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Topic: Buh bye cradle to grave welfare state, A model for the USA?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 17 2013, 11:59 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Netherlands has had a cradle to grave welfare state for generations and been proud of it during all that time.

But reality is finally starting to sink in.  The government has just declared that the traditional 20th century welfare state is unsustainable.  Instead the Netherlands will transition to a "participatory society" with individuals more responsible for (and in control of) their own welfare.

So at a time when the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism, a nation that has been practicing socialism for generations is attempting to move away from it.  I say "attempting" because it is far from certain that the current government will be successful in convincing a populace born and raised in a welfare state from giving it up, even for their own good.

Other changes include moves away from admininstering welfare and unemployment at the national level and more toward local solutions.  This for a tiny country roughly the size of Vermont.  So while the USA seems to be moving more and more toward federal solutions to our welfare problems, a nation where generations have been taken care of by the federal government is moving toward local solutions.

Go figure.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So are the Netherlands switching over to our $1350/month Blue Cross health insurance soon?  
Of course they could pay in Euros if they like.


Oh wait.........do you get free healthcare from your military service?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 2:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hbfa @ Sep. 18 2013, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
So are the Netherlands switching over to our $1350/month Blue Cross health insurance soon?  
Of course they could pay in Euros if they like.


Oh wait.........do you get free healthcare from your military service?

That's a myth.  Retirees get no "free healthcare".  They do get subsidized health insurance (Tricare).  But I still work in the private sector.  The insurance offered by my private employer is FAR superior to Tricare.

I can also get a VA home loan.  But the home loans provided by commercial lenders is actually better than the VA loans.

As for Dutch medicine, when I visit there (I have family there) I get significantly better medical care than the locals.  Why?  My American medical insurance.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 2:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since you are apparently still here, what's your prescription? Stop all reform now? Given the varying coverage of our healthcare system - some here get worse care than they'd get in Eastern Europe (studies show this, I'm not making it up) while others have the best care possible on planet Earth - would you recommend that we in the U.S. make no attempt to make minimal change? Do you think the "Dutch welfare attempt" should be completely dismantled? What do you think?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 2:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Their king declared this, in a symbolic ritual speech written for him by a government trying to sell more austerity measures to a skeptical public.  

But perhaps the people of the Netherlands should heed his advice after all, and cut at least one thing out of their budget:

"The king earns an annual salary of around 825,000 euros ($1.1 million), though maintaining the Royal House — castles, parades and all — costs the government more than 100 million euros annually."   (link)  

QUOTE
So at a time when the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism...

"Socialism: an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels"

We are in fact redistributing wealth to the rich elite at an astonishing rate - despite the fact that even 90% of republicans want income to be distributed even more fairly than in Sweden.  

How have they achieved this?  With hyperbolic fear-mongering bumper-sticker politics, designed to seduce gullible window-lickers such as yourself.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 3:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(orygawn @ Sep. 18 2013, 2:48 am)
QUOTE
Their king declared this, in a symbolic ritual speech written for him by a government trying to sell more austerity measures to a skeptical public.  

But perhaps the people of the Netherlands should heed his advice after all, and cut at least one thing out of their budget:

"The king earns an annual salary of around 825,000 euros ($1.1 million), though maintaining the Royal House — castles, parades and all — costs the government more than 100 million euros annually."   (link)  

QUOTE
So at a time when the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism...

"Socialism: an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels"

We are in fact redistributing wealth to the rich elite at an astonishing rate - despite the fact that even 90% of republicans want income to be distributed even more fairly than in Sweden.  

How have they achieved this?  With hyperbolic fear-mongering bumper-sticker politics, designed to seduce gullible window-lickers such as yourself.

The king is the head of state and gets a salary.  Shocking.

The government spends large sums on the trappings and events attended by the Head of State.  Shocking.

How much does the US government pay for the Executive Mansion (white house) where the president and his family live?  One estimate pegs it at $1.4 billion.

