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Topic: Gun-Related Article...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 4:04 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I believe there was some talk on this shooting on the board a couple of weeks back...

http://missoulian.com/news....f4.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 6:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Franklin told detectives at the hospital that he was drugged and probably thought Jones’ home was the house of a friend on East Spruce, where he had been staying.

Throwing a chair through the front picture window is how one enters the home where staying as a guest? Really? He couldn't come up with something better?


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 7:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A visiting teacher got drunk, then enter the wrong home.  The homeowners were upstairs and when they heard the noise downstairs they called 911.  The husband got his shotgun, stood at the top of the stairs and warned the intruder.  The drunk just kept coming at him.  Afraid for his life the husband fires and killed the drunk.

Completely justifiable shooting.  Our homes are the last place of refuge.  We have no way of distinguishing a murderer from a drunk.  Calling 911, giving a warning, and waiting until the last possible minute before using a weapon defensively is all we can ask of a potential victim.

The death of that teacher was a terrible tragedy, but it was the fault of the drunk and his family and friends that held the drinking fests, not the innocent homeowner who had every reason to believe that he and his wife were in danger.

Amherst man talks about the night he shot Albany teacher who intruded in his home
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 11:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good to see some genuine stories of home defense by Americans armed, and sensible.

Please note that there was no need for an AR-15, or any other high powered people killer, just one shot, after repeated warnings, and the homeowner called 911 for assistance and crime scene analysis.

This is the way real, necessary home defense works.  

No need for hysteria about an invading army, no need to fire 20 or 100 rounds, just shoot the intruder once and call the cops.  

Hopefully one is able to call the cops first, before shooting, but a lot of us live in communities where help will not arrive before you have to shoot.

No fantasy battles, just straight forward home defense, in my case with a double barrel shotgun, when the need arises.

So why all the sophistry trying to make a silly case that an AR-15 is a better home defense weapon than my good old shotgun??

What a country!


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 3:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not much controversy here. Dumb a$$ gets himself shot. Seems justified.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 24 2013, 3:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Looks like a completely justifiable and responsible example of self defense.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 10:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 24 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
Good to see some genuine stories of home defense by Americans armed, and sensible.

Please note that there was no need for an AR-15, or any other high powered people killer, just one shot, after repeated warnings, and the homeowner called 911 for assistance and crime scene analysis.

This is the way real, necessary home defense works.  

No need for hysteria about an invading army, no need to fire 20 or 100 rounds, just shoot the intruder once and call the cops.  

Hopefully one is able to call the cops first, before shooting, but a lot of us live in communities where help will not arrive before you have to shoot.

No fantasy battles, just straight forward home defense, in my case with a double barrel shotgun, when the need arises.

So why all the sophistry trying to make a silly case that an AR-15 is a better home defense weapon than my good old shotgun??

What a country!

The homeowner killed him with one shot from his hi-powered people killer shotgun

The same hi-powered people killer (hammer of death) used in the Navy Yard killings

Sounds like the fantasies are yours


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 12:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, the reality is my good old shotgun, that I and Joe have always touted as the most effective home defense arm.

The point, which you are trying so hard to dodge, is that no AR-15, or any other many shooter was, or is, needed for home defense.

Plus, they are a travesty as hunting rifles, especially in the hands of the neophyte hunter.

So there is really no need to defend these fairly worthless toys, except as a way to pad the obscene profits being raked in from gullible gun nuts who are egged on by the NRA.  YMMV


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 1:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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QUOTE
The homeowner killed him with one shot from his hi-powered people killer shotgun


Shotguns are the preferred weapon of gangs and drug smugglers to use in drive-by killings. A single pull of the trigger on one of these people killer scatterguns sends 20 or more .30 cal buckshot bullets into crowds of innocent people. These buckshot bullets often kill children and innocent bystanders. Shotguns are dangerous guns made for only one purpose - to kill.

Such scatterguns are not needed by legitimate hunters and are viewed as "unsportsmanlike" by hunters who value marksmanship. Unlike the AR-15 with a high capacity magazine, which is the preferred gun for hog hunting, the shotgun is just a "point-and-shoot" scattergun.

