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Topic: Syria Intervention, WTF< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 9:02 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It sounds inevitable we, US of A are going to intervene into the Syrian conflict, WHY?  Didn't we learn our lesson yet?  I see no strategic reason for this at all.

Why do you folks think we are going to intervene?

Man, maybe I will start a defense company to get some lucrative contracts....
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 9:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is the problem with drawing "red lines". Do we even know WHO fired the chemical mortars?

I also wonder how receptive the Russians will be?

ETA - It WOULD be interesting if we found that the chemical weapons came from Iraq.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Personally I am glad that the US is taking a stand, not just ignoring and sweeping a very nasty piece of inter-tribal violence under the rug, as has been done a lot of other times.  

But I also understand that this whole event, and the reaction to it, is fraught with danger for the US and for NATO.  Unless we are very careful, and skillful, the result will be a loss of standing in the Middle East, and will serve as motivation for another increase in terrorism against the West.

If there can be clear, scientific identification of the source of the chemical weapons, and evidence of who used them, we will be much closer to a positive outcome, but I am skeptical that such certainty can ever be achieved in this kind of event, so there will be endless "he said, he said"  and crazy conspiracy theories that gain credibility over time.

And we might trigger a wider civil war between the sects of Islam, to the great harm of everyone in the region.

What a world!


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 12:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As far as why "we" are getting involved, that answer is "Because we can".  We're one of the few countries in the world with the military might to intervene.  Most others who would don't have the capability.

If you look at the underlying "why", Syria is the mechanism Iran uses to project it's military presence in the area.  If they loose Syria, Iran is pretty much all by themselves.....of course they still have the Russians...

It has nothing at all do with weapons of mass destruction, or genocide, or human rights.  Trust me.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 12:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sarin "leaking out" into common usage would be a very bad thing: look what's happened with IEDs and car bombs, so nipping that horror early is a prudent thing to do.

There's obviously no eagerness on the part of this administration to intervene: there's a hundred thousand dead Syrians to testify to that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 1:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I say we should not intervene at all.  I will ask the same question I did when Bush was leading the Iraq parade, what is the exit strategy?  As far as I have seen, we did not have a sound exit strategy.  Are we going to help rebuild the country? (that worked in Iraq alright...)

So, we lob a few missiles in, will that help keep Sarin out of "bad" peoples hands?  Should we put boots on the ground?  I say no to both.  No American deaths please!!  Can even imagine if this was Bush pushing for another American presence into a war?  

We have so many issues here at home that we have no need and my opinion, no RIGHT to step foot in this conflict/civil war.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 1:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think it is much more analogous to Kosovo than to Iraq.

Obama is striving to define a clear, limited military strategy, and is being very careful to have real international support for any action that is taken, but given the reality that it will be mostly the US taking action.  We are the only ones with the cruise missle capability and with B-2 bombers than can avoid all Syrian defence measures.

We may never take any direct action, but at least the Middle Eastern dictators know that their actions create a very dangerous situation that they may want to avoid.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 2:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As a general principle, I think there should be a clear-cut set of guidelines in international law with UN authority for military intervention to avert a humanitarian catastrophe.

Mass murder of civilian populations and/or suffering on a large scale during a protracted civil war with no end in sight are circumstances that might warrant intervention. In a modern civilized world there is a point at which doing nothing is morally unacceptable.

Any action must have widespread international support, and the goals of the intervention must be transparantly humanitarian. The goals must be clearly defined, with a realistic plan for success.

The situation in Syria is indeed a humanitarian catastrophe, and not just because of chemical weapons. However, international supportis lacking and nothing approaching a realistic plan for success has been articulated.

Under these circumstances I oppose US military intervention, short of a clear-cut case of self-defense. It would be very difficult to make that case; such intervention would more likely result in unintended consequences much more detrimental to US national security.

Diplomacy is called for; not with the warring factions, but with countries in the region and with interested powers like Russia. Any action needs to go through the UN which, like it or not, is the venue for matters of international law. The focus has to be on humanitarian intervention, not the national self interests of the major powers.

Trust is sorely lacking, so any action that is not transparently humanitarian will not have the required international support. I'm very skeptical this can be achieved. The 2003 invasion of Iraq and the fiasco that followed was a huge step backwards from the kind of consensus-building that is needed here.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 2:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Any action needs to go through the UN which, like it or not, is the venue for matters of international law.

As so often in past crisis situtations it would seem that UN support is impossible to have in Syria.

But, the UN is not the only international organization with worldwide credibility.  We already have the largely successful example of Kosavo, where UN support could not be marshalled, but NATO support was sufficient.

Allowing the Russian veto to stop all humanitarian action is not acceptable, IMO.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 2:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Unfortunately with locals on both sides adding ever more money and arms to the cauldron I don't see any consensus emerging on an end to the Syrian conflict.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 3:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Back when we went into Iraq I advocated a scorched earth policy.  I don't believe in "limited engagement".  You either turn the sand to glass or you stay home.

We don't need to borrow money to police these people.  Let them kill each other.  Fewer of them to deal with in the future.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 3:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 27 2013, 1:16 pm)
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Any action needs to go through the UN which, like it or not, is the venue for matters of international law.

