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Topic: Right-wing obession over "black on black" crime< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:13 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok so its quite common from those on the right to trot out the "black on black" crime rate
and its has especially been used lately because of the Zimmerman trial. On that note I found
this interesting perspective


Yes, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of black victims were killed by black offenders, but
that racial exclusivity was also true for white victims of violent crime—86 percent were
killed by white offenders. Indeed, for the large majority of crimes, you’ll find that victims
and offenders share a racial identity, or have some prior relationship to each other.

What Shapiro and others miss about crime, in general, is that it’s driven by opportunism and
proximity; If African-Americans are more likely to be robbed, or injured, or killed by other
African-Americans, it’s because they tend to live in the same neighborhoods as each other.
Residential statistics bear this out (PDF); blacks are still more likely to live near each
other or other minority groups than they are to whites. And of course, the reverse holds as
well—whites are much more likely to live near other whites than they are to minorities and
African-Americans in particular.


Nor are African-Americans especially criminal. If they were, you would still see high rates
of crime among blacks, even as the nation sees a historic decline in criminal offenses.
Instead, crime rates among African-Americans, and black youth in particular, have taken a
sharp drop. In Washington, D.C., for example, fewer than 10 percent of black youth are in a
gang, have sold drugs, have carried a gun, or have stolen more than $100 in goods.

Overall, figures from a variety of institutions—including the Federal Bureau of Investigation
and the Bureau of Justice Statistics—show that among black youth, rates of robbery and
serious property offenses are at their lowest rates in 40 years, as are rates of violent
crime and victimization. And while it’s true that young black men are a disproportionate
share of the nation’s murder victims, it’s hard to disentangle this from the stew of
hyper-segregation (often a result of deliberate policies), entrenched poverty, and
nonexistent economic opportunities that characterizes a substantial number of black
communities. Hence the countless inner-city anti-violence groups that focus on creating
opportunity for young, disadvantaged African-Americans, through education, mentoring, and
community programs. Blacks care intensely about the violence that happens in their
communities. After all, they have to live with it.

“Black-on-black crime” has been part of the American lexicon for decades, but as a specific
phenomenon, it’s no more real than “white-on-white crime.” Unlike the latter, however, the
idea of “black-on-black crime” taps into specific fears around black masculinity and black
criminality —the same fears that, in Florida, led George Zimmerman to focus his attention on
Trayvon Martin, and in New York, continue to justify Michael Bloomberg’s campaign of police
harassment against young black men in New York City.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/article....me.html

So what really is the point of focusing on "black on black crime"?

Is it trying to imply that black leaders ignore gang violence(as if those who use this
talking point even care about this subject)? If so you really think, the NAACP, for example
ignores gang violence? Well thats BS

http://atl.gmnews.com/news/2006-12-29/Front_page/036.html

http://www.naacp.org/action-....-key-ho


Does this talking point really offer a substantive argument about anything or is its purpose
just to inflame a certain segment of the population who tend to be conservative politically?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 1:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Statistically, aren't you most likely to be killed by someone you know? They better watch it or they'll bring the argument back around to we need gun control again.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:35 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

O.K. Dennis, if you're going to go statistical then try this one on for size:

Black are 50 times more likely to violently attack whites than vice versa.

It may only be 40 times more likely; I'm not going to quibble with the details.

Explain that with your geographical proximity theory.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 11:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm waiting Dennis.

Oh, I was way off on my statistics.  FBI crime statistics show that blacks commit only 39 times more violent crimes against whites than vice versa.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

justwalkin

So you shot your mouth off before actually doing the research? Gee I'm just so shocked.

and its noteworthy that you didn't actually link to those stats. Aren't you actually going to
link the link and quote from it?

That being said you're changing the subject again. The issue is black on black crime and how
right-wingers like you are obsessed about it(not black on white crime or vice versa)

But having said that am I surprised that you trotted out crime stats involving black on white
crime? No because after all racist bigoted white supremicsts or those sympathetic to them
often do exactly that.

So justwalkin, provide an explanation why you think blacks attack whites more? You, for example will not
believe it has anything to do with poverty, economics and other environmental reasons? Correct?

Do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites?So you shot your mouth off before actually doing the research? and the link to those stats?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just as I figured; the stats don't fit in with your construct so you pretend they aren't there.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

just as I figured

You

A) continue to change the subject

B) didn't back up your claim

C) ignored the question on why you think those stats are the way they are(assuming it is as
high as 39 times more likely)

So you obviously think blacks are more likely to commit more crime against whites than vice versa by
a huge margin so why do you think that is? Why are you afraid to answer this question?
What are you afraid it will show the rest of us about you?

