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Topic: Can We Restore The Pledge Of Allegiance, To It's Original Form?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 1:09 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013....ebmail1

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 1:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

CAN it be done?  Almost certainly.

SHOULD it be done?  Less likely.

WILL it be done?  Even less likely.

Does it matter either way?  Almost certainly not.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 5:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sometimes, I wonder if too much have been placed on all these outward signs of pride and patriotism!  Signs and symbols have their place, but frequent, coerced observances can often reduce them to near-meaningless, robotic exercises.

I'd rather we just respect each other, lend a helping hand whenever needed, obey the law, and pay our taxes.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 7:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 05 2013, 12:58 am)
QUOTE
CAN it be done?  Almost certainly.

SHOULD it be done?  Less likely.

WILL it be done?  Even less likely.

Does it matter either way?  Almost certainly not.

Well, lots of people (both opponents and proponents) think it does matter.

It's not high on my personal list of causes, but I hate the forced recitation of the pledge by school children, whether or not it includes the "under God" line. (And let's be honest, it is forced--what 9-year-old is going to opt out?)

That kind of mandatory display of patriotism makes my skin crawl.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 8:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I refused to cite the pledge in school in the late 60s/early 70s because of 2 reasons.
1st was the "under God" term which had nothing to do with patriotism.
2nd was because it was mandatory. Patriotism cannot be mandated because it then ceases to be patriotism.
The school authorities finally got it through their heads that trying to send me to detention wasn't going to work since I refused to go for that particular "offense".


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 8:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 05 2013, 8:17 am)
QUOTE
I refused to cite the pledge in school in the late 60s/early 70s because of 2 reasons.
1st was the "under God" term which had nothing to do with patriotism.
2nd was because it was mandatory. Patriotism cannot be mandated because it then ceases to be patriotism.
The school authorities finally got it through their heads that trying to send me to detention wasn't going to work since I refused to go for that particular "offense".

Good for you.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 9:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since the case cited requires us to believe that the mere existence of the POA discriminates against atheists....I would say they have no case

Atheists are free to insert their name when saying (or not saying ) the POA....since they basically worship themselves!


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 10:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Sep. 05 2013, 7:47 am)
QUOTE
Since the case cited requires us to believe that the mere existence of the POA discriminates against atheists....I would say they have no case

Atheists are free to insert their name when saying (or not saying ) the POA....since they basically worship themselves!

That post made me chuckle.  Thanks for that.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 5:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Sep. 05 2013, 1:09 am)
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Why do you want it changed?

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 5:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Sep. 05 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(double cabin @ Sep. 05 2013, 1:09 am)
QUOTE

Why do you want it changed?

"Under  God" was not in the original.

QUOTE
Louis A. Bowman, an attorney from Illinois, was the first to initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge. The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea.[14][15] He spent his adult life in the Chicago area and was Chaplain of the Illinois Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. At a meeting on February 12, 1948,[14] Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God."


QUOTE
In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.


QUOTE
President Eisenhower had been baptized a Presbyterian very recently, just a year before. He responded enthusiastically to Docherty in a conversation following the service. Eisenhower acted on his suggestion the next day and on February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. Congress passed the necessary legislation and Eisenhower signed the bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954.[18] Eisenhower stated "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.... In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource, in peace or in war."


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Fixing it is impossible..do away with it.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 5:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 05 2013, 5:41 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Sep. 05 2013, 3:28 pm)
QUOTE

(double cabin @ Sep. 05 2013, 1:09 am)
QUOTE

Why do you want it changed?

"Under  God" was not in the original.

QUOTE
Louis A. Bowman, an attorney from Illinois, was the first to initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge. The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea.[14][15] He spent his adult life in the Chicago area and was Chaplain of the Illinois Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. At a meeting on February 12, 1948,[14] Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God."


QUOTE
In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.


QUOTE
President Eisenhower had been baptized a Presbyterian very recently, just a year before. He responded enthusiastically to Docherty in a conversation following the service. Eisenhower acted on his suggestion the next day and on February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. Congress passed the necessary legislation and Eisenhower signed the bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954.[18] Eisenhower stated "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.... In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource, in peace or in war."

Is that why you want it changed?

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 10:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I want the original.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 05 2013, 11:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"God" has unfortunately been quite divisive in our Nation's relatively short history. It was added to be divisive, to marginalize "Godless" communists not just in the former Soviet Union but also in the American Labor movement.

As pointed out/implied allowing children to opt out facilitates ostracization.

"Under God" wasn't in the orignial and we should honor the original that promoted inclusion, not exclsuion. I respect the hades out of Eisenhower, but IMO he was unequivocally wrong on this one however right he was about the Military In dustrial Establishment.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2013, 3:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I pledge allegiance, to the Earth.
The planet on which my species evolved,
and all the other species that evolved here,
one linked planetary ecosystem, upon which we all depend.
Producers, consumers, predators and detritivores,
competing and cooperating,
until exceptional folly or cosmic circumstances bring an end.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2013, 5:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 05 2013, 7:27 am)
QUOTE
Well, lots of people (both opponents and proponents) think it does matter.

Well, good for them.  I think its largely a pointless daily exercise.