As so often in past crisis situtations it would seem that UN support is impossible to have in Syria.

But, the UN is not the only international organization with worldwide credibility.  We already have the largely successful example of Kosavo, where UN support could not be marshalled, but NATO support was sufficient.

Allowing the Russian veto to stop all humanitarian action is not acceptable, IMO.

NATO action was more geographically appropriate in Kosovo, which is on Europe's doorstep. The Middle East is a different matter, and much more volatile.

I agree that veto power among the permanent UN Security members can render that institution impotent. It's an inherent flaw that may have been necessary to win support from the major powers.

That's why diplomacy is necessary. The case has to be made that humanitarian intervention is necessary and can succeed. If the case is made strongly and transparently enough, obstruction by Russia could come with a price.

At the very least, the ongoing tragedy in Syria can provide an opportunity to discuss the principles involved in UN humanitarian intervention. Instead, what we're getting is self-serving posturing and rhetoric. If military action is taken, the motives will be viewed in that context.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 3:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:14 pm)
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Back when we went into Iraq I advocated a scorched earth policy.  I don't believe in "limited engagement".  You either turn the sand to glass or you stay home.

We don't need to borrow money to police these people.  Let them kill each other.  Fewer of them to deal with in the future.

Who would Jesus turn to glass?

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 3:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Obama morphing into Bush...  Tragic.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 4:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Aug. 27 2013, 3:18 pm)
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(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:14 pm)
QUOTE
Back when we went into Iraq I advocated a scorched earth policy.  I don't believe in "limited engagement".  You either turn the sand to glass or you stay home.

We don't need to borrow money to police these people.  Let them kill each other.  Fewer of them to deal with in the future.

Who would Jesus turn to glass?

You must have missed my "excommunication" post.

I don't care what Jesus would do.  I am an advocate of berserker warfare.  No quarter, no police actions, if you're gonna suit up, clear the field.

I don't want to understand the enemy.  I want the enemy gone.

We keep losing over and over by restraining ourselves.  If we did that individually, in a mugging, we'd be hospitalized or dead.

So, screw it.  Go berserker or stay home.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 4:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:57 pm)
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Utter BS.

The Bush neocons were hot to invade Iraq before GW took office, and concocted a false marketing campaign to sell the war as national self defense.

No such predetermined agenda is at work regarding Syria today. This preisdent is obviously quite reluctant to follow in those footsteps.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 4:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 3:12 pm)
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I don't want to understand the enemy.  I want the enemy gone.

We keep losing over and over by restraining ourselves.  If we did that individually, in a mugging, we'd be hospitalized or dead.

So, screw it.  Go berserker or stay home.

You advocate willful ignorance. Understanding your enemy is a key to defeating the enemy and attaining the objective, whatever it is. Perhaps more importantly, you might find out you've been told someone is your enemy when they really aren't.

At least your last two words make sense.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Scorched earth works, DW.

That's how we finished WWII.  That's why it has lasted.  This pansy attitude we have now will only lead to another scorched earth solution.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not really a fan of intervention as there are no good choices in this civil war (Iran backed Syria vs the rebels with AQ links).  Then again we do not any of these factions to get overly comfy using chemical (or biological) weapons.  Tough call. I'll be moving to my Rocky Mountain bunker with the complete series of Baywatch.  Tell me how it ends.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, Obama may use the JimmyC answer >>>> Push The Buttons.

What you libbies got to say now???????


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(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:37 pm)
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Scorched earth works, DW.

That's how we finished WWII.  That's why it has lasted.  This pansy attitude we have now will only lead to another scorched earth solution.

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 3:37 pm)
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Scorched earth works, DW.

That's how we finished WWII.  That's why it has lasted.  This pansy attitude we have now will only lead to another scorched earth solution.

You are mistaken if you think I advocate the kind of military interventions we've conducted over the last 50 years. Vietnam, Afghanistan, & Iraq II are prime examples of what not to do. The "Powell Doctrine" of the first Gulf War made some sense -- have a clearly defined objective, go in with overwhelming military superiority, and get out -- but we didn't get out. We kept forces in Saudi Arabia and enforced an indefinite and ultimately unsustainable no-fly zone in Iraq.

The problem is we've been fighting wars we never should have, without a realistic plan to achieve whatever the objective was.

The 2003 invasion of Iraq was named Operation Iraqi Freedom, which suggests an objective of freeing oppressed people from a murderous dictator. How does "scorched earth" (nuking cities, killing millions of civilians) achieve that objective? If you have to destroy the village to save it, you have failed and shouldn't have gone there in the first place. (of course, the real reasons for invading Iraq in 2003 had practically zilch to do with helping Iraqis)

The current justification for intervening in Syria is to rescue civilians from attacks by chemical weapons. If we slaughter hundreds of thousands of civilians in areas controlled by the Assad regime, we have perverted the concept that is the basis of that objective.

The point here is, those people are not our enemy.

If you totally reject the concept of intervention for humanitarian reasons, that's understandable, though I think something like genocide requires international action.

If you can only entertain the notion of scorched earth or stay home, then stay home until there is a clear-cut case for national self defense.

