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Topic: Guns and Children in America< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:33 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is a story that should be covered everyday on the national news.  Have a memorial for the children killed by guns that day, on every channel, every day.


The .45-caliber pistol that killed Lucas Heagren, 3, on Memorial Day last year at his Ohio home had been temporarily hidden under the couch by his father. But Lucas found it and shot himself through the right eye. “It’s bad,” his mother told the 911 dispatcher. “It’s really bad.”

A few days later in Georgia, Cassie Culpepper, 11, was riding in the back of a pickup with her 12-year-old brother and two other children. Her brother started playing with a pistol his father had lent him to scare coyotes. Believing he had removed all the bullets, he pointed the pistol at his sister and squeezed the trigger. It fired, and blood poured from Cassie’s mouth.

Just a few weeks earlier, in Houston, a group of youths found a Glock pistol in an apartment closet while searching for snack money. A 15-year-old boy was handling the gun when it went off. Alex Whitfield, who had just turned 11, was struck. A relative found the bullet in his ashes from the funeral home.

Cases like these are among the most gut-wrenching of gun deaths. Children shot accidentally — usually by other children — are collateral casualties of the accessibility of guns in America, their deaths all the more devastating for being eminently preventable.

They die in the households of police officers and drug dealers, in broken homes and close-knit families, on rural farms and in city apartments. Some adults whose guns were used had tried to store them safely; others were grossly negligent. Still others pulled the trigger themselves, accidentally fracturing their own families while cleaning a pistol or hunting.

And there are far more of these innocent victims than official records show.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013....p&_r=1&


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Let's forget the children killed by, and in, cars.  Or poisoning.  Or any other way the children, and people, die accidentally every day  Let's just focus on guns.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And Yes, by not having health insurance. Children die a lot of ways, but through firearm negligence should be one we could and should do way better at preventing.

What is more reasonable-to own loaded guns and have small children or to take them with you when you drive automobiles?

Kind of a non sequiter isn't it?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Oct. 01 2013, 7:41 am)
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Let's forget the children killed by, and in, cars.  Or poisoning.  Or any other way the children, and people, die accidentally every day  Let's just focus on guns.

Gee, if only took some measures to make children safer in cars and protect them from poison. If only there were an agency--call it a "Consumer Product Safety Commission", or something like that--dedicated to making all consumer products safer, not just for kids but for everyone. Wouldn't that be great?

And if there were such a thing, well, then it would make sense to focus on the stuff they don't cover. Like guns.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 1:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

News flash.  My son had a couple of his friends over last weekend.  They spent most of Saturday in the backyard shooting skeet.  Nobody got hurt.  They had a blast.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 2:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 01 2013, 10:24 am)
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News flash.  My son had a couple of his friends over last weekend.  They spent most of Saturday in the backyard shooting skeet.  Nobody got hurt.  They had a blast.

"How come the newspapers talk about crime all the time? How come they never report on all the people who don't get robbed or raped or murdered?"

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 3:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Irresponsible parenting, all of it. How about a memorial to all children killed through the sheer stupidity of their parents?

We all knew that any firearm was to be presumed loaded, and you don't pull the trigger unless you intent to kill whatever you're pointing at. When we were too small to understand that, they were kept locked up.

Simple.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 3:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

C'mon Y girl,  why expect parents to be responsible?

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 4:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(yosemite girl @ Oct. 01 2013, 12:43 pm)
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Irresponsible parenting, all of it. How about a memorial to all children killed through the sheer stupidity of their parents?

We all knew that any firearm was to be presumed loaded, and you don't pull the trigger unless you intent to kill whatever you're pointing at. When we were too small to understand that, they were kept locked up.

Simple.

Yup--irresponsible parenting, all right.

But that's predictable. Humans are fundamentally incompetent, and they're especially incompetent at raising children. A fairly high percentage of parents will be irresponsible in any number of fairly appalling ways.

That irresponsibility isn't necessarily life-threatening...unless those irresponsible parents have firearms. In which case, it's a tragedy waiting to happen.

The widespread availability of firearms, and the absence of safety measures that would mitigate the hazard, has a built-in body count among the children of irresponsible (but "law-abiding") parents.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 5:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's also predictable that people will get into accidents and kill people because they're texting on their phones while driving.  In Colorado this is already illegal, but you see it all the time.

