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Topic: Gun violence in the U.S., Why?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 10:57 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

OK, I know that I'm opening a can of worms here -not that it's not been opened before - but I am absolutely distraught over the gun violence in this country.  While trying to be rational on both sides, which I know is hard, what is the underlying reasons for it?  No other developed country comes even close to it and I suspect if you totaled the casualties over a year we would come close to the deaths in just about any country, developed or not, at war or not.  Mind you, at this point I'm not asking for solutions, just reasons.  It's terribly upsetting to me.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 11:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lack of reverence for life.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 12:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Sep. 22 2013, 8:56 am)
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Lack of reverence for life.

+1
And I would add an unhealthy infatuation with firearms.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 12:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Morals...........

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 12:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Health insurance companies began restricting access to mental health treatment for people in the late 1970's. Despite laws in the 1990's for health insurance companies to treat mental health with "parity", this practice has continued to expand. The result has been that a lot of mentally ill people are undiagnosed because they, or their families, cannot afford the expense. People who are diagnosed often cannot afford treatment because their health insurance companies have found ways to circumvent the "mental health parity" laws.

The result is that there are a lot of crazy people walking around in America. A few of these untreated mentally ill people push people off of subway platforms or drive cars into crowds of people - and some even obtain guns and kill a lot of people.

The US is the only country in the world that discourages the mentally ill from seeking treatment. It should be no surprise that SOME of these crazies kill.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 12:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

People who are diagnosed often cannot afford treatment because their health insurance companies have found ways to circumvent the "mental health parity" laws.

It is very much related to the parallel situation where we literally have millions of children in America who are malnourished and some starving.

This takes place in a country where we throw away nearly as much food as we actually consume!

But, we can't afford to feed our children, and we can't afford to treat our mentally ill citizens.

In fact, a primary political issue of the Party of NO is to cut food stamp support for poor people, including most of those children, because we can't afford them!

Until feeding the hungry children and treating the mentally ill become more important than insuring record corporate profits and making the ultra rich even richer, there will be no solution.

Our national values have always been at odds with ethical, moral behavior, from killing off the Native Americans, to Slavery, to the gun justice of the Wild West, to bombing the civilians of Viet Nam and Iraq.

I am guessing we have a long row to hoe before we get gun violence under control, if ever.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 2:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think there are a myriad number of reasons and just a few have been mentioned but one cause, as I see it, that rarely gets mentioned is one of our culture. We have a long history of settling our differences on an individual level as opposed to use of law enforcement organs. i.e. settlers vs. indians, the wild west, vigilantes, etc.

We have a history that is rich in violence.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 8:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Could not agree more.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 8:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's the nature of a heterogenous society.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 22 2013, 9:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's the nature of a heterogenous society.

That is just a pure cop out, and not true.

It is not inherent in a herogenous society to be violent and uncaring about the bottom rank of their society. Kinda the opposite.

Human society developed in a heterogenous atmosphere, at first everyone was different and alien, but somehow our ancestors learned to overcome, and even take advantage of those differences.

The only factor that makes the US especially heterogenous is our mix of skin colors.  All the other human characteristics are present in every human society.  We have not been able, so far, to overcome the negative reaction to other skin colors, strange as that seems.

Where societies have pretty much one racial profile, they still have the whole range of body types, psychological profiles, IQ range, physical skills, language skills, and sexual orientations.

But we are having a really hard time getting past the skin color differentiation issues.  

Making progress, but slowly.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 6:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

1.  We are a violent, individualistic society, and have been since before the nation was founded.

2.  While gun related gun killings in the USA are higher than most nations, are total killings in the USA higher than most nations?  In other words, are we focussing on the killing, or the weapon used to accomplish the killing?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 6:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 22 2013, 9:05 pm)
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It's the nature of a heterogenous society.

That is just a pure cop out, and not true.

It is not inherent in a herogenous society to be violent and uncaring about the bottom rank of their society. Kinda the opposite.

Human society developed in a heterogenous atmosphere, at first everyone was different and alien, but somehow our ancestors learned to overcome, and even take advantage of those differences.

The only factor that makes the US especially heterogenous is our mix of skin colors.  All the other human characteristics are present in every human society.  We have not been able, so far, to overcome the negative reaction to other skin colors, strange as that seems.

