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Topic: Example of Xtian Bigotry< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 12:45 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One more prime example demonstrating why young people are leaving the fundamentalist churches almost as fast as they are leaving the Republican Party:

CNN)–The mother of a gay detective has been booted from the Tennessee church she attended for decades.

Elders at Ridgedale Church of Christ told Linda Cooper and two relatives that their public support for Kat Cooper, Linda Cooper's gay daughter, went against the church's teachings, local media reported. In a private meeting, reports say, Linda Cooper was given a choice: publicly atone for their transgressions or leave the church.

Linda left the church.

Kat Cooper is a detective with the Collegedale Police Department. This month, she fought successfully for health benefits for her same-sex spouse, Krista, from the town.

The Board of Commissioners passed a resolution allowing for same-sex partner benefits, becoming the first city in Tennessee to do so.

Along the way, the mother publicly supported her daughter. That support appears to have led to a rift with her church.


http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_t2


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 12:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That's really awful. Any religious leader who asks a parishioner to love a rule more than they love their daughter has seriously gotten their signals crossed.

Thank goodness the mother made the right choice.

Two of our three kids (now young adults) identify as bisexual. My in-laws have basically cut us out of their lives because of this. (Or, more precisely, because we love and support them and don't condemn their sexual orientation.) I understand personally the kind of pain that this sort of foolishness causes.

To split hairs, I would be more inclined to call this homophobic bigotry, since that is, IMHO, the root cause of this awful behavior. Plenty of people manage to be Christian without being like that. (Although I acknowledge that you did use the qualifier "fundamentalist churches" in your opening sentence. I would say that this church represents a particularly bat$hit form of fundamentalist Christianity.)
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 1:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I find it ironic that Jesus himself would be kicked out of a good proportion of Christian churches.

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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 1:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 23 2013, 12:45 pm)
QUOTE
One more prime example demonstrating why young people are leaving the fundamentalist churches almost as fast as they are leaving the Republican Party:

CNN)–The mother of a gay detective has been booted from the Tennessee church she attended for decades.

Elders at Ridgedale Church of Christ told Linda Cooper and two relatives that their public support for Kat Cooper, Linda Cooper's gay daughter, went against the church's teachings, local media reported. In a private meeting, reports say, Linda Cooper was given a choice: publicly atone for their transgressions or leave the church.

Linda left the church.

Kat Cooper is a detective with the Collegedale Police Department. This month, she fought successfully for health benefits for her same-sex spouse, Krista, from the town.

The Board of Commissioners passed a resolution allowing for same-sex partner benefits, becoming the first city in Tennessee to do so.

Along the way, the mother publicly supported her daughter. That support appears to have led to a rift with her church.


http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_t2

How do you define "prime example?"

I think we can agree that I'm both religious and conservative.  And I (and my church's policies) whole heartedly disagree with this church's actions, and agree with the mother's decision to withdraw from the church.

Further, I (and my church)  firmly believe in and advocate for same-sex partners recieving all the benefits of hetero partners.

Clearly, I and my church fall OUTside your "prime example".
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 1:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, just barely outside, and, only recently outside.  

Maybe they are able to learn and change a little faster than the Party of NO, but it is still a glacial pace, IMO.

Have you noticed something different about the Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) recently?

In 1995, the Mormon Church made its marriage position official by issuing a proclamation carrying the weight of scripture that declared marriage between a man and a woman the bedrock of society.

In June, 2008, same-sex marriage was made legal in California due to a ruling by the Supreme Court of California based on an equal protection argument. The LDS immediately swung into action with their formidable organizing skills and networks, sending as many as 25,000 canvassers per weekend to go door to door in California.

In November, 2008, California’s Proposition 8 passed by 52.3 percent to 47.7 percent, and same-sex marriage was once more eliminated.  That yes vote was largely propelled by the Mormon Church, whose members had contributed some $22 million in to this vicious campaign.

The Mormons have been credited with almost single-handedly getting Prop. 8 passed, despite a well-funded opposition with backing from Hollywood.


http://www.care2.com/causes....ia.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Does this ring a bell for you Ken??

I posted a brief item here recently about the PR nightmare facing the Mormon Church as a result of the prominent role it played this year promoting Proposition 8 to ban same-sex marriage in California. At the urging of church leaders, Mormons spent about $20 million on the effort, which probably provided the margin that enabled the proposition to pass.