Again, do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Check it out Dennis

http://www.examiner.com/article....ormulas

Edit:  I'm having problems with the link.  It will take you to examiner.com, but then you'll have to search under the website for black on white crime statistics to find the article.  It's very informative, and based entirely on federal data.  Worth checking out.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You used the right-wing examiner to cite your stats and one of the sources it says it
uses doesn't even exist(or at least when I clicked on the link I got a page not found)

The other link(color of crime. Oh geez. its taking way too long to even load. Geez its not loaded)

Don't forget to answer the question on why think blacks are more likely to commit more crime
against whites than vice versa by a huge margin so why do you think that is?

Again, do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites?

You really are scared to answer these questions aren't you?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh and justwalkin

this is just for you

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012....k-crime


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 9:33 am)
QUOTE
Check it out Dennis

http://www.examiner.com/article....ormulas

Edit:  I'm having problems with the link.  It will take you to examiner.com, but then you'll have to search under the website for black on white crime statistics to find the article.  It's very informative, and based entirely on federal data.  Worth checking out.

Wow, I'm convinced.

"Uh-oh

We can't find the page you've specified. The address may have changed or we may be experiencing a temporary site hiccup.

To find the article we recommend using the search field above, or check out some of our amazing content featured below."

Or, well, not.

:D

There's a national bureau of crime statistics out there somewhere: might be superior to a webpage that doesn't exist? As a thought.

ETA: One such: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:42 pm)
QUOTE
Again, do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites?

You really are scared to answer these questions aren't you?

Not at all scared.  I don't think any race is inherently more violent than any other race.  However, in the U.S. is 2013 the facts don't lie.  African Americans are seven or eight times more likely to commit violent crime than whites.

See my edit; sorry about the crappy link.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

also


From FBI:
Mr. LaRive:
The Uniform Crime Reporting Program does not collect the age, sex, or race of victims in conjunction with offenses reported to the police with the exception of murder and nonnegligent homicide. You will find the data on the race of victims of homicide at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr....2.html.

Age, sex, and race of offenders are collected in conjunction with arrest data. You will find the arrest data by race at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_43.html. If you need further assistance with UCR Program data, please contact the FBI’s Communications Group at 304-625-4995.


^^ neither of those pages exist


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:46 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:42 pm)
QUOTE
Again, do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites?

You really are scared to answer these questions aren't you?

Not at all scared.  I don't think any race is inherently more violent than any other race.  However, in the U.S. is 2013 the facts don't lie.  African Americans are seven or eight times more likely to commit violent crime than whites.

See my edit; sorry about the crappy link.

Well then if no race is inherently more violent than any other race then that tells you
the only explanation that explain such differences are environmental such as poverty and
other economic factors.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The real story is black on white crime, which the news media completely ignores.  The statistics are shocking.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:45 pm)
QUOTE

(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 9:33 am)
QUOTE
Check it out Dennis

http://www.examiner.com/article....ormulas

Edit:  I'm having problems with the link.  It will take you to examiner.com, but then you'll have to search under the website for black on white crime statistics to find the article.  It's very informative, and based entirely on federal data.  Worth checking out.

Wow, I'm convinced.

"Uh-oh

We can't find the page you've specified. The address may have changed or we may be experiencing a temporary site hiccup.

To find the article we recommend using the search field above, or check out some of our amazing content featured below."

Or, well, not.

:D

There's a national bureau of crime statistics out there somewhere: might be superior to a webpage that doesn't exist? As a thought.

ETA: One such: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

I found this one just on murder

http://www.fbi.gov/about-u....l06.xls


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 22 2013, 12:49 pm)
QUOTE
Well then if no race is inherently more violent than any other race then that tells you
the only explanation that explain such differences are environmental such as poverty and
other economic factors.

Only if you view the world in strictly economic terms.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 12:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I said "such as"

that isn't the equivalent of saying
"the only explanation that explain such differences are economic factors"


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 1:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The debate over statistics misses the main point regarding the title of this thread:

The percentage of homicides between whites & blacks has no bearing whatsoever on the central issues of the Zimmerman trial and the killing of Trayvon Martin.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I also want to make the point that would the crime stats look like among various "races"
if they were broken down along income? For example would the crime statistics be all that
different among whites making under 5K compared to blacks making under 5K?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 2:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 11:35 am)
QUOTE
O.K. Dennis, if you're going to go statistical then try this one on for size:

Black are 50 times more likely to violently attack whites than vice versa.

It may only be 40 times more likely; I'm not going to quibble with the details.

Explain that with your geographical proximity theory.