Where societies have pretty much one racial profile, they still have the whole range of body types, psychological profiles, IQ range, physical skills, language skills, and sexual orientations.

But we are having a really hard time getting past the skin color differentiation issues.  

Making progress, but slowly.

Wait, what?

Are you saying that the "bottom ranks" of our society are disproportionate victims of gun violence?

Are you saying that "skin color differentiation" in our society accounts for a disproportionate share of gun violence?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 12:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Poor people in black and Hispanic neighborhoods are the victims of gun violence many times that of the lilly white, mid and upper class white neighborhoods.

You could look it up.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Y'all just don't want to get it do you?

We have no reverence for life.

We execute(read as eugenics), abort, murder, suicide, drive like idiots, and do anything we can to kill ourselves and others.  We believe WE are the arbiters of life.  WE get to decide who lives and dies.

And WE spread that belief throughout society so that anyone believes they can decide who lives or dies.

It's not guns.  It's our mindset.

Revere life.  Eschew violent death.

The previous opinion should not be construed as an abdication of self defense.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 4:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And we eat double cheeseburgers Tdummie. You left that one out.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 4:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tamarac @ Sep. 23 2013, 4:48 pm)
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And we eat double cheeseburgers Tdummie. You left that one out.

Your problem may be a lack of double cheeseburgers.

Although I doubt it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 5:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Are you upset about the number of people who are killed in automobile accidents?

Most of them are avoidable, certainly just as avoidable as gun deaths, and many of them are just as tragic, just as violent, and just as painful.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 5:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well it might be a mystery but I would think that one is more like to have a beer if there is one in the fridge...

Before anyone mentions Switzerland and Israel, the culture there is totally different.
Nobody goes shopping in Geneva or Tel Aviv wearing a gun.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 5:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Sep. 23 2013, 5:04 pm)
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Are you upset about the number of people who are killed in automobile accidents?

Most of them are avoidable, certainly just as avoidable as gun deaths, and many of them are just as tragic, just as violent, and just as painful.

Yes, I am.

Stupid driving kills more people than most other ways.

And those are licensed, state certified drivers.  So much for "weapons" control.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 6:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Stupid driving kills more people than most other ways.

Except death by gun is now surpassing death by automobile.

And we have taken huge strides in cutting down auto deaths with many new safety features, improved design, and strict enforcement.  Auto deaths have been cut nearly in half, while the population has increased by over 50 million Americans.

An excellent step in the right direction.

On the other hand gun deaths are increasing steadily, and all steps to improve safety and design are stopped dead by the NRA, the arms manufacturers, and by gun nuts who cannot recognize their own best interests.

But, who's counting?


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 6:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 23 2013, 3:00 pm)
QUOTE
On the other hand gun deaths are increasing steadily, and all steps to improve safety and design are stopped dead by the NRA, the arms manufacturers, and by gun nuts who cannot recognize their own best interests.

I was in a local sporting shop last night.  They had number of gun safes with biometric locks that read finger prints.  The store claims they sell a lot of them.  So the technology is good enough that many gun owners are willing to count on it for securing, (and accessing) their weapons. Why is the suggestion of using similar technology on the guns themselves met with so much opposition?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 23 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 23 2013, 6:00 pm)
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Stupid driving kills more people than most other ways.

Except death by gun is now surpassing death by automobile.

Prove that.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 11:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Sep. 23 2013, 6:50 pm)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Sep. 23 2013, 6:00 pm)
QUOTE
Stupid driving kills more people than most other ways.

Except death by gun is now surpassing death by automobile.

Prove that.

Data probably won't influence your thinking TD, but it is helpful for other readers, so here goes.



Guns and cars have long been among the leading causes of non-medical deaths in the U.S. By 2015, firearm fatalities will probably exceed traffic fatalities for the first time, based on data compiled by Bloomberg.

Chart: Gun-Related Deaths in U.S. Set to Pass Auto Fatalities

While motor-vehicle deaths dropped 22 percent from 2005 to 2010, gun fatalities are rising again after a low point in 2000, according to the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Shooting deaths in 2015 will probably rise to almost 33,000, and those related to autos will decline to about 32,000, based on the 10-year average trend.