We haven't seen that since WW II.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:06 pm)
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So, Obama may use the JimmyC answer >>>> Push The Buttons.

What you libbies got to say now???????

I say you must have been excommunicated along with TDale and have quite openly rejected Jesus, the Prince of Peace.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Aug. 27 2013, 5:07 pm)
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(TDale @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:37 pm)
QUOTE
Scorched earth works, DW.

That's how we finished WWII.  That's why it has lasted.  This pansy attitude we have now will only lead to another scorched earth solution.

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Sherman should have finished the job? I'm amused with the thought of visiting the glassy plains of Texas.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Aug. 27 2013, 1:25 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:57 pm)
QUOTE

Utter BS.

The Bush neocons were hot to invade Iraq before GW took office, and concocted a false marketing campaign to sell the war as national self defense.

No such predetermined agenda is at work regarding Syria today. This preisdent is obviously quite reluctant to follow in those footsteps.

Not that we really know.... but I do not think it is BS at all.

While I believe that Obama is not the trigger-happy type -- I also believe W wasn't much interested in Iraq either -- not in 2000 or early 2001.

Both parties are near beholden to our vast military-defense complex.  And I believe our political leadership faces tremendous pressure to keep its hand off the trigger -- as the aforementioned complex, lobbyists, think tanks, THE MEDIA, etc., etc. vie to keep expanding / building their resources and their power -- and there are all kinds of 'justifications' and 'red lines' to draw -- the lack of exit strategies and consequences both be damned.  After all, they all "need" to report ROI growth each and every quarter -- and how else to keep making / selling armaments to an already cash-strapped government??  Have the media and government fan up emotions -- fear, pity, whatever!

In stark contrast, all these years that Congo (ex. Zaire) has been warring and killing and raping and making soldiers out of kidnapped children -- hardly a peep from our defense industries. Just not that interesting or profitable over there.  Certainly nothing like the Middle East.

So, again, if you really think this alleged use of chemical weapons warrant another all-out invasion -- welcome back to 2003.  We collectively haven't learned anything.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:35 pm)
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I also believe W wasn't much interested in Iraq either -- not in 2000 or early 2001.

Then you are extermely poorly informed.

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(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:35 pm)
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So, again, if you really think this alleged use of chemical weapons warrant another all-out invasion -- welcome back to 2003.  We collectively haven't learned anything.

I don't remotely think any such thing, and I'll bet Obama has no intention of an "all-out invasion" of Syria.

It is apparent that you are clueless.

I know it's impolite to say that, but an obvious conclusion based on what you've written.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:39 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:35 pm)
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I also believe W wasn't much interested in Iraq either -- not in 2000 or early 2001.

Then you are extermely poorly informed.

Actually, you are the one who is extremely uninformed.  Bush was much more focused on domestic affairs -- noticeably 'inactive' with issues relating to the Middle East.  9/11 changed everything for Bush.  Look it up.

Here's a section of reading material I found rather quickly -- excerpts from W:


"I changed my mind on need for Afghan nation-building

When I ran for president, I never anticipated a mission like [nation-building in Afghanistan]. In the fall of 2000, Al Gore and I debated the most pressing issues facing America. Not once did the words Afghanistan, bin Laden, or al Qaeda come up. We did discuss nation building. "The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops, " I said in the first debate. "I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders."

At the time, I worried about overextending our military by undertaking peacekeeping missions as we had in Bosnia and Somalia. But after 9/11, I changed my mind. Afghanistan was the ultimate nation building mission. We had liberated the country from a primitive dictatorship, and we had a moral obligation to leave behind something better. We also had a strategic interest in helping the Afghan people build a free society.

Source: Decision Points, by Pres. George W. Bush, p.205 , Nov 9, 2010"


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:45 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:35 pm)
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So, again, if you really think this alleged use of chemical weapons warrant another all-out invasion -- welcome back to 2003.  We collectively haven't learned anything.

I don't remotely think any such thing, and I'll bet Obama has no intention of an "all-out invasion" of Syria.

It is apparent that you are clueless.

I know it's impolite to say that, but an obvious conclusion based on what you've written.

In my view -- shooting missiles at another sovereign nation is pretty "all out"  I realize you may see it differently -- as in "all out" meaning the inclusion of putting boots on the field.

Does not change my stance above -- that Obama has taken on shades of Bush.  If Obama starts shooting... we will be stuck with 'nation building' all over again.  Tragic.  And not just for us.


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The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page.  -- St. Augustine
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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 27 2013, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:45 pm)
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(Drift Woody @ Aug. 27 2013, 2:39 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Aug. 27 2013, 4:35 pm)
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I also believe W wasn't much interested in Iraq either -- not in 2000 or early 2001.

Then you are extermely poorly informed.

Actually, you are the one who is extremely uninformed....

Source: Decision Points, by Pres. George W. Bush, p.205 , Nov 9, 2010"

After the hundreds of documented false statements on Iraq by GW Bush, your source is GW Bush?

As KenV would say: Fascinating.

I'll try to find time later tonight or tomorrow to inform you, but I'm out for a few hours this evening.


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