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Topic: Religous Demographics, Also Bad for Republicans!< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 1:38 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There has been lots of coverage about the demographic  cliff(s) that the right wingers are facing in the next few years but this is first I have been aware of how strongly the religous demographics are shifting also.



A 30% decrease in religous conservatives, balanced by a 23% increase in non-religious and religous progressives.  Best statistical news I have seen in a while, pretty similar to women are steadily turning away from the political right.

One might assume that the increasing diversity of the population is a driving factor in the shift, but Jones says this is not the case. African-Americans tend to be theologically conservative -- 49 percent, as opposed to 14 percent who are liberals -- but are more progressive on economic and social issues. Hispanic Americans are far more likely to be religiously moderate, and they don't tip the scales one way or the other. "It's mostly age," Jones says. "Younger whites, whose parents were far more conservative, are the ones who look significantly different."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politic....ks=true


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Government is becoming the new religion.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 3:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If you want to see what happens when a country turns it's back on God, read Jeremiah 2
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 5:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 26 2013, 2:07 pm)
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If you want to see what happens when a country turns it's back on God, read Jeremiah 2

Absolutely relevant!

Given that God drowned New Orleans after that sinful city held a Gay Pride parade, I shudder to think what would happen when paragons of virtue like Michele Bachmann and Louis Gohmert lose political support in our country!

Maybe the Westboro Baptist Church has the answers.


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(Drift Woody @ Jul. 26 2013, 3:48 pm)
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Maybe the Westboro Baptist Church has the answers.

I like your sarcasm.  But, in reality, Westboro does not represent almost every Christian I know.  We can disagree with some of the things that people stand for.  But, we must still love and help out people in need.  Not single them out and ostracize, protest and whatever.  It is insensitive, and not what Christ would do.

As LB pointed out, in the Bible God did take retribution on places or people that disobeyed him or had led sinful lives.  It is not up to us to do so.  This country was founded on Biblical principles, and we've gone a long ways from what the founding fathers intended.  But, at the same time, it is not up to me to say that Katrina was retribution for that, or the things that Westboro protests.  Our system still works, for the most part.


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(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 2:57 pm)
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This country was founded on Biblical principles...

[facepalm][eyeroll]

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 6:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 4:57 pm)
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I like your sarcasm.

Thanks; I felt compelled to respond to Lame's post, and sarcasm seemed the most appropriate form of expression  :;):

There's a difference between religiosity & virtue, and I don't think the latter requires belief in God.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 8:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 5:57 pm)
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As LB pointed out, in the Bible God did take retribution on places or people that disobeyed him or had led sinful lives.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy."

Ez. 16:49

Yep, that's right, Republicans were the cause of great fire and brimstone apocalypse.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 26 2013, 10:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 26 2013, 6:02 pm)
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(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 2:57 pm)
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This country was founded on Biblical principles...

[facepalm][eyeroll]

Thank gawd our founders endorsed no one God over any other. Burntfoot I would say "a few" principles of scripture that are shared by many faiths before and after Christ were important to some of the founders, but overall you're quite off here given the Bible and Christianity promote significant exclusion and the heart of the Declaration, Constitution, etc. is the principle of INCLUSION.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 12:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,


Last sentence of the U.S. Constitution.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 2:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

ANNO DOMINI, in the year of our Lord, abbreviated, A. D.

I suppose every author that uses the term A.D. to designate a specific date is professing his religious beliefs.

Geez.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 2:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Apparently, for some, the tooth fairy is still real!

Good grief.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 2:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The following is from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President):

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 2:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yep, some of the nastiest political infighting and slander in US political history happened around the campaigns of Jefferson and later of Jackson.  They make the campaigns of today look like childs play.  Everything was in play in those days, no matter how personal, or how false.

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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 3:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And it drives me nuts when people don't take the time to learn what our founders actually believed and instead just project their own beliefs into them.

