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Topic: Why Do Some Republicans Want Us to Attack Syria?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:47 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thinking about it...  the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq pretty much cost the Republicans the presidency.

And nowadays, the economy is clearly looking up... troops are gone from Iraq and soon from Afghanistan too.

The Republicans are on the defensive on almost all fronts.

Syria -- like Iraq -- has a brutal, corrupt and dictatorial leader.  Also like Iraq, the Syrian opposition is fragmented -- and its society has its share of social, tribal and sectarian differences.

IF the Republicans can fire up the emotions of the American people to help the underdog and goad the president into military action -- where surgical strikes might ultimately lead to a regime change and then nation building -- AND the potential quagmire that just might follow.....  might this do to the Democrats what Iraq and Afghanistan did to the GOP?

As for Obama -- might he be hearing too much the siren song of becoming the president  to free the Syrians from decades of secular, but autocratic rule -- and much more importantly -- pull off a Middle East transformation encompassing Syria, Egypt and very possibly others as well?

Lots of "if's" to be sure -- but there's just not a whole lot that can make the Democrats vulnerable between now and 2016!?!


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That way they get to impeach Obama?
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:51 pm)
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That way they get to impeach Obama?

Obama and the Democrats are much more popular than the GOP.  Impeach might be overreach.  But what about "helping" the president start this war -- and then at the second or third signs of complications -- to do a lot of Monday quarterback criticisms -- and maybe see our economy flat line again -- and arouse the angst of the American people?


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is a good post to polarize an already polarized nation.  Not that this post will have a bearing on that, but its this kind of attitude that does just that.  Shouldn't we be more concerned about the innocent folks being butchered by their government?

In my opinion, it is this type of posturing that is pervasive and harmful.  We should stick to the facts and issues and work to resolve.  Please view the situation at face value.

This is not meant to be a personal attack, but there are more serious things involved here than political gain.  I can only hope (however naively) that our leaders view this in the same light.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GlenG @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:54 pm)
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This is a good post to polarize an already polarized nation.  Not that this post will have a bearing on that, but its this kind of attitude that does just that.  Shouldn't we be more concerned about the innocent folks being butchered by their government?

In my opinion, it is this type of posturing that is pervasive and harmful.  We should stick to the facts and issues and work to resolve.  Please view the situation at face value.

This is not meant to be a personal attack, but there are more serious things involved here than political gain.  I can only hope (however naively) that our leaders view this in the same light.

Not saying who's right or wrong... but I do not share your altruistic view of our government's foreign policies.  My view, helping the poor Syrians is not so different from W's helping the poor Iraqis.  There are many other factors at play -- many of which are absent in places like Congo -- and thus, not coincidentally at all -- few if any in our political leadership give even lip service to helping the poor Congolese!


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wait a minute....the way I'm see it...Obama hasn't invoked the war powers act....the UN is also saying wait.

If Syria is attacked in the next few days you can't blame the Republicans.... This one is all Obama.....


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:53 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:51 pm)
QUOTE
That way they get to impeach Obama?

Impeach might be overreach.  But what about "helping" the president start this war -- and then at the second or third signs of complications -- to do a lot of Monday quarterback criticisms -- and maybe see our economy flat line again -- and arouse the angst of the American people?

Well they're setting the foundation by throwing about "unconstitutional"
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:53 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:51 pm)
QUOTE
That way they get to impeach Obama?

Impeach might be overreach.  But what about "helping" the president start this war -- and then at the second or third signs of complications -- to do a lot of Monday quarterback criticisms -- and maybe see our economy flat line again -- and arouse the angst of the American people?

Well they're setting the foundation by throwing about "unconstitutional" on the other hand from the war mongering: Obama's Syria Finding Lauded by GOP Hawks

Cake and eat it too?

Sure.  Chance of success?  Not zero, but methinks chance of this escalating is far greater.  And when that happens, those GOP hawks will also be the first to pile onto Obama for "losing" the Middle East...


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:58 pm)
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Wait a minute....the way I'm see it...Obama hasn't invoked the war powers act....the UN is also saying wait.

If Syria is attacked in the next few days you can't blame the Republicans.... This one is all Obama.....

President's never invoke the War Powers Act: they ignore it while slightly following it's notification requirements... with an added note specifically saying the notification has nothing to do with the Act.

One of those Executive versus Congress power wrestles.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(gunslinger @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:58 pm)
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If Syria is attacked in the next few days you can't blame the Republicans.... This one is all Obama.....

Yep.  All the GOP needs to do are:

1.  Hope for a fail (fair to good chance), then pile onto Obama.
2.  Choose a truly moderate candidate for 2016.

And win the election.  Well, the way things look today, there just isn't a whole lot else that can hand the Democrats a defeat.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 6:03 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:53 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:51 pm)
QUOTE
That way they get to impeach Obama?