There is some irony in the fact that Mormon pollster Gary Lawrence, who led the Proposition 8 grassroots campaign for the church in California, has a gay son, Matthew, who publicly resigned from the church to protest its anti-gay campaign. Matthew says that after his father's participation in "two anti-gay initiatives in eight years, it's impossible not to feel attacked."

Adding further to the irony, Gary Lawrence has a new book out, titled How Americans View Mormonism: Seven Steps to Improve Our Image. His advice to Mormons who want to be better liked is, "Simply be yourself" -- advice that drew a sharp response from one blogger, who pointed out that being yourself "is a poor prescription for winning friends when 'who you are' is someone willing to lead a campaign to strip your own child of his civil rights."


http://www.prwatch.org/node/7999


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi...


I don't care who or what you are. Many of my clientele were gay, and were the nicest, intelligent, and prosperous people I've met. Many of them also had families of their own.

For a "church" or "preacher" to act in such a manner is pure hypocracy it its worst. My Grandson was gay...yet was strongly supported by his family, friends and his schoolmates.

Unfortunately, he passed away a year ago at age 19.

Yet, any so-called "preacher" who wishes to use the "good book" to promulgate such views just has to say that in the bible, god says that "gays should be killed"...!! (leviticus 20, v. 13, I think).

Maybe god isn't so nice after all...!!
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Pathfinder1 The only way that can get hung on God is were the preacher also actively stoning people wearing cloth of mixed threads and those who worked on a sabbath. Otherwise it's just that preacher and his/her followers choosing a line in an old book to support the personal choice to live a life of hate.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 23 2013, 9:45 am)
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Along the way, the mother publicly supported her daughter.

I think that is the issue.  Membership has its privileges and responsibilities.

Membership in a church -- all are welcome (who here isn't a sinner?) -- but we are expected to do our best to follow church teachings.  It is NO sin to be born straight or gay.  But public support of a daughter's gay lifestyle does contravene church teachings.  Kind of like....

Membership in the Catholic priesthood -- both gay and straight men are eligible.  But imagine the mother of a hetero priest publicly supporting her son's "right" to a spouse or even a family of his own!  That contravenes church laws as well.

Obviously, life is seldom so black and white.  Are we Christians saying that gay people should hide who they are?  Well, are both straight and gay priests also hiding who they really are?  Well, a part of our religion is actually to control ourselves in part and even to deny ourselves in other parts.  And some of us here freely wag our fingers at those who fail, don't we?  ???

Bottom line -- we must be honest with our beliefs -- meaning we must be honest with ourselves.  That's why church membership must be free and open for anyone to join -- or change their minds and not join.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 23 2013, 11:20 am)
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Pathfinder1 The only way that can get hung on God is were the preacher also actively stoning people wearing cloth of mixed threads and those who worked on a sabbath. Otherwise it's just that preacher and his/her followers choosing a line in an old book to support the personal choice to live a life of hate.

Aye.  How often do we believers ignore the bits about love and forgiveness -- preferring to hone in on just those parts that we can use as weapons  against others!!  :(


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 2:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 23 2013, 11:45 am)
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I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?

I believe in options and free will to choose.

My bone against Islam isn't so much what people choose to believe -- but how hard it is for Muslims to leave their religion freely and without hindrance.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 4:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 23 2013, 2:45 pm)
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I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?

I'm opposed to the ones that behead you as much as yours, the one that will burn you at the stake.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 5:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've been learning a great deal about Islam lately. The Smithsonian Channel is currently running a three part program called Islam and the West and PBS has an excellent 6 hour documentary on the history of Islam. In Islam's first war with Christians (Byzantine), they observed the rule of granting mercy when an enemy asked for peace. It was Christians that violated that early truce. Much like Christianity, Islam has some very sound philosophy which has been kidnapped for the perverse purposes of some very backwards and barbaric (hateful) individuals. It would seem that the followers of many religions are sheep, that are easily led astray. I have stated elsewhere, the one of Islam's chief shortcomings, is that is trailing behind Christianity in its social evolution by 600 years.

The fact is, most people, of almost any persuasion, religious, ethnic, or political, are decent peace loving people. When you gather them into groups of any sort, they are readily manipulated by greed, and lust for power.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?