There is no good reason why shotguns should not be banned.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wow, we finally have a poster calling for the banning of sporting arms!  Good to know who the extremists really are.

But, really, no need for the ban of that ultra dangerous shotgun, just get on with developing high tech safety features so that only the registered owner can fire the shotgun.

Incidentally, please send a video of your quail hunt with AR-15.

And, if you are going to make such silly claims as: Shotguns are the preferred weapon of gangs and drug smugglers to use in drive-by killings.

You should provide some documentation, but I know that will be hard for you to do, on several levels.  heh


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 2:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 24 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
Good to see some genuine stories of home defense by Americans armed, and sensible.

Please note that there was no need for an AR-15, or any other high powered people killer, just one shot, after repeated warnings, and the homeowner called 911 for assistance and crime scene analysis.

This is the way real, necessary home defense works.  

No need for hysteria about an invading army, no need to fire 20 or 100 rounds, just shoot the intruder once and call the cops.  

So why all the sophistry trying to make a silly case that an AR-15 is a better home defense weapon than my good old shotgun??

What a country!

Was wondering what your strategy would be in this real case?

"CAPE CORAL, Fla. - Cape Coral police arrested six people in connection with a home invasion robbery early Wednesday morning."

http://www.fox4now.com/news....02.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 26 2013, 11:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well actually it seems like a simple problem:

Step 1 -  Don't deal drugs.

Step 2 -  If you just cannot stop yourself and have to deal drugs, don't do it where your clients know where you live.

No need for any firearms.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 1:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Still going to silly lengths to demonize specific weapons. If only we could get rid of those big scary assault weapons the world would be a safe place and the unicorns would come back!

Chicago is the muder capital of this country and the young black men there are using handguns to kill each other as well as others that get caught in the crossfire. They do this despite the draconian gun laws in the city. They do this with pitiful popguns that are not particularly powerful, simply convenient and concealable.

Since all the gun laws in the world have not convinced the gang bangers to give up their handguns (often revolvers) the governor is actually considering sending in the antional guard who I am quite certain will be armed with those big scary "high powered people killers"

But because the bangers are much smarter than the anti-gun crowd  ( or anti-___gun crowd), they are unlikely to suddenly upgrade their armament because they understand that all weapons can kill

I firmly believe that the average gang banger has a much better grasp of terminal ballistics than the smartest gun banner in the world

Demonizing specific weapon platforms is just plain stupid. There are plenty of weapons out there that I have no personal use for and a double barrel shotgun is pretty high on that list. But just because I am not a bird hunter and no longer shoot trap/skeet/clays does not eman I get to decide what weapons are "sensible" or "worthless"

Telling everyone that their beloved over/under is dumb because you don't shoot birds or clays is just as assinine as telling someone their AR15 is lame because you are not cool enough to compete in 3-gun

Fueling the "assault weapon" hysteria requires you to ignore the simple fact that long guns (of all types) are rarely used in violent crime and not because they are not powerful...simply because they are less convenient and harder to conceal. It requires you to suspend common sense and equate appearance with deadliness

The navy yard shooter did not cut down his scattergun because it made it more powerful, accurate or deadly...he simply needed it to fit into a bag so he could sneak it in. There are plenty of aftermarket gadgets and gizmos he could have bolted onto it to make it look more scary and (arguably) to make it somewhat more efficient for rapid/accurate fire but instead he just made it more easy to conceal and less ergonomic

There is a difference between simple ignorance, willful ignorance, and simply stirring up public opinion to further some personal agenda


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 7:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 26 2013, 11:58 pm)
QUOTE
Well actually it seems like a simple problem:

Step 1 -  Don't deal drugs.

Step 2 -  If you just cannot stop yourself and have to deal drugs, don't do it where your clients know where you live.

No need for any firearms.