A lot of it is simple numbers and statistics.  Whites outnumber blacks by something like 8 to 1.  There are just that many more white people around.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 4:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 10:33 am)
QUOTE
Check it out Dennis

http://www.examiner.com/article....ormulas

Edit:  I'm having problems with the link.  It will take you to examiner.com, but then you'll have to search under the website for black on white crime statistics to find the article.  It's very informative, and based entirely on federal data.  Worth checking out.

That article (if you take out the "br" tags that the forum-software inserts -- here's a Tinyurl link that'll get you there) quotes its stats solely from a single report put out by the "New Century Foundation", which is a white supremacist group that says it "extrapolated" their stats from various disparate sources of federal data.  The group's founder denies that "supremacist" claim, calling themselves "white separatist" instead, claiming we as a country should revert back to segregation.  My bad.

So your "shocking" stats come from a racial extremist group that wants to reinstate segregation.  And the story simply gets re-reported by "The Examiner" to thinly obscure the original source.



According to the FBI (perhaps a slightly more reputable group than the New Century Foundation), blacks murdered whites 447 times in 2010.  And whites murdered blacks 218 times.  Hardly a 39x difference.  Of course that doesn't involve other types of crime, but it hardly lends any support to the assertions made from a segregationist group and reported by the Examiner.

Awesome source.

Note to everyone:  When reading a story that summarizes some other report put out by some group with a benign-sounding name, try looking up the report and the actual group it came from.  Look back to the source if you want the truth.  Otherwise you're just joining in the big circle-jerk of political re-reporting that makes propaganda so easy to perpetuate.  The Examiner just listed "The New Century Foundation" as a group that "examines Federal Crime Reports", and didn't bother mentioning it's a group with the sole goal of re-instituting racial segregation in our country.  You'd think that might be relevant given the topic?  Curious thing.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

LOL!!!

I was waiting for their website to load up(http://www.colorofcrime.com/) but it wouldn't
load. I was kind of suspicious of the name(colorofcrime) and seems like the typical kind of
name you would expect from a racist white supremacist group. Of course I should have just
googled “New Century Foundation".

from sourcewatch.


The New Century Foundation, founded November 1990 and based in Oakton, Virginia, is a
"self-styled think tank that publishes a monthly journal and a Web site called American
Renaissance. Also hosts biannual conferences. The Foundation promotes pseudoscientific and
questionably researched and argued studies to validate the superiority of whites."[1]

The Foundation is headed by Samuel Jared Taylor, "author of Paved With Good Intentions: The
Failure of Race Relations in Contemporary America, a 1991 book that documented fundamental
problems with U.S. policies on civil rights, crime and welfare. ... But Mr. Taylor was
criticized as an advocate of 'the new white racism' by conservative author Dinesh D'Souza,
whose 1995 book The End of Racism reported many of the same racial problems Mr. Taylor had
examined in his earlier book."[2]

"Presenters at conferences have included Samuel Francis and Gordon Lee Baum of the Council
of Conservative Citizens. Attendees have included Don Black, operator of the white
supremacist Web site Stormfront, and National Alliance leader Kevin Alfred Strom. Taylor has
been a board member of the Council of Conservative Citizens, and is on the advisory board
and has contributed to the racist journal Occidental Quarterly."


http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=New_Century_Foundation

From the Wiki


The New Century Foundation is an organization founded in 1994 known primarily for publishing
American Renaissance. From 1994 to 1999 its activities received considerable funding by the
Pioneer Fund,[1][2][3] and has been described as a white supremacist group,[4] which its
founder, Jared Taylor, denies, calling it white separatist.

Taylor advocates segregation as a natural expression of racial solidarity while denying that
his views constitute white supremacism. Viewing societal problems as racial in nature,
Taylor upholds white racial homogeneity as the key to peaceful coexistence. He sees Japan as
an exemplar of a racially homogenous society, and views Asians generally as genetically
superior in intelligence to whites. He also view whites as genetically superior in
intelligence to blacks.[5][6]

Regarding Jews, the ADL writes that "Taylor eschews anti-Semitism. Seeing Jews as white,
greatly influential and the “conscience of society,” Taylor rather seeks to partner with
Jews who share his views on race and racial diversity" and "Jews have been speakers and/or
participants at all eight American Renaissance conferences" although controversy followed
accusations by David Duke, who was not a scheduled presenter, at the 2006 conference.[5]
Taylor in response wrote that "There will be no more disgraceful behavior of this kind if
people who attend AR conferences bear in mind that Jews have a valuable role in the work of
American Renaissance, and are welcome participants and speakers. Anyone who thinks otherwise
has the choice of staying home or keeping his views to himself."[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Century_Foundation

Its very telling a conservative source(Examiner.com which is at least somewhat right leaning)
would use such a source. HMMM Seems like that could tie in nicely with the other thread I
started I started("Is racist bigoted white supremacy, creeping into MSM conservatism?")