As the nation reels from the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, the shift shows the effects of public policy, said Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence
Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis.

The fall in traffic deaths resulted from safer vehicles, restricted privileges for young drivers and seat-belt and other laws, he said. By contrast, “we’ve made policy decisions that have had the impact of making the widest array of firearms available to the widest array of people under the widest array of conditions.” While fewer households have guns, people who own guns are buying more of them, he said.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news....15.html

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today announced that the number and rate of traffic fatalities in 2010 fell to the lowest levels since 1949, despite a significant increase in the number of miles Americans drove during the year.
"Last year's drop in traffic fatalities is welcome news and it proves that we can make a difference," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "Still, too many of our friends and neighbors are killed in preventable roadway tragedies every day. We will continue doing everything possible to make cars safer, increase seat belt use, put a stop to drunk driving and distracted driving and encourage drivers to put safety first."

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) early projections, the number of traffic fatalities fell three percent between 2009 and 2010, from 33,808 to 32,788. Since 2005, fatalities have dropped 25 percent, from a total of 43,510 fatalities in 2005. The same estimates also project that the fatality rate will be the lowest recorded since 1949, with 1.09 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled, down from the 1.13 fatality rate for 2009. The decrease in fatalities for 2010 occurred despite an estimated increase of nearly 21 billion miles in national vehicle miles traveled.


http://www.nhtsa.gov/PR/NHTSA-05-11


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 11:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

2015?  Wait, what year are in now?  2013.  Sorry, FAIL.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 12:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Told you so!!

LOL

Actual thinking and application of the data takes a different world view.

Maybe amphibians just spend too much time underwater, or under earth??


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course this is the new normal throughout the world. But blaming guns is a cop out. US citizens have long had access to some fairly destructive weapons. To some extent the media plays a role. there is certainly a copycat component and the media puts far greater coverage and attention to the shooter than the victims. In Colorado we still remember the names Klebold and Harris; the victims , not so much.

I'm probably more dismayed by the news out of Iraq and Afghanastan each day. It seems the number 80 appears almost daily associated with people killed by suicide bombers in the bombing of the day.

The one constant in the recent spate of US carnage is mental health issues. No gun control law even tries to address this. No background check, waiting period, magazine limit, etc. is going to change this. we know where the problems lies but we're too PC to address it.

I see the same similarity with airport security. We've got TSA more focused on making sure everyone takes off their shoes than profiling.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 1:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Duhh!

Because profiling is a surefire way to play into the terrorist play book.

If there is a profile, there is a glaring weak point in any surveilance system.

Just send a blond honey or a kind British gentelman on board with the bomb, and laugh at the profilers.

How soon would they be putting explosives in the breast implants??


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 2:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gun violence? Hah! Syria did some stuff. Let's go lob some bombs over there.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 6:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Violence why?

Turn on your TV, switch to any channel and start counting:

A gun is shown
A gun is used
A person is shot
A person is dead

you cant watch ten minutes without seeing one of these.


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(hbfa @ Sep. 23 2013, 6:35 pm)
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(wwwest @ Sep. 23 2013, 3:00 pm)
QUOTE
On the other hand gun deaths are increasing steadily, and all steps to improve safety and design are stopped dead by the NRA, the arms manufacturers, and by gun nuts who cannot recognize their own best interests.

I was in a local sporting shop last night.  They had number of gun safes with biometric locks that read finger prints.  The store claims they sell a lot of them.  So the technology is good enough that many gun owners are willing to count on it for securing, (and accessing) their weapons. Why is the suggestion of using similar technology on the guns themselves met with so much opposition?

Why?  Let's explore that.

How big is gunsafe technology?  How heavy?  How robust?

What happens to the usefulness of a weapon when gunsafe size and weight technology is added to it?  

What happens to gunsafe technology when it experiences the violent recoil of a weapon when it is fired?

What happens to gunsafe technology when it experiences the other environmental factors guns experience, like oils and chemicals used to maintain guns, body and holster oils, water, temperature extremes when stored in an automobile, etc, etc.

Second, do gun owners who use gunsafes with such technology use it for ALL their guns?  Or do they distrust such tehcnology enough that they keep at least one gun OUT of the safe and in a much more ready state and location?

Was that helpful?
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