Let me clarify; it was directed at the premise of yours saying a weapon like a shotgun is all that is needed. The point was if multiple people invade your home, as in the case with these folks regardless of circumstances, personally I would like to have an AR-15 with a 30 round clip vs a 6 round shot gun.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 9:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

BillBab
QUOTE
There are plenty of weapons out there that I have no personal use for and a double barrel shotgun is pretty high on that list.


+1

I think that most REAL hunters and sportsmen would agree with you. The shotgun, scattergun, is even less sporting than a machine gun for hunters and marksmen.

The fact is, hunters and sportsmen do NOT NEED a shotgun any more than they NEED a machine gun. At least the AR-15 is a gun proven to be a surperb choice for wild hog hunters and even deer hunters in the southern US. Marksmen often choose the AR-15 for target practice and shooting competitions. The shotgun, like the machine gun, is not designed for marksmanship - ONLY to throw out as many bullets or buckshot as possible and to kill everything that general direction. Worse, the double-barreled shotgun, when fired from a car window during a drive-by shooting, throws out an even larger "pattern" of death.

It is common sense that these hand cannons and scatterguns should be banned.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Shotguns are the preferred weapon of gangs and drug smugglers to use in drive-by killings. A single pull of the trigger on one of these people killer scatterguns sends 20 or more .30 cal buckshot bullets

Wrong on both counts. Not surprising coming from you.

QUOTE
Such scatterguns are not needed by legitimate hunters and are viewed as "unsportsmanlike" by hunters who value marksmanship

Horses**t. Try hitting a flying bird with a bolt action .30-06 or even unloading an entire 30 round AR-15 mag. Not gonna happen except by luck.

Oh, and many eastern states don't permit high powered rifles for hunting and restrict firearms to shotguns ONLY due to the much more limited range.

As usual, you're pulling ignorance out of your a$$.

QUOTE
The point was if multiple people invade your home, as in the case with these folks regardless of circumstances, personally I would like to have an AR-15 with a 30 round clip vs a 6 round shot gun.

There's a really good reason when I had a choice back in the day that I chose to carry a 12ga pump shotgun rather than a fully automatic M-16 for CG law enforcement boardings .

My defense 12ga shotgun with an 18" barrel produces a 4.5"-5" pattern at 15' of 12, 00 (.32 caliber) pellets and an intruder is not getting up from that. 6 rounds in the chamber and tube plus another 6 on a sidesaddle that I can reload in about 2 seconds and I have the capability of 144 00 pellets on target(s) in about the same time as your 15 .223 bullets. Add a bandoleer of another 50 rounds and in a home defense situation, my shotgun will beat the hell out of your AR.

ARs have their place. Home defense ain't one.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 27 2013, 11:27 am)
QUOTE
ARs have their place. Home defense ain't one.

Thought this article brought out some good points;

"A shotgun has some benefits, but for me, they don't outweigh the benefits of an AR-15"


http://badgerpeak.com/blog/Defense/
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 12:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Sep. 26 2013, 10:08 am)
QUOTE
BillBab
QUOTE
The homeowner killed him with one shot from his hi-powered people killer shotgun


Shotguns are the preferred weapon of gangs and drug smugglers to use in drive-by killings. A single pull of the trigger on one of these people killer scatterguns sends 20 or more .30 cal buckshot bullets into crowds of innocent people. These buckshot bullets often kill children and innocent bystanders. Shotguns are dangerous guns made for only one purpose - to kill.

Such scatterguns are not needed by legitimate hunters and are viewed as "unsportsmanlike" by hunters who value marksmanship. Unlike the AR-15 with a high capacity magazine, which is the preferred gun for hog hunting, the shotgun is just a "point-and-shoot" scattergun.

There is no good reason why shotguns should not be banned.

Name any firearm whose primary purpose is to annoy?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 12:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trailgunner @ Sep. 27 2013, 7:42 am)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Sep. 26 2013, 11:58 pm)
QUOTE
Well actually it seems like a simple problem:

Step 1 -  Don't deal drugs.

Step 2 -  If you just cannot stop yourself and have to deal drugs, don't do it where your clients know where you live.

No need for any firearms.