Here's something from the author of the Constitution:

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." [Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

And then Alexander Hamilton who co-authored the Federalist Papers to sell the Constitution to the country:

"The world has been scourged with many fanatical sects in religion who, inflamed by sincere but mistaken zeal, have perpetuated under the idea of serving God the most atrocious crimes" (Hamilton, unpublished report on "The Cause of France" see Chernow, p. 659).
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(HighGravity @ Jul. 26 2013, 6:55 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 5:57 pm)
QUOTE
As LB pointed out, in the Bible God did take retribution on places or people that disobeyed him or had led sinful lives.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy."

Ez. 16:49

Yep, that's right, Republicans were the cause of great fire and brimstone apocalypse.

That's reading a LOT into things.  Taking one verse by itself is going on shaky ground.  Yes, this was just one facit of what happened back then.  But, the main cause of the destruction was the immorality of the place.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Jul. 26 2013, 8:33 pm)
QUOTE
Thank gawd our founders endorsed no one God over any other. Burntfoot I would say "a few" principles of scripture that are shared by many faiths before and after Christ were important to some of the founders, but overall you're quite off here given the Bible and Christianity promote significant exclusion and the heart of the Declaration, Constitution, etc. is the principle of INCLUSION.

You are trying to compare your perspective of Christianity today to what was present over 200 years ago.  There are some aspects of Christianity that are shared by other faiths.  There will always be an overlap to some extent.  

Regarding exclusion versus inclusion.  The Bible indicates that God does not want to exclude anyone.  The gospel message is open to everyone who receives it.  It doesn't say to punish those that don't or to judge them.  If there is any judgement, then that is up to God.  That is where Westboro is wrong.  They are trying to play god.  Whereas God is slow to anger and merciful according to the Bible.  Many instances of second chances, etc.  

Finally, at the Constitutional Convention, negotiations almost broke down completely.  One faction wanted strong states rights, another a strong central government.  At the crucial point when the convention almost broke up, it was Benjamin Franklin who recommended a time of prayer to invoke God to help with the negotiations, and to start each session with prayer.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 5:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(burntfoot @ Jul. 27 2013, 3:12 pm)
QUOTE
Finally, at the Constitutional Convention, negotiations almost broke down completely.  One faction wanted strong states rights, another a strong central government.  At the crucial point when the convention almost broke up, it was Benjamin Franklin who recommended a time of prayer to invoke God to help with the negotiations, and to start each session with prayer.

Does this mean that the clause that stated slaves would only be counted as 3/5ths of a person was divinely inspired? Fortunately, you're off the hook on that one since the Franklin prayer story is a myth. It's another example of people rewriting history in their own image.

From the Library of Congress:
"Responding to the divisive tension among the delegates that threatened to jeopardize the purpose of the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin proposed that a clergyman lead a daily prayer to provide divine guidance in resolving differences. The delegates declined the proposal, citing the numerous religious sects represented in the Convention and a lack of funds to pay a chaplain."

or The Franklin Prayer Myth:
"The documentation of the Convention states only that Dr. Franklin proposed daily prayer led by a clergyman and that the Convention adjourned without passing the motion. Records of the remainder of the convention indicate that acrimonious debate continued right through to the end."

One potential source of the convention achieving the compromise we now know as the Constitution is Alexander Hamilton's 6-hour speech where he lectured the delegates on the example of Europe and their continuous state of war between separate states. He argued for the strong federal government to moderate disputes that would eventually arise between the states. So a knowledge of history, sound logic, and good communication skills eventually saved the day.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 6:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It would seem that knowing just a little bit of history is more dangerous than not knowing any at all.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 8:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thank you for providing the facts on the claim about Franklin and the prayer myth.

There are so many of these false claims of god fearing behavior by the Founding Fathers that constant vigliance is needed.

I would think that anyone who has read a serious biography of Franklin, including his many quotes and detailing his personal behavior would know how unlikely it would be for him to be leading prayers!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 9:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(burntfoot @ Jul. 27 2013, 3:03 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Jul. 26 2013, 6:55 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 5:57 pm)
QUOTE
As LB pointed out, in the Bible God did take retribution on places or people that disobeyed him or had led sinful lives.