And how much does it coast for a SINGLE event attended by the president?  Just Obama's trip to Africa cost $100 million.

And about that definition of socialism you provided, it included the phrase you clearly thing an economic system "equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity" is a good thing.  All I can so that is WOW.

And "gullible window-licker?"  My, my.  When reason fails, resort to ad hominem.  Good for you!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 3:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Sep. 18 2013, 2:16 am)
QUOTE
Since you are apparently still here, what's your prescription? Stop all reform now? Given the varying coverage of our healthcare system - some here get worse care than they'd get in Eastern Europe (studies show this, I'm not making it up) while others have the best care possible on planet Earth - would you recommend that we in the U.S. make no attempt to make minimal change? Do you think the "Dutch welfare attempt" should be completely dismantled? What do you think?

Stop all reform now?
Nope.

would you recommend that we in the U.S. make no attempt to make minimal change?
I think improvement in health care is not only possible, but demanded and that such improvement can be accomplished without resorting to socialism nor a welfare state.

Do you think the "Dutch welfare attempt" should be completely dismantled?
No, not completely, but almost completely.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 3:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Kenv says
"
The king is the head of state and gets a salary.  Shocking."

^^ classic Kenv strawman

did orygawn say or imply anything that would lead anyone to believe he in fact thought that the king having a salary
in and of itself is a problem? No

Why does Kenv do this kind of sh** over and over again?

Is it really reading comprehension problems?

Or is it a cheap tactic thinking that the rest of the forum members are just so stupid that they will come
to the conclusion that orygawn thought the King having a salary in and of itself(rather than how much the salary
is) was a problem just because Kenv gave that impression despite the fact obviously orygawn said or implied no
such thing?

So when the facts don't go Kenv's way distort what the other persons said


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Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 3:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

cweston said
QUOTE

Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"


Kenv hasn't responded to your question yet and I'm not surprised

after all Kenv isn't good at giving evidence in support of so much of what he says.

He is probably operating on some narrative that he got somewhere.

4 points

1)if you read one of the article it said the King said "For five years we are in an economic crisis,"
and so of course debt is going to increase faster than it normally would before the last 5 years just
like it has in our country before the last 4 years.

2) Netherlands and much of Europe have much more government involvement in the their society as it relates
to safety net programs compared to the US.  Therefore obviously even if Netherlands learned some kind of
lesson about "socialism" that wouldn't be considered much of a valid argument against our country increasing
the amount of government involvement as it relates to safety net programs because very few people(even liberal
Democrats) are advocating the level of government involvement in our society that the Netherlands has.

3) In so far as health care goes, since its a vital component of any safety net, the uS obviously has
far and away the most expensive health care in the world even accounting for differences in size of population
and the economy even though the health care system in the US has far less government intrusion compared to the
health care system's in Europe including the Netherlands (and this will still probably be the case when  
ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare  is fully implements).  Therefore if there is any lesson to be learned from a
country like the Netherlands in  terms of decreasing the level of government involvement, its likely not on the
issue of healthcare.

4) It should also be pointed out that cuts in welfare can be considered under the category of austerity
measures which have gone terribly bad for Europe's economy so far.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 3:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Sep. 18 2013, 3:40 am)
QUOTE
Kenv says
"
The king is the head of state and gets a salary.  Shocking."

^^ classic Kenv strawman

did orygawn say or imply anything that would lead anyone to believe he in fact thought that the king having a salary
in and of itself is a problem? No

Why does Kenv do this kind of sh** over and over again?

Is it really reading comprehension problems?

Or is it a cheap tactic thinking that the rest of the forum members are just so stupid that they will come
to the conclusion that orygawn thought the King having a salary in and of itself(rather than how much the salary
is) was a problem just because Kenv gave that impression despite the fact obviously orygawn said or implied no
such thing?

So when the facts don't go Kenv's way distort what the other persons said

Wow.  dennis, you went for the personal attack from the get-go this time.  No feigning interest in the topic at hand at all, just an immediate personal attack.  What's that say about your character?  And what's that say about your "fascination/obsession" with me?