Let me clarify; it was directed at the premise of yours saying a weapon like a shotgun is all that is needed. The point was if multiple people invade your home, as in the case with these folks regardless of circumstances, personally I would like to have an AR-15 with a 30 round clip vs a 6 round shot gun.

But the fact is that those events just do not happen in America, for normal law abiding citizens, so there is no need for a military equivalent weapon.

To the paranoid gun nut such a thing is a constant threat, and the gun nut is willing to overlook thousands of family members being killed, accidentally or by suicide, and mass school shootings every few months in the unfounded belief that someday a gang is going to invade his home for no rational reason.

Ain't gonna happen unless the person is a drug dealer or an organized crime figure who has been targeted for elimination.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 1:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Sep. 27 2013, 12:57 pm)
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Ain't gonna happen unless the person is a drug dealer or an organized crime figure who has been targeted for elimination.

Hmm, seems like a personal conjecture.

Here are a few examples of "ain't gonna happen";

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012....nvasion

http://articles.courant.com/2012-10....-people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFT_2ZOgVQg#t=11

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news....nvasion
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 2:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yet given the absence of an established motive for those incidents isn't it your personal conjecture they don't fit his scenario for exceptions?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 2:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trailgunner @ Sep. 27 2013, 1:59 pm)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Sep. 27 2013, 12:57 pm)
QUOTE
Ain't gonna happen unless the person is a drug dealer or an organized crime figure who has been targeted for elimination.

Hmm, seems like a personal conjecture.

Here are a few examples of "ain't gonna happen";

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012....nvasion

http://articles.courant.com/2012-10....-people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFT_2ZOgVQg#t=11

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news....nvasion

Example 1 - Police will not say exactly what those suspects wanted from inside the home, and whether or not the home was picked at random or was targeted.

What's your best guess?  Don't deal drugs.  Read my lips.

Example 2 -  man shot several times, family not touched.

Don't rat out the other mob members.

Example 3 - 2 men is a gang attacking someone they know??  My double barrel would have been quite sufficient.

Example 4 - Another drug deal gone bad.

The three other suspects, two men and a woman, left a vehicle at the scene, ran from the area and were being sought by police.

A motive was unclear. Steiber said detectives had not interviewed the man or woman who lived at the apartment, and it's unclear whether the victims knew the intruders.

Both of the adult residents were being treated by paramedics, but not for gunshots, he said. Fire Department paramedics initially said three people had been shot.

The infant in the home was not harmed.

Steiber said it's not known whether the resident was acting in self-defense when he killed the man. The investigation was in its early stages.

"A person has a right to defend their home," he said. "It's too early for me to know."


http://www.reviewjournal.com/news....nvasion

What is really quite astounding is that these scumbags carry on their illegal activities with their wives and children in attendance, and attract being attacked in their homes.

Why you want to hold up people like this as the example for needing military guns in our houses is a complete mystery to me.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 2:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trailgunner @ Sep. 27 2013, 10:59 am)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Sep. 27 2013, 12:57 pm)
QUOTE
Ain't gonna happen unless the person is a drug dealer or an organized crime figure who has been targeted for elimination.

Hmm, seems like a personal conjecture.

Here are a few examples of "ain't gonna happen";

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012....nvasion

http://articles.courant.com/2012-10....-people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFT_2ZOgVQg#t=11

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news....nvasion

And a quick google search of "accidental shooting" turns up 23,000,000 results in 0.35 seconds.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 2:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Example 1 - Police will not say exactly what those suspects wanted from inside the home, and whether or not the home was picked at random or was targeted.

What's your best guess?  Don't deal drugs.  Read my lips.

Not sure how you know that? Would like to know more more how you do. Common police procedure not to disclose information. Again, personal conjecture.

Example 2 -  man shot several times, family not touched.

Don't rat out the other mob members.

How do you know that? Again, personal conjecture.

Example 3 - 2 men is a gang attacking someone they know??  My double barrel would have been quite sufficient.

Are you a professional? have you tested your proficiency in real life situations? Again, person conjecture.

Example 4 - Another drug deal gone bad.

The three other suspects, two men and a woman, left a vehicle at the scene, ran from the area and were being sought by police.