In the "Is racist bigoted white supremacy, creeping into MSM conservatism?" I said to
justwalkin based on his responses in that thread

"justwalkin, you sound like the type of person who reads a lot from stormfront or other
racist bigoted white supremacists websites."

http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1166014


I said that half-jokingly but maybe that statement from me was more true than I realized


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 5:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good job guys.
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Yep, good job guys, mission accomplished.  You attack the messengers but ignore the federally based statistics.  Continue on with your ignorance.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 7:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

the crime rate is much higher in black neighborhoods than it is in white neighborhoods in every major city.  That is the RATE of crime.  

Now we've got people blaming crime on segregation.  Taken to its logical conclusion, such an theory posits that black people can't resist committing crime when they live with each other.  BS.

And media matters needs to check its facts every now and statement it makes.

QUOTE
Chicago Tribune, July 12, 2012 - Violent crime has long afflicted minorities in Chicago at a much higher rate than the rest of the population, and the spike in homicides in the first half of this year provides an especially stark measure: 201 of the 259 homicide victims were African-American.

While blacks make up about 33 percent of the city's population, they accounted for nearly 78 percent of the homicide victims through the first six months of 2012.



By comparison, just 11 homicide victims in the first six months of the year were white, and 44 were Hispanic, according to police data.

The pattern is a familiar one in Chicago, where most violent crime happens in impoverished, mostly black neighborhoods on the South and West sides. Annual Chicago police statistics show a majority of both homicide victims and offenders are young black men with criminal records. With one exception, African-Americans have made up more than 70 percent of homicide victims in Chicago every year for the last two decades.


Homicide numbers reveal stark contrast: African-Americans hardest hit by spike in violence, deaths in Chicago
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justwalkin Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 7:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 22 2013, 4:27 pm)
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"justwalkin, you sound like the type of person who reads a lot from stormfront or other
racist bigoted white supremacists websites."

I have nothing but disgust for such organizations and I strongly resent this attack.

Forget about the middleman, since you seem to like to attack them anyway, instead of logically analyzing data.  Go to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and draw your own conclusions.  Go ahead.


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TehipiteTom Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 7:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 4:19 pm)
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Forget about the middleman, since you seem to like to attack them anyway, instead of logically analyzing data.  Go to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and draw your own conclusions.  Go ahead.

Someone did. You were wrong (by about 2000%).  

It's one thing to be ignorant of stuff you actually have to expend energy to learn about; it's quite another to be ignorant of facts that are presented in the thread where you're posting. That's just pathetic.


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justwalkin Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 8:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 22 2013, 7:57 pm)
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(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 4:19 pm)
QUOTE
Forget about the middleman, since you seem to like to attack them anyway, instead of logically analyzing data.  Go to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and draw your own conclusions.  Go ahead.

Someone did. You were wrong (by about 2000%).  

It's one thing to be ignorant of stuff you actually have to expend energy to learn about; it's quite another to be ignorant of facts that are presented in the thread where you're posting. That's just pathetic.

I see you are ignorant of statistics as well.  When you factor in whites outnumbering blacks by about 8 to 1 the results are even more shockingly skewed.

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GoBlueHiker Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 22 2013, 9:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 6:08 pm)
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(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 22 2013, 7:57 pm)
QUOTE

(justwalkin @ Jul. 22 2013, 4:19 pm)
QUOTE
Forget about the middleman, since you seem to like to attack them anyway, instead of logically analyzing data.  Go to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports and draw your own conclusions.  Go ahead.

Someone did. You were wrong (by about 2000%).  

It's one thing to be ignorant of stuff you actually have to expend energy to learn about; it's quite another to be ignorant of facts that are presented in the thread where you're posting. That's just pathetic.

I see you are ignorant of statistics as well.  When you factor in whites outnumbering blacks by about 8 to 1 the results are even more shockingly skewed.

That 8 to 1 ratio affects the stats on both sides (white-on-black and black-on-white crime).  It doesn't actually skew those particular stats in the one-sided way you seem to think it does.  If the crime rate between each group were equal you'd see the same numbers each way (think about it, that actually does make sense given the base populations of potential "attackers" and potential "victims" in each scenario).  As it is the rate is roughly 2-1.  Not great, but it's a far dry from the 39x your white-supremacist statistics group "extrapolates" from it.  Think about your own intro statistics a bit before jumping in to lecture others.


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