Impeach might be overreach.  But what about "helping" the president start this war -- and then at the second or third signs of complications -- to do a lot of Monday quarterback criticisms -- and maybe see our economy flat line again -- and arouse the angst of the American people?

Well they're setting the foundation by throwing about "unconstitutional" on the other hand from the war mongering: Obama's Syria Finding Lauded by GOP Hawks

Cake and eat it too?

Sure.  Chance of success?  Not zero, but methinks chance of this escalating is far greater.  And when that happens, those GOP hawks will also be the first to pile onto Obama for "losing" the Middle East...

I just don't see any significant chance for escalation*. Throwing about ordinance isn't nearly as slippery a slope as ground troops for the very fact cruise missiles etc. don't offer the hawks any opportunity to exploit "the sacrifice of our fallen troops" since there are no troops in the theater to fall. Unlike the spiral of death that underlay so much of Iraq, as if piling MORE American dead up was going to make it any less of a fiasco. Ditto Vietnam.

* Now Syria reaches out successfully and sinks one of those destroyers? That would get terrible very fast.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben,
I'm not that far out there to think that our government is altruistic at all.  OK well, maybe they are a little.  I was merely saying that more of that would be a good thing.  If they were all that concerned, we would be addressing some more of the out of the way atrocities, rather than the more noticeable, trendy ones.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

GlenG- A large part of the challenge of the out of the way atrocities that come to mind is how entirely decentralized they are. There's no "point of attack" in Congo for instance, or was in Rwanda or still is in Somalia.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

HSF, good point, that requires boots on the ground, and a really committed, long haul approach.  Back to playing policeman for the rest of the world.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 6:11 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 6:03 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:53 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 5:51 pm)
QUOTE
That way they get to impeach Obama?

Impeach might be overreach.  But what about "helping" the president start this war -- and then at the second or third signs of complications -- to do a lot of Monday quarterback criticisms -- and maybe see our economy flat line again -- and arouse the angst of the American people?

Well they're setting the foundation by throwing about "unconstitutional" on the other hand from the war mongering: Obama's Syria Finding Lauded by GOP Hawks

Cake and eat it too?

Sure.  Chance of success?  Not zero, but methinks chance of this escalating is far greater.  And when that happens, those GOP hawks will also be the first to pile onto Obama for "losing" the Middle East...

I just don't see any significant chance for escalation*. Throwing about ordinance isn't nearly as slippery a slope as ground troops for the very fact cruise missiles etc. don't offer the hawks any opportunity to exploit "the sacrifice of our fallen troops" since there are no troops in the theater to fall. Unlike the spiral of death that underlay so much of Iraq, as if piling MORE American dead up was going to make it any less of a fiasco. Ditto Vietnam.

* Now Syria reaches out successfully and sinks one of those destroyers? That would get terrible very fast.

Who really knows?

Clinton shot missiles at Gaddafi and it didn't escalate and the man quieted down for years after that.  But then, Gaddafi was also firmly in control back then.

But in Syria, we have a red hot civil war going on.  Lobbing missiles at Syria will, of course, embolden the rebels.  But there is no united front or even united ideology among the disparate rebel faction groups!  What if the stalement continues, but at an even bloodier level?  Or worse, what if the emboldened rebels turn on each other -- now that the prize is within grasp?  There is certainly the potential  that we might get sucked in... our little regime change bringing out the need for an entire nation building...  Do we really want that?

The GOP hawks do, since they see that as the way to remold the entire Middle East.  And why not leverage Obama to do their work -- and blame him for any failure too?


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 9:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Aug. 28 2013, 6:15 pm)
QUOTE
GlenG- A large part of the challenge of the out of the way atrocities that come to mind is how entirely decentralized they are. There's no "point of attack" in Congo for instance, or was in Rwanda or still is in Somalia.

Adding to my post above, lobbing a few at Bashar might just weaken him enough... so that there will also be no 'central' in Syria either.  And then?  If that civil war escalates and wannabe presidents start fighting among themselves and make life even more miserable...  have we identified our 'champion' among the rebels -- one who is committed to democracy, human rights, and rule of law that we can support?  Right now, the answer seems to be 'no'.

In Afghanistan, Karzai's rule seems tenuous.  It may yet turn into another Congo of warring factions.  And striking at Syria may just create yet more Congo's...


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 10:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 7:47 pm)
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Thinking about it...  the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq pretty much cost the Republicans the presidency.

And nowadays, the economy is clearly looking up... troops are gone from Iraq and soon from Afghanistan too.

The Republicans are on the defensive on almost all fronts.

Syria -- like Iraq -- has a brutal, corrupt and dictatorial leader.  Also like Iraq, the Syrian opposition is fragmented -- and its society has its share of social, tribal and sectarian differences.