And BTW, what strawman?  Did I ascribe a position to orygawn at all?   Nope.  You conjured that up in your head.

So not only did you lead with a personal attack, your attack was based on a false premise.  Good for you!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 4:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 17 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE
Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"

He will never answer this question, because he doesn't know the meaning of the word "socialism"

But ignorance never stops a blowhard, unfortunately.  So he will fill 18 pages with obfuscation, misdirection, hackneyed logic, and nitpicking...but he will never answer this question.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 4:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Sep. 18 2013, 3:42 am)
QUOTE
cweston said
QUOTE

Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"


Kenv hasn't responded to your question yet and I'm not surprised

after all Kenv isn't good at giving evidence in support of so much of what he says.

He is probably operating on some narrative that he got somewhere.

4 points

1)if you read one of the article it said the King said "For five years we are in an economic crisis,"
and so of course debt is going to increase faster than it normally would before the last 5 years just
like it has in our country before the last 4 years.

2) Netherlands and much of Europe have much more government involvement in the their society as it relates
to safety net programs compared to the US.  Therefore obviously even if Netherlands learned some kind of
lesson about "socialism" that wouldn't be considered much of a valid argument against our country increasing
the amount of government involvement as it relates to safety net programs because very few people(even liberal
Democrats) are advocating the level of government involvement in our society that the Netherlands has.

3) In so far as health care goes, since its a vital component of any safety net, the uS obviously has
far and away the most expensive health care in the world even accounting for differences in size of population
and the economy even though the health care system in the US has far less government intrusion compared to the
health care system's in Europe including the Netherlands (and this will still probably be the case when  
ObamaRomneyHeritageFoundationCare  is fully implements).  Therefore if there is any lesson to be learned from a
country like the Netherlands in  terms of decreasing the level of government involvement, its likely not on the
issue of healthcare.

4) It should also be pointed out that cuts in welfare can be considered under the category of austerity
measures which have gone terribly bad for Europe's economy so far.

dennis, thanks for your 4 points.

The Dutch government is proposing a fundamental and sweeping shift in both Dutch welfare policy and Dutch health care policy.  You can of course wave the changes off as simple "austerity measures".  But describing a shift from "unsustainable 20th century welfare state" to a "participatory society" as simply "austerity measures" is clearly a totally false characterization of what the Dutch government is proposing.

But hey dennis, you go right ahead and call them whatever you want.  The Dutch people of course see this as much more than simple austerity measures and are reacting accordingly.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 4:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 12:02 am)
QUOTE
Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"

Excellent question!  Don't know if there's a simple answer.  That America is slipping into socialism is certainly a popular talking point/narrative and has been for some time.  The "gut feel" is that we are becoming more socialist, but is there measurable evidence of this?  I'll have to do some digging and get back to you on that.  It may very well be a false premise.
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(KenV @ Sep. 18 2013, 1:15 am)
QUOTE
The Dutch people of course see this as much more than simple austerity measures and are reacting accordingly.

Correct.  

They are withdrawing their support for the government in a very rapid fashion.

"Polling organization TNS-NIPO said Friday that confidence in the government has fallen to 12 percent"  (link)

"A poll published on Sunday said the ruling Liberal-Labour coalition, in power for a year, would lose around half its seats in parliament were elections held now."  (link)

So in desperation they trot out their ceremonial figurehead king to read a scripted statement that by law he must read.  If the next prime minister handed him a speech that said "I believe the proletariat should rise up and crush the bourgeoisie", he would have to sit in that throne looking like a 12 year old and say "I believe the proletariat should rise up and crush the bourgeoisie"

No, the Dutch people are not duped.  They can see clear as day that austerity is not working.  I wish I could say the same about Americans...




