of the hatred directed at this president is the product of fearmongering and falsehoods from the rightwing noise machine (Kenyan, marxist, death panels) and yes, racism.

You nailed it!

He will be remembered as the blameless president

You're going to have to connect the dots for me on that one, re: how you deduce a suggestion of "blameless" (to encompass how his presidency will be remembered) from my statement ... unless you really think he is a marxist born in Kenya who wants to euthanize grandma.

I "blame" and give credit to this president for a lot of things, though presidents generally do get blamed or credited for a host of events & trends over which they have little control during their terms.

I've been disappointed in Obama, but the Republicans have been truly despicable.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 4:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jul. 19 2013, 11:56 am)
QUOTE
"You didn't build that" is a particularly poor statement to cite in claiming that Obama is divisive.

It was part of a gramatically complex and mangled paragraph which obviously didn't come out the way it was meant to. This is what he actually said:

"If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you've got a business—you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen."

In the context of the entire paragraph, it's pretty clear that the "that" in "you didn't build that" refers to the first part of the paragraph. It refers to "this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive."

So, those who interpret this statement as divisive are making an active choice to interpret it that way. It is not the only nor the most obvious interpretation. It's just the one that casts Obama in the worst light.

Now, don't get me wrong: people do this all the time, on all sides of the political fence. But it's really not an example of Obama being divisive at all. It's an example of Obama delivering a poorly constructed sentence, which partisans have chosen to interpret in a way which advances their cause.

I understand the context, but it doesn't change the message, or the interpretation.

He's basically saying "You are successful, not as much a result of your own hard work, initiative, or ambition, but because of the infrastructure that was already in place, which allowed you to succeed."

A lot of business owners considered this a slap in the face...and IMHO rightly so.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm honestly baffled, Lamebeaver.

If we interpret Obama's comments such that the "that" in "You didn't build that" refers to roads and bridges, and the American way of life which facilitates entrepreneurship, then how could that statement possibly be a slap in the face to anybody?

I could open a store front on Main Street, but I didn't build main street. (Nor did I build the utility infrastructure that brings electricity, water and sewer to main street--those things are usually built by the taxpayers of the community.)  I could open a gas station along the interstate, but I didn't build the interstate. To me it is utterly uncontroversial.

People calling it "a slap in the face" seem to me like soccer stars, embellishing the slightest little contact to make it appear like a major affront.

To me, there are three kinds of offensive statements...

1. Things that are, on their face, offensive.

2. Things that are probably meant to be harmless, but are possibly offensive in some way the speaker may or may not have even been consciously aware off. (Most "offensive" remarks probably fit best into this category.)

3. Things that are innocuous, but people can opportunistically twist them into something they can choose to take offense over.

To me, "you didn't build that" is a solid 3. Not even a 2.9.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 5:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Let me put this another way.  In essence, what the president is saying is:

"You are not a success because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are a success because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 4:25 pm)
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Let me put this another way.  In essence, what the president is saying is:

"You are not a success because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are a success because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."

Let me put this another way. That is clearly not what the president was saying. He was saying...

"You are not a success ONLY because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are ALSO a success PARTIALLY because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."

Which I take to be utterly uncontroversial.

Someone who chooses to interpret it as you did is clearly in my category #3 above, IMHO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 2:25 pm)
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Let me put this another way.  In essence, what the president is saying is:

"You are not a success because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are a success because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."

Wrong:

"No person is an island"

"We stand on the shoulders of giants"
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 5:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jul. 19 2013, 2:35 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 19 2013, 4:25 pm)
QUOTE
Let me put this another way.  In essence, what the president is saying is:

"You are not a success because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are a success because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."

Let me put this another way. That is clearly not what the president was saying. He was saying...

"You are not a success ONLY because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are ALSO a success PARTIALLY because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."

Which I take to be utterly uncontroversial.

Someone who chooses to interpret it as you did is clearly in my category #3 above, IMHO.

Agreed: "GOTCHA!" over substance.

Too bad when either political side does it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 6:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Also, How can I be so sure?

Because anyone who thought...

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"You are not a success because of your own hard work, ambition and initiative, you are a success because of the work others did to make your achievements possible."


...is a moron. Whatever we think about Obama, he is clearly not a moron.

And furthermore, anyone who actually thought that would be an even bigger moron to say so publicly. You might as well run on a platform of criminalizing mom and apple pie.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2013, 7:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Barry will always get the recognition of first black-or half-black president.

As far as record it will be mediocre, bottom half of presidents. To many he will be GWB light. There are no distinct differences with GWB. He follows most of the same policies on all fronts.

To his own party he will be a disappointment since he never advanced any agenda to move blacks forward. There were/are many opportunities.

To the majority he's the biggest sleaze ball since Nixon. But somehow we forgave Nixon all his faults. From lack of transparency to spying on the American public the only way I see this as a non-issue is if successive president's are even worse. Barry's policies as president don't mesh with any of his words or actions as candidate or senator.

His greatest legacy is Obamacare.  Much like SS, Medicare or Medicaid, only time will tell.


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you don't know what you got till it's gone
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