A motive was unclear. Steiber said detectives had not interviewed the man or woman who lived at the apartment, and it's unclear whether the victims knew the intruders.

Both of the adult residents were being treated by paramedics, but not for gunshots, he said. Fire Department paramedics initially said three people had been shot.

The infant in the home was not harmed.

Steiber said it's not known whether the resident was acting in self-defense when he killed the man. The investigation was in its early stages.

"A person has a right to defend their home," he said. "It's too early for me to know."


http://www.reviewjournal.com/news....nvasion

What is really quite astounding is that these scumbags carry on their illegal activities with their wives and children in attendance, and attract being attacked in their homes.

Why you want to hold up people like this as the example for needing military guns in our houses is a complete mystery to me.

I notice how you conveniently left out the man selling wood.

First you say it's "never gonna happen" then your confronted with examples of the opposite, then your position shifts to "why are you using these people as examples".

I think the mystery is coming from your side of the isle.


Think I am getting it now, after reading your past posts your a pretty closed minded individual that has some type of vendetta against anyone that polity disagrees with your views. Not interested in that type of "friendly discourse".
My mistake thinking different views were welcomed and reasonable views courteously accepted.


Good luck!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 2:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I notice how you conveniently left out the man selling wood.

No, you just skipped over it.

Two guys coming after someone they know is not a "gang".  Just one for each barrel.

Please pay attention.

I love the way you look for excuses for these people attracting attacks in their own homes.  I am sure that there are actual examples where innocent homeowners were attacked by an armed gang.

Sadly nearly all of those examples involve a no knock invasion by a swat team that has gone to the wrong address while trying to take down a drug dealer.  

And in that situtation, you military style weapon will almost certainly get you killed.


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 3:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
And a quick google search of "accidental shooting" turns up 23,000,000 results in 0.35 seconds.

Damn! That many people are getting killed every year in accidental shootings?
Oh... right... that figure includes a few million duplicates.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 3:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trailgunner @ Sep. 27 2013, 10:34 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 27 2013, 11:27 am)
QUOTE
ARs have their place. Home defense ain't one.

Thought this article brought out some good points;

"A shotgun has some benefits, but for me, they don't outweigh the benefits of an AR-15"


http://badgerpeak.com/blog/Defense/

QUOTE
Slight spread pattern of the shot to increase hit probability* Spread is very minimal in most in-home distances

About 4.5"-5" for 00 at 15'. 6.5"-7" for #6 at 15' from an open choke 18" barrel.
QUOTE
Heavy recoil reduces ability of quick followup shots

Recoil reduction stocks reduce recoil by as much as 85%
QUOTE
Ammunition capacity is very small (5-8 rounds depending on model)

True but each shell contains 9-000 (.38cal) or 12-00 (.32cal) pellets (my choices).
QUOTE
Range is limited. After you stop the home intruder, you notice his buddies approaching the house from 150 yards away (effectively out of range)

Flechettes. Effective range around 250 yards.
QUOTE
Slow to reload (reloading 5 rounds takes about 6 seconds)

Only for the untrained. I can do it in about 2.
QUOTE
Ineffective against body armor (armor use is becoming more common among criminals)

Flechettes again. Right through non-ceramic body armor. A slug may not penetrate but it will rupture/break body parts beneath the impact point.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 3:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh, I forgot to mention the various other exotic loads.

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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 3:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Sep. 27 2013, 12:17 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
And a quick google search of "accidental shooting" turns up 23,000,000 results in 0.35 seconds.

Damn! That many people are getting killed every year in accidental shootings?
Oh... right... that figure includes a few million duplicates.

It's just an example of google-fu.  

Tailgunner ran and found a few stories to support his contention that armed gangs are busting down the doors.  I just ran and found 23,000,000 stories of accidental shootings.

Niether prove a damn thing.  I thought that would've been obvious.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 27 2013, 3:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

sar·casm
noun
: the use of words that mean the opposite of what you really want to say especially in order to insult someone, to show irritation, or to be funny

I thought that would've been obvious.


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