(^^^^ Not a head of state.  A vestigial decorative relic ^^^^)
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 7:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 18 2013, 3:27 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 12:02 am)
QUOTE
Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"

Excellent question!  Don't know if there's a simple answer.  That America is slipping into socialism is certainly a popular talking point/narrative and has been for some time.  The "gut feel" is that we are becoming more socialist, but is there measurable evidence of this?  I'll have to do some digging and get back to you on that.  It may very well be a false premise.

Generally speaking, I am a huge fan of the answer "I don't know, but I'll find out." I think it's generally a good and sensible and honorable answer, so I want to be cautious about criticizing a person for giving that answer.

But the charge that "Obama is a socialist" is the primary phrase of derision offered by his political detractors. For five years now, we've been hearing this charge (or, the softer version: the US is moving toward socialism) every single day from folks on the right. It's uttered by every right-wing talking head, in every anti-Obama letter to the editor in every newspaper across the country, and so on.

And yet, when asked if there is evidence of this, there's not a single data point you can throw out there off the top of your head? To me, that speak volumes about the actual truth content of that charge.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 7:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 17 2013, 10:02 pm)
QUOTE
Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"

Obama.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 7:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Perhaps the Netherlands are merely emulating Sweden

http://www.nationalreview.com/article....-currie


If the term "socialism" bothers you then by all means replace it with something more comfortable. Maybe you would be more comfortable calling it something else right up until the point that it qualifies  :)

But what is clear is that more an more people are receiving govt assistance every year

and the only answer the current administration has to pay for it is to take more and more from the productive folks

The greatest growth in full time jobs has been in the public sector....same plan for paying for that

Govt regulation increases year after year towards that point where they will be effectively running every business even if the ownership does not actually transfer

Marx said "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need"

That sounds a LOT like the current plan to pay for our ever expanding entitlement budget

Its OK....generally those that have already been institutionalized are the last ones to realize it


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(BillBab @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:50 am)
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Govt regulation increases year after year towards that point where they will be effectively running every business even if the ownership does not actually transfer

Is this true? I'd like to see the data on that, because I suspect it is not.
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(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:04 am)
QUOTE

(BillBab @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:50 am)
QUOTE
Govt regulation increases year after year towards that point where they will be effectively running every business even if the ownership does not actually transfer

Is this true? I'd like to see the data on that, because I suspect it is not.

The US government actually owns everything in the country and alleged owners of property pay rent to possess that property and conduct business.

Think not? Don't pay the levied taxes and see how long you maintain possession.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 10:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Sep. 17 2013, 11:07 pm)
QUOTE

(hbfa @ Sep. 18 2013, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
So are the Netherlands switching over to our $1350/month Blue Cross health insurance soon?  
Of course they could pay in Euros if they like.


Oh wait.........do you get free healthcare from your military service?

That's a myth.  Retirees get no "free healthcare".  They do get subsidized health insurance (Tricare).  But I still work in the private sector.  The insurance offered by my private employer is FAR superior to Tricare.

My mistake.
But surely you reject this socialist subsidy?  And a military pension perhaps?  Oh, and what was the cost of that education at the Naval Academy?  Glass houses Ken.

FWIW, I appreciate your service to our country and I think you've earned the benefits you've received for that service.  But perhaps you shouldn't throw the socialist moniker around so flippantly when you yourself are benefitting significantly from government subsidies.
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(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 18 2013, 7:12 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:04 am)
QUOTE

(BillBab @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:50 am)
QUOTE
Govt regulation increases year after year towards that point where they will be effectively running every business even if the ownership does not actually transfer

Is this true? I'd like to see the data on that, because I suspect it is not.

The US government actually owns everything in the country and alleged owners of property pay rent to possess that property and conduct business.

Think not? Don't pay the levied taxes and see how long you maintain possession.

Perhaps I need to clarify. (Seems like it shouldn't be necessary, but...) The part I'm asking data in support of is the claim that Govt. regulation increases year after year.

The other part is a prediction, so it's not really quantifiable.
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(KenV @ Sep. 18 2013, 1:27 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 12:02 am)
QUOTE
Just curious--what is the evidence that "the USA seems to be slipping toward more socialism?"