Hey, I am equally against all religions, it's just Xtians that happen to be the power structure in the county where I live.

Basing your philosophical structure for life on a set of mythologys is a huge fail, IMO, no matter which set of mythologys you decide to follow.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 5:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Maybe god isn't after all...!!

There, fixed it for you!


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 7:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Aug. 23 2013, 2:05 pm)
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I have stated elsewhere, the one of Islam's chief shortcomings, is that is trailing behind Christianity in its social evolution by 600 years.

The fact is, most people, of almost any persuasion, religious, ethnic, or political, are decent peace loving people. When you gather them into groups of any sort, they are readily manipulated by greed, and lust for power.

IMO, the lowest common denominator is not Islam -- but fundamentally the human being's way of learning and maturing.

Judaism

a.  Infancy/childhood -- first few hundred years - tribal - fluid and flexible -- informal heads and "judges".

b.  Adolescent -- next thousand years - King David's time to Jesus Christ -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude -- stoning for all kinds of transgressions and rise / popularity of Pharisees.  When Jesus was alive, Judaism was roughly 1,500 years old.

c.  Maturity -- mellower, wiser.  How many mainstream rabbis call for stoning and death today?  Zero?  No more Pharisees!


Christianity

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years - love / agape -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (500AD - 1500 AD) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among medieval clergy.

c.  Maturity - today -- still behind Judaism, but at least now, mellower and wiser as well.  More able to appreciate the different shades of grey in life.

Islam

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years (starting around 600AD) -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.  Spread like wildfire -- absorbed all kinds of knowledge from the ancients -- keeping them alive and transmitting them back to the Christians during the latter' Renaissance years.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (1400AD - Today) -- Islam is now 1,400 years old and behaving almost exactly like Christians in their times (medieval period) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among thei clergy.

c.  Maturity - To come.  But know that transition from adolescent to adulthood can be traumatic.  Remember the couple hundreds of years of Christian religious wars fought back in 1500s - 1600's??

Finally -- it's not just religion that involves collective learning/growth/maturity.  Pick politics!  Look at ourselves with the concept of Democracy.  Our American society is now a few hundred years old -- and like humans in their infancy/childhood -- we exhibit the same wide-eyed enthusiasm -- and we SO WANT TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY everywhere -- even if we have to use our military!!  Sound familiar??

Bottom Line:  It isn't religion or politics -- it is simply the way we human beings collectively learn and grow and mature -- at whatever subject matter.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 8:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 23 2013, 5:11 pm)
QUOTE
I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?


Hey, I am equally against all religions, it's just Xtians that happen to be the power structure in the county where I live.

Basing your philosophical structure for life on a set of mythologys is a huge fail, IMO, no matter which set of mythologys you decide to follow.

Believe it or not, we agree.

I am not religious.  I was raised Southern Baptist but have effectively excommunicated myself.

I have flummoxed and frustrated preachers and pastors with logic and science all my life.  My favorite argument is Martin Luther's: Why do I need you to talk to God?

I just find it hilarious that no one will take on the Islamists that will threaten to take their head if insulted.  From personal experience, I've found they quiet down when you threaten to cut them in half with a shotgun.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 9:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 23 2013, 7:02 pm)
QUOTE

(Ecocentric @ Aug. 23 2013, 2:05 pm)
QUOTE
I have stated elsewhere, the one of Islam's chief shortcomings, is that is trailing behind Christianity in its social evolution by 600 years.

The fact is, most people, of almost any persuasion, religious, ethnic, or political, are decent peace loving people. When you gather them into groups of any sort, they are readily manipulated by greed, and lust for power.

IMO, the lowest common denominator is not Islam -- but fundamentally the human being's way of learning and maturing.

Judaism

a.  Infancy/childhood -- first few hundred years - tribal - fluid and flexible -- informal heads and "judges".

b.  Adolescent -- next thousand years - King David's time to Jesus Christ -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude -- stoning for all kinds of transgressions and rise / popularity of Pharisees.  When Jesus was alive, Judaism was roughly 1,500 years old.

c.  Maturity -- mellower, wiser.  How many mainstream rabbis call for stoning and death today?  Zero?  No more Pharisees!