So should we outlaw cell phones?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 7:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Children: Children ages 1 to 4 have the highest drowning rates. In 2009, among children 1 to 4 years old who died from an unintentional injury, more than 30% died from drowning.1,2  Among children ages 1 to 4, most drownings occur in home swimming pools.2 Drowning is responsible for more deaths among children 1-4 than any other cause except congenital anomalies (birth defects).1 Among those 1-14, fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death behind motor vehicle crashes.1


http://www.cdc.gov/homeand....et.html

If no one had a pool, then no child would drown.  What could be simpler?  

A pool isn't a necessity by any stretch of the imagination.  it won't protect you or your family from a rapists with murder in his plans.  It won't take you to the grocery store.  It might send your child to the morgue.

But the national pool association wants to distract you from those deaths, so they'll post stories about death by firearms hoping you won't notice those kids floating face down in america's pools.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 7:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 01 2013, 2:14 pm)
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It's also predictable that people will get into accidents and kill people because they're texting on their phones while driving.  In Colorado this is already illegal, but you see it all the time.

So should we outlaw cell phones?

I would say yes, absolutely. I think cell phones should be illegal for the same reason meth is: humans have proven themselves to be completely incapable of using them responsibly.

That said, there's a lot of middle ground between the current anything-goes approach to guns and banning them outright. As the article notes, the NRA has lobbied against measures that would protect children without penalizing responsible gun owners.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 7:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Oct. 01 2013, 4:01 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Children: Children ages 1 to 4 have the highest drowning rates. In 2009, among children 1 to 4 years old who died from an unintentional injury, more than 30% died from drowning.1,2  Among children ages 1 to 4, most drownings occur in home swimming pools.2 Drowning is responsible for more deaths among children 1-4 than any other cause except congenital anomalies (birth defects).1 Among those 1-14, fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death behind motor vehicle crashes.1


http://www.cdc.gov/homeand....et.html

If no one had a pool, then no child would drown.  What could be simpler?  

A pool isn't a necessity by any stretch of the imagination.  it won't protect you or your family from a rapists with murder in his plans.  It won't take you to the grocery store.  It might send your child to the morgue.

But the national pool association wants to distract you from those deaths, so they'll post stories about death by firearms hoping you won't notice those kids floating face down in america's pools.

Well, out here in California, pools are required to be completely enclosed by fencing. Per the CBC (California Building Code), if your house's walls form part of that enclosure, any doors leading out to the pool must be equipped with a beeper / alarm system that sounds whenever the door is opened to alert you that someone has gone into the pool area.

It's obnoxious, and it applies even when there are no children living in the house. But - it isn't a constitutional right to have a pool, so we deal with it. There are lots of work-arounds, just like there are for the California gun laws. I don't think the # of drownings has decreased. So...that's a pretty good comparison, I think. What do you do, outlaw pools?

Is anyone arguing for an outright ban on firearms? I haven't seen that, at least in the mainstream. I think what it boils down to is differing opinions on how to make them safer or how to cut down on accidental deaths. Well - you can enact all of the trigger lock/safe storage/cable lock legislation you want, but we're never going to get rid of the moronic parents who slide their gun under a sofa cushion "just for a second."

People make stupid decisions. We can't start hacking up the Constitution because some people are irresponsible.

I still think the solution is to put birth control in the water, and let people apply for the antidote. Of course, I'm kidding. Sort of.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 7:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 01 2013, 4:14 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 01 2013, 2:14 pm)
QUOTE
It's also predictable that people will get into accidents and kill people because they're texting on their phones while driving.  In Colorado this is already illegal, but you see it all the time.

So should we outlaw cell phones?

I would say yes, absolutely. I think cell phones should be illegal for the same reason meth is: humans have proven themselves to be completely incapable of using them responsibly.

That said, there's a lot of middle ground between the current anything-goes approach to guns and banning them outright. As the article notes, the NRA has lobbied against measures that would protect children without penalizing responsible gun owners.

I'll take that first bit as sarcasm, or, if not, as coming from a totally different philosophy of governance than mine. I still think the government should stick to defense, infrastructure, and education. Less so health and welfare - if they're doing the first three well.

Be that as it may, I'm curious to know why you think that the current approach is "anything goes." Everyone still has to go through the current DOJ/State background check, and certain firearms are just not permitted for private ownership in the US.