Excellent question!  Don't know if there's a simple answer.  That America is slipping into socialism is certainly a popular talking point/narrative and has been for some time.  The "gut feel" is that we are becoming more socialist, but is there measurable evidence of this?  I'll have to do some digging and get back to you on that.  It may very well be a false premise.

I respect this response Ken.
Too bad you were throwing around that very "talking point/narrative" in the OP.  

And you've described the very essence of a politically motivated "talking point/narrative" - keep repeating something until it becomes the "gut feel" of the masses.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 10:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why is it one extreme or the other? I think most reasonable people will agree that the ideal point is somewhere between our system and Greece's.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How have they achieved this?  With hyperbolic fear-mongering bumper-sticker politics, designed to seduce gullible window-lickers such as yourself.


Well stated, Orygawn, I agree with your assessment.

Worst thing that ever happened dimishing fairness and equality in America has been elevating the media news stars to become part of the 1%, so that they fight shy of publicizing the real class warfare that has been waged so successfully the last 35 years in this country.


I keep hoping that the internet and social media will be able to counteract the power of the oligarchs, and it did work to get Obama elected twice, but still pretty slow progress.

There are still a lot of neo-Confederates out there who buy into the right wing propaganda and work and vote against their own self interests.  Very strange, but persistent.

What IS wrong with Kansas??


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 11:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 10:37 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 18 2013, 7:12 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:04 am)
QUOTE

(BillBab @ Sep. 18 2013, 6:50 am)
QUOTE
Govt regulation increases year after year towards that point where they will be effectively running every business even if the ownership does not actually transfer

Is this true? I'd like to see the data on that, because I suspect it is not.

The US government actually owns everything in the country and alleged owners of property pay rent to possess that property and conduct business.

Think not? Don't pay the levied taxes and see how long you maintain possession.

Perhaps I need to clarify. (Seems like it shouldn't be necessary, but...) The part I'm asking data in support of is the claim that Govt. regulation increases year after year.

The other part is a prediction, so it's not really quantifiable.

http://www.moneynews.com/NealAsb....7

Not including state and local level regulations


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

OK. I will stipulate that there are more regulations on the books now than there were 10, 20, 30 years ago. That seems rather obvious: regulation is a cumulative process. Sometimes new regs replace old ones, but more often than not, they supplement old ones.

Does complying with regulations cost businesses money? Of course it does. If businesses weren't spending their money to comply with environmental regs, we'd be spending a lot more of our public money cleaning up after them. The money's getting spent by someone one way or the other, unless we're just willing to live with polluted land, air, and water as part of the cost of our consumer lifestyle.

The real question, which I guess might be harder to quantify than I originally imagined, is this "is the burden of regulation really getting greater for businesses?" and, even harder to quantify, "is it worth it for the benefit to the public?"
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Sep. 18 2013, 8:42 am)
QUOTE
http://www.moneynews.com/NealAsb....7

Not including state and local level regulations

The gist of the article is based on a report from Competitive Enterprise Institute.

From Competitive Enterprise Institue's website:
"We craft and deploy media advocacy campaigns around that foundation of solid research in order to reach policy makers, influential opinion leaders, and grassroots activists. CEI policy analysts produce timely commentaries for major news organizations, appear on television and radio, and reach out to beat reporters covering our issues."

Sounds an awful lot like a lobbying group.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Kenv said
QUOTE

Wow.  dennis, you went for the personal attack from the get-go this time


This is a common tactic of Kenv that he shares with Pros.  Pros would recklessly hurl the "ad hominem" attack
(which Kenv also likes to hurl recklessly) I think for the purpose of changing the subject when someone
a point he would rather hide from others. I think Kenv uses "personal attack" here in the same way.

Of course there was no personal attack. Since when does showing how Kenv misrepresenting someone amount to a
"personal  attack"? Again I think its clear that Kenv wished to hide the fact that he misrepresented what
orygawn said but can't  actually hide it so he thinks the best next way to hide it is to ironically attack the
messenger by accusing him of a "personal attack"

Kenv said
QUOTE

No feigning interest in the topic at hand at all, just an immediate personal attack.