Christianity

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years - love / agape -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (500AD - 1500 AD) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among medieval clergy.

c.  Maturity - today -- still behind Judaism, but at least now, mellower and wiser as well.  More able to appreciate the different shades of grey in life.

Islam

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years (starting around 600AD) -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.  Spread like wildfire -- absorbed all kinds of knowledge from the ancients -- keeping them alive and transmitting them back to the Christians during the latter' Renaissance years.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (1400AD - Today) -- Islam is now 1,400 years old and behaving almost exactly like Christians in their times (medieval period) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among thei clergy.

c.  Maturity - To come.  But know that transition from adolescent to adulthood can be traumatic.  Remember the couple hundreds of years of Christian religious wars fought back in 1500s - 1600's??

Finally -- it's not just religion that involves collective learning/growth/maturity.  Pick politics!  Look at ourselves with the concept of Democracy.  Our American society is now a few hundred years old -- and like humans in their infancy/childhood -- we exhibit the same wide-eyed enthusiasm -- and we SO WANT TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY everywhere -- even if we have to use our military!!  Sound familiar??

Bottom Line:  It isn't religion or politics -- it is simply the way we human beings collectively learn and grow and mature -- at whatever subject matter.

I'd say the more obvious common denominator is the worship of Yahweh, the temperamental tyrannical goodish like invention.
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(TDale @ Aug. 23 2013, 8:39 pm)
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My favorite argument is Martin Luther's: Why do I need you to talk to God?

Luther? The anti-semite? Surely you jest.
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(HighGravity @ Aug. 23 2013, 6:49 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 23 2013, 7:02 pm)
QUOTE

(Ecocentric @ Aug. 23 2013, 2:05 pm)
QUOTE
I have stated elsewhere, the one of Islam's chief shortcomings, is that is trailing behind Christianity in its social evolution by 600 years.

The fact is, most people, of almost any persuasion, religious, ethnic, or political, are decent peace loving people. When you gather them into groups of any sort, they are readily manipulated by greed, and lust for power.

IMO, the lowest common denominator is not Islam -- but fundamentally the human being's way of learning and maturing.

Judaism

a.  Infancy/childhood -- first few hundred years - tribal - fluid and flexible -- informal heads and "judges".

b.  Adolescent -- next thousand years - King David's time to Jesus Christ -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude -- stoning for all kinds of transgressions and rise / popularity of Pharisees.  When Jesus was alive, Judaism was roughly 1,500 years old.

c.  Maturity -- mellower, wiser.  How many mainstream rabbis call for stoning and death today?  Zero?  No more Pharisees!


Christianity

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years - love / agape -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (500AD - 1500 AD) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among medieval clergy.

c.  Maturity - today -- still behind Judaism, but at least now, mellower and wiser as well.  More able to appreciate the different shades of grey in life.

Islam

a.  Infancy/childhood - first few hundred years (starting around 600AD) -- child like innocence and enthusiasm -- fluid / flexible.  Spread like wildfire -- absorbed all kinds of knowledge from the ancients -- keeping them alive and transmitting them back to the Christians during the latter' Renaissance years.

b.  Adolescence - next thousand years (1400AD - Today) -- Islam is now 1,400 years old and behaving almost exactly like Christians in their times (medieval period) -- more rigid in thinking -- more inflexible -- "know it all" attitude among thei clergy.

c.  Maturity - To come.  But know that transition from adolescent to adulthood can be traumatic.  Remember the couple hundreds of years of Christian religious wars fought back in 1500s - 1600's??

Finally -- it's not just religion that involves collective learning/growth/maturity.  Pick politics!  Look at ourselves with the concept of Democracy.  Our American society is now a few hundred years old -- and like humans in their infancy/childhood -- we exhibit the same wide-eyed enthusiasm -- and we SO WANT TO SPREAD DEMOCRACY everywhere -- even if we have to use our military!!  Sound familiar??

Bottom Line:  It isn't religion or politics -- it is simply the way we human beings collectively learn and grow and mature -- at whatever subject matter.

I'd say the more obvious common denominator is the worship of Yahweh, the temperamental tyrannical goodish like invention.