QUOTE
It's not high on my personal list of causes, but I hate the forced recitation of the pledge by school children, whether or not it includes the "under God" line. (And let's be honest, it is forced--what 9-year-old is going to opt out?)
Waaaaay back in the 60s when these things meant a LOT and "opting out" was not yet a legal option, there were 5 kids in my grade school alone who respectfully stood during the pledge but did not participate on religious grounds.  So yeah, grade school kids did "op out" even when that was not an option.  It's much more acceptable now than it was in the past to "opt out".
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2013, 6:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 06 2013, 4:13 am)
QUOTE
Waaaaay back in the 60s when these things meant a LOT and "opting out" was not yet a legal option, there were 5 kids in my grade school alone who respectfully stood during the pledge but did not participate on religious grounds.  So yeah, grade school kids did "op out" even when that was not an option.  It's much more acceptable now than it was in the past to "opt out".

Well, good for them. Now, let's take the next step and have everyone "opt out." Just because not everyone objects doesn't make it a good idea.

Not everyone objected to school prayer, for example, but that practice was discontinued because it's simply not right, and contrary to what is supposed to be one of our core national values.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 06 2013, 11:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There really wasn't an "original" of the pledge.  Just one iteration after the other of politicians ploy to exploit nationalism in America.

It wasn't there for the big bang, ya know!

We have had a lot of jingoism in our history, and most of it has been negative and embarassing.

Makes the stuck up British royalists sound like they they were right in saying  we couldn't recognize REAL nationalism.  LOL


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 3:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 06 2013, 6:49 am)
QUOTE
Not everyone objected to school prayer, for example, but that practice was discontinued because it's simply not right, and contrary to what is supposed to be one of our core national values.

Wait, what?

It's "not right" to pray in school and it's "a core national value" to not pray in school?

Help me out here, I must be missing something.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 5:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 05 2013, 7:54 pm)
QUOTE
I want the original.

Well, "under god" doesn't bother me. It's even true, if we think about the well proven god, Mother Nature.

The one that bothers me is the coins which say "in God we Trust".  Any god who creates a world like this one, I cannot trust at all.

-Don- Reno, NV


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 8:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 07 2013, 3:51 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Sep. 06 2013, 6:49 am)
QUOTE
Not everyone objected to school prayer, for example, but that practice was discontinued because it's simply not right, and contrary to what is supposed to be one of our core national values.

Wait, what?

It's "not right" to pray in school and it's "a core national value" to not pray in school?

Help me out here, I must be missing something.

A lot of people confuse freedom OF religion with freedom FROM religion

Sad....but too true


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 9:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
There really wasn't an "original" of the pledge.  Just one iteration after the other of politicians ploy to exploit nationalism in America.


Actually there was. It was written by a Baptist minister, who left out "under God":
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
The US reference was added a bit later to make it clear to immigrants which flag was being pledged.
The POA was adopted by Congress in 1942 as:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

That original.


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(KenV @ Sep. 07 2013, 2:51 am)
QUOTE
Wait, what?

It's "not right" to pray in school and it's "a core national value" to not pray in school?

Help me out here, I must be missing something.

Yes you are (possibly intentionally).

It's not right to have coercive, organized prayer in schools--it violates a core national value, that people are free to decide for themselves about religious expressions.

Why do we have statutory rape laws? Because the principle is that children are not capable of informed consent: the situation is inherently coercive. It's the same principle: when then adult authority figure says "now children, it's time for us to pray," that is also inherently coercive.

It's not that complicated.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 9:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
It's not right to have coercive, organized prayer in schools--it violates a core national value, that people are free to decide for themselves about religious expressions.

True but...
There used to be prayer in schools and that was banned. Some schools then tried a minute of silence for "personal meditation" to be used as someone wished and that was also banned as being a "religious" minute.

Was that going too far since it was only a minute of non-specific silence?


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(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 07 2013, 9:28 am)
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]Some schools then tried a minute of silence for "personal meditation" to be used as someone wished and that was also banned as being a "religious" minute.

Was that going too far since it was only a minute of non-specific silence?

Many schools still have a moment of silence at the beginning of the day.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 1:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I do not believe in the forced recitation of oaths by schoolchildren in public education.  

Regardless of the oath.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 07 2013, 8:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The POA was adopted by Congress in 1942 as:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


So we managed without it from 1789 to 1942, when a paroxysm of nationalism prompted Congress to adopt a pledge. Go figure.

Amazing idn't it??

Do you think that made up for putting hundreds of thousands of loyal, American, Japanese citizens in concentration camps to protect the national security??


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 08 2013, 1:55 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why are some of y'all scared of God? Even just the word...........scheesh????

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 08 2013, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We're not scared of words Jimmy, we're intolerant of divisive tripe, especially when imposed on children. Opting out only promotes reasons for other young minds to exclude.

Why are you so scared of kids not having to pledge allegiance to a puportedly free country? Are you afraid that parents will actually have to instill values in their own children instead of the convenience of insitutionalized propoganda?


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 08 2013, 3:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Sep. 06 2013, 3:09 am)
QUOTE
I pledge allegiance, to the Earth.
The planet on which my species evolved,
and all the other species that evolved here,
one linked planetary ecosystem, upon which we all depend.
Producers, consumers, predators and detritivores,
competing and cooperating,
until exceptional folly or cosmic circumstances bring an end.

Illuminati pledge?     :;):

Some might argue the "exceptional folly" is by design of the globalist technicrats.   :D


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