I'd love to hear a solution (other than a ban) that would actually screen out irresponsible parents. There is no test for that, at least that I can think of.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 9:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Have a memorial for the children killed by guns that day, on every channel, every day.

As long as there's an identical memorial for kids killed by DUI/DWI drivers every day.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 11:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes, that would be good, and would make the point that we need sensible controls for guns even more obvious.

Seeing 11-12 gun deaths compared to 3-4 DUI deaths on a daily basis would make the point irrefutably, and maybe we could make some progress in making guns safer, just as we have done with automobiles and auto drivers.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 12:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why not bring more statistics to bear on this topic? Check out the section on deaths by "unintentional injury" on the table at the bottom of the page: Link.

Here you can see that accidental death by firearm is low compared with many other types of accidental death, as other posters have pointed out (this table goes all the way up to age 19, though, and I don't know the stats for  younger cut-off ages).

As with most gun control arguments, we need to look at the raw statistics to see if they back up the claims and emotional cries of those pushing for gun control .

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 12:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If irresponsible people didn't reproduce, far few children would die accidentally.

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(wwwest @ Oct. 01 2013, 9:54 pm)
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Yes, that would be good, and would make the point that we need sensible controls for guns even more obvious.

Seeing 11-12 gun deaths compared to 3-4 DUI deaths on a daily basis would make the point irrefutably, and maybe we could make some progress in making guns safer, just as we have done with automobiles and auto drivers.

Lots of lying from the antis. One virulent anti-gun site claims:
QUOTE
USA: 18,270 Children and teens killed or injured by guns each year


While the CDC reports:
QUOTE
that for 2010 (the latest year available), one single six-year old died from a gunshot. For all children younger than 10, there were 36 accidental gun deaths, and that is out of 41 million children. Perhaps most important, about two-thirds of these accidental gun deaths involving young children are not shots fired by other little kids but rather by adult males with criminal backgrounds. In other words, unless you send your child to play at a criminal’s home, she is exceedingly unlikely to get shot.

Indeed, if you are going to worry about your child’s safety you should check into other, perhaps less obvious dangers lurking in the playmate’s house: swimming pools, bathtubs, water buckets, bicycles, and chemicals and medications that can cause fatal poisoning. Drownings alone claimed 609 deaths; fires, 262 lives; poisonings, 54 lives. And don’t forget to ask about the playmate’s parents’ car and their driving records if your child will ride with them: After all, motor-vehicle accidents killed 923 children younger than 10.


QUOTE
Of the 1,210 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2010, 211 (17%) involved an alcohol-impaired driver.1
Of the 211 child passengers ages 14 and younger who died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes in 2010, over half (131) were riding in the vehicle with the alcohol-impaired driver.1


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(Ecocentric @ Oct. 01 2013, 9:59 pm)
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If irresponsible people didn't reproduce, far few children would die accidentally.

Exactly!! I just don't think it is the government's job to protect you, or your children, from parental stupidity.

Intentional harm, sure, but stupidity? Almost impossible.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 9:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 02 2013, 10:40 am)
QUOTE

(wwwest @ Oct. 01 2013, 9:54 pm)
QUOTE
Yes, that would be good, and would make the point that we need sensible controls for guns even more obvious.

Seeing 11-12 gun deaths compared to 3-4 DUI deaths on a daily basis would make the point irrefutably, and maybe we could make some progress in making guns safer, just as we have done with automobiles and auto drivers.

Lots of lying from the antis. One virulent anti-gun site claims:
QUOTE
USA: 18,270 Children and teens killed or injured by guns each year


While the CDC reports:
QUOTE
that for 2010 (the latest year available), one single six-year old died from a gunshot. For all children younger than 10, there were 36 accidental gun deaths, and that is out of 41 million children. Perhaps most important, about two-thirds of these accidental gun deaths involving young children are not shots fired by other little kids but rather by adult males with criminal backgrounds. In other words, unless you send your child to play at a criminal’s home, she is exceedingly unlikely to get shot.