Then perhaps you should look into how other religions evolve?  Read about Buddhism as an example -- which is perceived as a gentle religion -- and today, it is in many ways.  But look up some earlier teachings about self immolation -- to show compassion by feeding parts of one's own limbs to hungry tigers, hawks, etc.   Extremism that just isn't encouraged among Buddhists today.

And again, is it really just religion?  Can you think of secular movements that also evolve through early euphoria -- then extremism -- before mellowing down?


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 10:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben you're a smart guy. What belief system even comes close to the amount of horror enacted by the worshipers of Yahweh? Even the followers of Satan don't compare.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 23 2013, 11:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Aug. 23 2013, 7:22 pm)
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Ben you're a smart guy. What belief system even comes close to the amount of horror enacted by the worshipers of Yahweh? Even the followers of Satan don't compare.

I don't really want to get into a counter-productive contest of who's 'badder' or who's 'baddest'.  But suffice to say -- in the religious sphere -- there were (and occasionally still are) non-Christian belief systems that called for regular human sacrifices.  And immolations.  And many other acts besides.

And in the secular sphere -- we have recoiled at the horrors of the 'godless' French Revolution. the  Mexican Revolution, and of course, the Bolshevik Revolution.  It's not just 'patriotism' gone amok (i.e. love of country twisted by some secular leaderships just as love of God is regularly twisted by some religious leaderships) -- but much the same ego, greed and lust for power at work too -- resulting in untold deaths and unspeakable suffering.

To me, both the good and the bad of our endeavors result from the dynamics of the human psyche -- which I see as the obvious LCD (lowest common denominator).


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

TDale, just what are you asking for?

I'm glad to hear that science and reason guide your world view. How much condemnation do you require for each specific branch of the Abrahamic religions?

Is beheading worse then stoning or burning at the stake?

It is interesting that you quote Luther. His intention was to reform the Roman Catholic Church, and his written words, distributed to the masses by the newly invented printing press, brought thirty years of war to much of Europe. This is exactly where the abhorrent violence within Islamic culture is, thanks to the internet. Maybe Luther was peace loving monk, but his words set to the organ music of Bach, "A mighty fortress is our God, a trusty shield and weapon...," helped to inspire generations of Christians (especially Germans, my people) to make war on others whose belief's differed slightly. The power of metaphor is as ambiguous as is it's meaning. I know, there were some control issues and politics involved; there always are. Many of those people 'wielding the sword' were more motivated by their own wishes, then the will of God and the same is true today. Some of those people live in Texas and Tennessee as well as in Riyadh, Rome, and Kandahar; Jesus was not so particular with the degree of magnitude of the transgressions that he considered sins. His lessons were more about intent then degree. What happened to Joan of Arc? Was the Inquisition more benevolent than the Holocaust because there was a lower body count? Ben made a good point, religion and politics will both commit atrocities in the ages before they achieve true maturity.

If you want to be a culture warrior, don't choose your enemies because of their culture, fight against the negative aspects that are inherent to every culture. Strive towards the virtues that all cultures value. The prosperity of our species, and the maximum utilization of our planets evolutionary resources depend on the emergence of a global culture that isn't hampered by ignorance and petty bickering that uses weapons of mass destruction or less violent destructive means to impose ideals.

Maybe I am channeling Gabby, but I hope that Ben can explain this in terms that Jimmy might be able to understand.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 12:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 23 2013, 1:45 pm)
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I'd like, once, to see some Christian basher from here take the same stance regarding Islam.

Step up and denounce the violence and hatred.  Or do you feel that a religion that'll behead you is too much to speak against?

So basically you are asking who has the better imaginary friend.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 12:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why do people find it so hard to disagree without being a dick about it?
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 7:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 23 2013, 11:52 pm)
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(HighGravity @ Aug. 23 2013, 7:22 pm)
QUOTE
Ben you're a smart guy. What belief system even comes close to the amount of horror enacted by the worshipers of Yahweh? Even the followers of Satan don't compare.

I don't really want to get into a counter-productive contest of who's 'badder' or who's 'baddest'.  But suffice to say -- in the religious sphere -- there were (and occasionally still are) non-Christian belief systems that called for regular human sacrifices.  And immolations.  And many other acts besides.