IF the Republicans can fire up the emotions of the American people to help the underdog and goad the president into military action -- where surgical strikes might ultimately lead to a regime change and then nation building -- AND the potential quagmire that just might follow.....  might this do to the Democrats what Iraq and Afghanistan did to the GOP?

As for Obama -- might he be hearing too much the siren song of becoming the president  to free the Syrians from decades of secular, but autocratic rule -- and much more importantly -- pull off a Middle East transformation encompassing Syria, Egypt and very possibly others as well?

Lots of "if's" to be sure -- but there's just not a whole lot that can make the Democrats vulnerable between now and 2016!?!

A lot of "if's" is all that you have, along with speculation on things it's quite apparent you know very little about.

You're trying to morph Obama/Syria into Bush/Iraq in a roundabout way, after having failed miserably in your attempt in the other thread.

The Republicans can't "goad" the president into taking military action against his own judgment, and it's preposterous to think the emotions of the American people can be "fired up" over what's happening in Syria. There is not and will not be widespread public support for a major military adventure in Syria.

You are trying to project neoconservative ambitions/delusions of transforming the Middle East onto Obama, suggesting Syria will turn into an American "quagmire" and "nation building" fiasco ala Afghanistan & Iraq. In the other thread you tried to redefine an "all-out invasion" as something other than boots on the ground, and now you'll have to redfine a nation building quagmire as something other than boots on the ground. Unless, of course, you've now decided that's what's in the works for Syria. Makes sense if you believe Obama has bought into the neocon delusions of the previous administration and learned nothing from that disaster, which of course makes no sense at all.

You really should stop posting such sophomoric claptrap. It only makes you look foolish.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 11:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This may be a long shot, but maybe this is the keystone to a quietly evolving plan for the Mideast? Maybe we have very good intel, thanks to actual allies right next door and all of the electronic surveillance. Say the cruise missiles, and precision bombing takes out some truly heinous weapons of mass destruction, erodes Assad's ability to make war on his own country, and likewise takes out a rebel weapons stash or command center that belongs to Hamas or Al Qaeda. Hurt the combatants just right and they might have to actually negotiate some kind of a settlement, bringing international respect to the US and stability to the region.

Hey, my fantasy is better then any the Republicans have had for a few years.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 28 2013, 11:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+100!!

I was reading this thread, and you, DW, nailed - virtually to the very words - what I was thinking: "iffy thinking", "preposterous assumptions", "pure speculation". It seems that there is an attempt in virtually all this jibber-jabber of late to "conflate and confuse" actions by this particular government into something close enough to its predecessor that it can be used for attack. I believe that - and I say that as someone who is absolutely not interested in "another Iraq" or "another Vietnam".

I have seen a few news programs on this, I've read a few articles here and there and I watched Obama in an interview this very day. There is absolutely no posturing, no attempt whatsoever at "building a consensus for war" or any of that Bush 43 claptrap we all saw before Iraq. Obama isn't rattling any sabers, and he's seemingly not rushing to judgment. I suspect he is evaluating the situation thoroughly, and the response will be, if it comes, measured and well thought out. I certainly hope so.

I was listening to Wesley Clark being interviewed on NPR yesterday. I strongly respect Clark's opinion. He was laboring a bit to make it clear that there are no conspicuous parallels between the situation in Syria and those "other wars", including Kosovo, though the interviewer was attempting to make them. His opinion was that, short of removing the chemical weapons via strikes or negotiations (not likely, given the situation), what he expected was, in the event that Assad did not comply with demands to relinquish the weapons or cease in using them, a strike to "punish" by taking a valuable military asset. Given the serious nature of the attack by the Syrians, it seems that is where we are headed. All the talk about "nation building" and "regime change" seems over-the-top to me.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 29 2013, 12:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gotta get those new tanks that the army doesnt want!

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 29 2013, 1:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

1.  Hope for a fail (fair to good chance), then pile onto Obama.
2.  Choose a truly moderate candidate for 2016.


The first part is easy, you can depend on the Party of NO to pile on Obama at every opportunity, or even imagined opportunity.

The second part, not so much.  The possibility of a middle of the road Republican being nominated is less than zero.  They continue to move steadily to the right, and to steadily take actions that alienate women, minorities, young students and working Americans.

Even if they have some success in smearing Obama, that won't solve their internal philosophical problems, and will not provide them with a viable middle of the road candidate.  And it won't retard the Democrats from running another right of center candidate like Hillary, or some other clone, and winning in 2016.

Back to the drawing board.

Obama will not be drawn into some boots on the ground conflict, and Syria will not be much an issue in 2016 campaigning.  No matter how hard GOP pundits try to make it so.

National elections are mostly decided on domestic issues, not on foreign policy issues.  You could look it up.