What? Now Kenv knows this is lie as evidence by the fact that kenv also responded in post 13 to my 4 points
directly on this subject(post 10) which Kenv said "dennis, thanks for your  4 points.".

amazing.

Kenv said
QUOTE

And what's that say about your "fascination/obsession" with me?


Kenv's logic

Point out how he misrepresents someone then that amounts to "fascination/obsession" with Kenv

Oh but when Kenv refers to another poster by my handle in another thread, that I wasn't even involved in, then
thats  not "fascination/obsession". Please

Kenv said
QUOTE

What's that say about your character?  


well look at that. Kenv just got through accusing me of a "personal attack" and now Kenv directly attacks my character
for just noting how he misrepresented what another poster said.

Is there any limit to Kenv's lack of self-awareness?

Is there any limit to Kenv's hypocrisy?

Apparently not.

Kenv said
QUOTE

And BTW, what strawman?  Did I ascribe a position to orygawn at all?   Nope.  You conjured that up in your head.


and now Kenv denies what he did. A strawman is a misrepresentation of what someone said which may or may not be a position
and so when Kenv said "The king is the head of state and gets a salary.  Shocking." Kenv was obviously trying to imply that
orygawn thought the king having a salary was an issue in and of itself but there is nothing orygawn said or implied to lead
anyone to believe that.  Anyone can see what Kenv did.

Now of course will deny this because that is what Kenv does.

Kenv said
QUOTE

So not only did you lead with a personal attack, your attack was based on a false premise.  Good for you!


^^ more extreme ironic hypocritical projection

That statement in and of itself is a false premise since pointing out how Kenv misrepresented orygawn obviously isn't a personal
attack but when Kenv asks "What's that say about your character?" that  certainly is(now watch Kend deny it is because it was a
"question")


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 18 2013, 12:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

kenv said
QUOTE

dennis, thanks for your 4 points.


Right after Kenv said in post 11 " No feigning interest in the topic at hand"

This just amazing

kenv said
QUOTE

The Dutch government is proposing a fundamental and sweeping shift in both Dutch welfare policy and Dutch health
care policy.  You can of course wave the changes off as simple "austerity measures".  But describing a shift from
"unsustainable 20th century welfare state" to a "participatory society" as simply "austerity measures" is clearly
a totally false characterization of what the Dutch government is proposing.


^^ more extreme ironic projection and he did it again(another strawman)

the false characterization is to say But describing a shift from  "unsustainable 20th century welfare state" to a
"participatory society" as simply "austerity measures"


what I said was
It should also be pointed out that cuts in welfare can be considered under the category of austerity
measures


So once again Kenv has trouble with that word "can" just like he did in response to that post from HighGravity in the
"What Turned You Off Against Religion...?" thread.

But again Kenv does it again. A blatant misrepresenation of what someone said. Why does Kenv do this over and over
again?

Now on the point about how welfare can be considered under the category of austerity measures we have
this from the Austerity wiki


Development projects, welfare, and other social spending are common programs that are targeted for cuts: taxes, port
and airport fees, and train and bus fares are common sources of increased user fees. Retirement ages may be raised and
government pensions reduced.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity

Kenv said
QUOTE

But hey dennis, you go right ahead and call them whatever you want.  The Dutch people of course see this as much
more than simple austerity measures and are reacting accordingly.


as if Kenv speaks for the "dutch people".

Does Kenv have polling data to back that statement up?

and just like when Kenv claimed to have worked for the ATF and claimed over and over again very very confidently
that the ATF didn't regulate the gun/firearms industry when it was all over the ATF's webpage, I'm sure as hell
not going to take Kenv's word for what the "dutch people" think on anything or what the dutch government is
proposing. In fact given Kenv's history on this forum, I wouldn't believe one thing that comes out of his fingers
as he types away on this forum. Not ONE thing.


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