And in the secular sphere -- we have recoiled at the horrors of the 'godless' French Revolution. the  Mexican Revolution, and of course, the Bolshevik Revolution.  It's not just 'patriotism' gone amok (i.e. love of country twisted by some secular leaderships just as love of God is regularly twisted by some religious leaderships) -- but much the same ego, greed and lust for power at work too -- resulting in untold deaths and unspeakable suffering.

To me, both the good and the bad of our endeavors result from the dynamics of the human psyche -- which I see as the obvious LCD (lowest common denominator).

Referring to something as "secular" when the vast majority of people involved are Christian is highly dishonest. I'd expect that from KenV, not from you.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 11:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Aug. 24 2013, 4:33 am)
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(Ben2World @ Aug. 23 2013, 11:52 pm)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Aug. 23 2013, 7:22 pm)
QUOTE
Ben you're a smart guy. What belief system even comes close to the amount of horror enacted by the worshipers of Yahweh? Even the followers of Satan don't compare.

I don't really want to get into a counter-productive contest of who's 'badder' or who's 'baddest'.  But suffice to say -- in the religious sphere -- there were (and occasionally still are) non-Christian belief systems that called for regular human sacrifices.  And immolations.  And many other acts besides.

And in the secular sphere -- we have recoiled at the horrors of the 'godless' French Revolution. the  Mexican Revolution, and of course, the Bolshevik Revolution.  It's not just 'patriotism' gone amok (i.e. love of country twisted by some secular leaderships just as love of God is regularly twisted by some religious leaderships) -- but much the same ego, greed and lust for power at work too -- resulting in untold deaths and unspeakable suffering.

To me, both the good and the bad of our endeavors result from the dynamics of the human psyche -- which I see as the obvious LCD (lowest common denominator).

Referring to something as "secular" when the vast majority of people involved are Christian is highly dishonest. I'd expect that from KenV, not from you.

The Bolsheviks were hell bent on eradicating Christianity -- and other religions -- in the name of 'science'. But then, the leadership's desire for power and control and privileges (for themselves) didn't go away, did it?

And same same with the Chinese Communists.  And they ain't Christians, are they?  ???

Finally, just as certain religious can go to extremes, so can the seculars.  Take North Korea.  IMO, even if you can eradicate all the gods and goddesses -- to the point where no human being would believe in them at all -- the human psyche is fully capable of installing a replacement worship -- a 'godless cult' that is every bit as fanatical -- as one can see in NK today, or communist China in the recent past.

I believe that those who think religion or certain religion is somehow the root of evil -- completely miss the point that even if the gods/goddesses behind the religon exist -- the religion itself is still human creation and control to a great extent.  There are plenty of other human institutions for the human psyche to create and use for control and other purposes.  Think through that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 3:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Religion isn't the root of evil, but it is the abandonment of reason and therefore the first step in getting others to abandon their natural skepticism of bullsh*t. From that point it become much easier to get them to believe whatever you tell them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 24 2013, 3:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 23 2013, 1:33 pm)
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Well, just barely outside, and, only recently outside.  

Maybe they are able to learn and change a little faster than the Party of NO, but it is still a glacial pace, IMO.

Have you noticed something different about the Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) recently?

In 1995, the Mormon Church made its marriage position official by issuing a proclamation carrying the weight of scripture that declared marriage between a man and a woman the bedrock of society.

In June, 2008, same-sex marriage was made legal in California due to a ruling by the Supreme Court of California based on an equal protection argument. The LDS immediately swung into action with their formidable organizing skills and networks, sending as many as 25,000 canvassers per weekend to go door to door in California.

In November, 2008, California’s Proposition 8 passed by 52.3 percent to 47.7 percent, and same-sex marriage was once more eliminated.  That yes vote was largely propelled by the Mormon Church, whose members had contributed some $22 million in to this vicious campaign.

The Mormons have been credited with almost single-handedly getting Prop. 8 passed, despite a well-funded opposition with backing from Hollywood.


http://www.care2.com/causes....ia.html

Ummmm, www?

My church STILL supports defining a marriage as a union between a man and a woman.  You falsely conclude that such a position must mean they are "homophobes" who oppose equal civil and employment rights for same-sex partners.  You could not be more wrong.

You also seem to falsely conclude that such a position means that homosexuals are by church definition "sinful", requiring their membership in the church to be withdrawn.  You could not be more wrong about that as well.
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