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 29 2013, 6:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 28 2013, 9:27 pm)
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Clinton shot missiles at Gaddafi and it didn't escalate and the man quieted down for years after that.  But then, Gaddafi was also firmly in control back then.

Minor clarification...

Reagan ordered the attack on Libya.

Clinton ordered the Tomahawk attacks on AQ "training camps" after the attack on the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.


(Ok, back out of TPA for me)


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 29 2013, 4:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Aug. 28 2013, 10:24 pm)
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Obama will not be drawn into some boots on the ground conflict, and Syria will not be much an issue in 2016 campaigning.  No matter how hard GOP pundits try to make it so.

No, not directly.  But just to get the ball rolling -- and sometimes these things take on a life of their own!  Not saying it will happen, of course, but let's not discount probability.  Vietnam started off with just a few advisers...


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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 29 2013, 4:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Aug. 28 2013, 8:44 pm)
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I was listening to Wesley Clark being interviewed on NPR yesterday. I strongly respect Clark's opinion. He was laboring a bit to make it clear that there are no conspicuous parallels between the situation in Syria and those "other wars", including Kosovo, though the interviewer was attempting to make them.

Recall a decade ago, just how strenuously our political and military leadership labored to make it clear to the American people that Iraq was no Vietnam!

Can anyone say that a surgical strike against Syria will automatically morph into another decade-long war?  Of course not.  But then, can we completely discount the situation where -- again -- we seem to be getting into a fight with no clear goals?

What exactly is Obama aiming for?  It can't just be punishing Bashar (however much the man deserves) and stopping there -- Obama must anticipate and plan for the myriad of potential  consequences!  Has he?

If we have identified a rebel leader who has the vision, the leadership, the support and respect of the Syrians -- then sure, Syria might just be ready to see off Bashar, and we can sure give a helping hand (preferably with a UN mandate).  But who is this champion?  Does he even exist presently?


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(Drift Woody @ Aug. 28 2013, 7:57 pm)
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You're trying to morph Obama/Syria into Bush/Iraq in a roundabout way, after having failed miserably in your attempt in the other thread.

Failed?  Pros and cons are both numerous on that other thread.  Be careful about selective filtering -- this, of course, applying to us all.

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WalksWithBlackflies Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 30 2013, 8:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To the OP: because some Republicans get raging hard-ons at the thought of using military might to suppress others? I wouldn't be surprised if McCain drops a load every time a cruise missile is launched.

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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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KenV Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 30 2013, 9:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Aug. 30 2013, 8:36 am)
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To the OP: because some Republicans get raging hard-ons at the thought of using military might to suppress others? I wouldn't be surprised if McCain drops a load every time a cruise missile is launched.

Hmmmmm.

Of all the folks in both branches of government, McCain is one of the very few who has actually been at the very pointy end of the spear and knows from personal experience the high personal cost of being there.  The last sentence appears to be the clueless ramblings of the profoundly clueless.
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double cabin Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 30 2013, 10:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Aug. 30 2013, 9:50 am)
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(WalksWithBlackflies @ Aug. 30 2013, 8:36 am)
QUOTE
To the OP: because some Republicans get raging hard-ons at the thought of using military might to suppress others? I wouldn't be surprised if McCain drops a load every time a cruise missile is launched.

Hmmmmm.

Of all the folks in both branches of government, McCain is one of the very few who has actually been at the very pointy end of the spear and knows from personal experience the high personal cost of being there.  The last sentence appears to be the clueless ramblings of the profoundly clueless.

Bull!@#$. McCain wanted to attack Iran and elements along the "Iraqi-Afghanistan Border." Because of this The Economist projected a McCain Presidency would have accumulated far more debt that an Obama one.

Service, however noblely perceived, does not always equate to a healthy perspective. And as was noted before however big a sacrifice McCain made it was by no means a qualifcation for the Presidency as Bush 43's campaign asserted so effectively in 2000.


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Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 30 2013, 10:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Aug. 29 2013, 3:31 pm)
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Recall a decade ago, just how strenuously our political and military leadership labored to make it clear to the American people that Iraq was no Vietnam!

The political leadership was the administration of GW Bush, and they rejected military leadership that tried to inform them of what would be involved with an occupation of Iraq. General Shinseki was our foremost military expert in these matters, and he was retired after he warned that well over a hundred thousand troops would be necessary post-invasion.

You continue to juxtapose the previous administration onto this one, even after having to admit a mea cupla about not knowing that GW was hot to invade Iraq from Day One.

You blur the lines and distinctions to such an extent that you have no clear view of the past or the present, rendering your observations and speculations of no value.


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We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
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PostIcon Posted on: Aug. 30 2013, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Obama won't be drawing too many more red lines in the sand.  He ran his mouth over and over again about Bush and now there's a good chance he's going into Syria without any allies.  How things change when your sitting in the Oval Office.  This has nothing to do with republicans, this is on the president!
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