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy."

Ez. 16:49

Yep, that's right, Republicans were the cause of great fire and brimstone apocalypse.

That's reading a LOT into things.  Taking one verse by itself is going on shaky ground.  Yes, this was just one facit of what happened back then.  But, the main cause of the destruction was the immorality of the place.

Yet there's no where that actually says that. But you believe it anyway while ignoring this verse that actually gives the reasons. It's a disgusting story all the way around. God saves the one "righteous" man and his family, and then right afterwards this righteous man gets drunk and bangs both his daughters.  Of course this is the same father who tried to offer those same daughters to rapists earlier.  Great moral lesson you got here.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 27 2013, 9:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(burntfoot @ Jul. 27 2013, 3:12 pm)
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The Bible indicates that God does not want to exclude anyone.  

How about the Midianites?
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(wwwest @ Jul. 27 2013, 8:27 pm)
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constant vigilance is needed.

With constant vigilance being an understatement. Those who would delude themselves with 2000-year-old poorly and corruptly translated documents have little restraint in believing fabrications and misinterpretations of what occurred a few hundred years ago.

One person in this realm to be on the watch for is David Barton. He's created a cottage industry out of further deluding his fellow believers about the founding fathers:

The Most Influential Evangelist You've Never Heard Of
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 28 2013, 7:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Speaking of Ez. 16:49.....what happened to the babies and kids in Sodom?

I just read that passage, and it didn't give many details.

Depending on what happened, let's be cautious when we rely on the bible in the construct of any constitution.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 28 2013, 8:14 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 26 2013, 4:02 pm)
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(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 2:57 pm)
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This country was founded on Biblical principles...

[facepalm][eyeroll]

Based on religious principles,not religion itself. Big difference.

Such as.... the Golden Rule and Good Samaritan parable are religion based but are you going to ignore them because of that basis?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 28 2013, 8:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
The Bible indicates that God does not want to exclude anyone.  The gospel message is open to everyone who receives it.  It doesn't say to punish those that don't or to judge them.

"Thou shalt not have any other god before me" with severe punishments, including wiping out the entire world's population, less 8, by flood for failing to do so. That's pretty damn exclusive.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 28 2013, 10:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Jul. 28 2013, 7:14 am)
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(TehipiteTom @ Jul. 26 2013, 4:02 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Jul. 26 2013, 2:57 pm)
QUOTE
This country was founded on Biblical principles...

[facepalm][eyeroll]

Based on religious principles,not religion itself. Big difference.

Such as.... the Golden Rule and Good Samaritan parable are religion based but are you going to ignore them because of that basis?

The United States was founded as a Republic, with the informed consent of the governed. It was also founded on the principle of religious freedom. Citizens can worship as they choose, or not at all.

Are those biblical principles (or the principles of the Christian religion in historical context up to the late 18th century)? I think not.

One does not need religion to embrace the values of the Golden Rule, or to craft a Constitution based on human rights and the rule of law.


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(Montanalonewolf @ Jul. 28 2013, 6:14 am)
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Based on religious principles,not religion itself. Big difference.

That's what I said, and that's what I meant.  Biblical principles.  We have freedom to worship the way we please.  The founding fathers never did try to impose religion on anyone.

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(burntfoot @ Jul. 28 2013, 7:42 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Jul. 28 2013, 6:14 am)
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Based on religious principles,not religion itself. Big difference.

That's what I said, and that's what I meant.  Biblical principles.  We have freedom to worship the way we please.  The founding fathers never did try to impose religion on anyone.

And exactly what "biblical principles" are those? Where in the Bible does it lay out foundational principles for a society that works anything at all like ours?

Because the way I learned it, the United States was founded more on Enlightenment principles (consent of the governed, etc.) than on anything anyone living in biblical times would recognize.

ETA: One could actually make an argument that the Reformation had some influence on the development of republican government. But that's about a millennium and a half after anything in the Bible.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 28 2013, 11:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Biblical principles

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