Indeed, if you are going to worry about your child’s safety you should check into other, perhaps less obvious dangers lurking in the playmate’s house: swimming pools, bathtubs, water buckets, bicycles, and chemicals and medications that can cause fatal poisoning. Drownings alone claimed 609 deaths; fires, 262 lives; poisonings, 54 lives. And don’t forget to ask about the playmate’s parents’ car and their driving records if your child will ride with them: After all, motor-vehicle accidents killed 923 children younger than 10.


QUOTE
Of the 1,210 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2010, 211 (17%) involved an alcohol-impaired driver.1
Of the 211 child passengers ages 14 and younger who died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes in 2010, over half (131) were riding in the vehicle with the alcohol-impaired driver.1

You did not read the article did you??

That descrepancy and the pressure to avoid reporting childrens death from guns in common sense terms was the whole point.

And you are one of those people who think that children who commit suicide by gun make up one of the categories that should not be reported as "gun deaths".  

Go figure.

I want to see the nightly news memorial showing every American child death by gun, for every day.  Gonna try to get some support behind that.

If it bleeds, it leads.

Right?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I did read the article. I just want equal time for a 100% preventable cause. Jail those DUI/DWI bastards for 1st degree murder if they kill anyone and for attempted premeditated murder even if they don't.

QUOTE
And you are one of those people who think that children who commit suicide by gun make up one of the categories that should not be reported as "gun deaths".  

Wrong. I oppose reporting suicides as accidental/unavoidable deaths.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wwwest, your OP featured an article about accidental gun deaths, and now you're talking about gun suicide. You're all over the place. You want every gun suicide of a child reported on the national news. What about the 2/3 of child suicides that are carried out by other means? You don't seem to care much about them. You simply hate guns.

The article reported that accidental gun deaths of children are under reported. Even if you double the reported deaths to account for this, it is still a sliver of the pie. And how are any statistics gathered on other types of accidental deaths of children, if the death certificates are not a matter of public record as the article states?

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I llike guns, when they are safe.

I hate guns when they are used irresponsibly and criminally, even when gross negligence is involved.

And I fervently want to see all guns made more safe, and more sane, before I die.

There is absolutely no reason for military style weapons in American homes, other than the ego fantasies of the gun nuts who have them.  

Well, there might be the folks who want a really big substitute for their own little wee wee, but that's a different situation, neh?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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There is absolutely no reason for military style weapons in American homes, other than the ego fantasies of the gun nuts who have them.

There's absolutely no reason for drinking alcohol either.

The point being there are lots of things that people want and don't NEED but have anyway. Why should your bias restrict gun owners any more than mine against alcohol should restrict drinkers? Hell, guns actually benefit society in many ways. Alcohol has NO redeeming factors. Oh... well... OK. It does get ugly people laid.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'll take your word for that!  The voice of experience.

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Montanalonewolf Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 10:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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BillBab Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 8:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Oct. 01 2013, 10:41 am)
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Let's forget the children killed by, and in, cars.  Or poisoning.  Or any other way the children, and people, die accidentally every day  Let's just focus on guns.

Drowning....when will we outlaw buckets and pools?

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 8:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Oct. 02 2013, 10:33 pm)
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I llike guns, when they are safe.

I hate guns when they are used irresponsibly and criminally, even when gross negligence is involved.

And I fervently want to see all guns made more safe, and more sane, before I die.

There is absolutely no reason for military style weapons in American homes, other than the ego fantasies of the gun nuts who have them.  

Well, there might be the folks who want a really big substitute for their own little wee wee, but that's a different situation, neh?

All guns (in good working condition) are safe

Nothing short of actually pulling the trigger will make a modern firearm go bang.

In short, it take a conscious act to make them fire

Not all people are safe, but blaming guns for personal irresponsibility is simplistic at best

As a wise person once said....There are Gun-Nuts  and there are idiots that own firearms....not everyone belongs to both groups

If you do not feel that you are skilled enough or responsible enough to own firearms then by all means do not get one....or get the training you need to be proficient

But you can take your "there is no use for that gun" BS and stick it somewhere where it will not annoy the adults

Nobody put you in charge....thank goodness  :)

Unless you move to Switzerland you will not be required to posses a military STYLE weapon

Telling other folks what they need makes you sound like some old fart who needs the nurse to come change his diaper  :laugh:

The ultimate fantasy world is the one where weapons are not dangerous....and in that world they would likely be more dangerous because the idiots would take them even less seriously


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

With all due respect to LB, TDale, etc., I do not believe one person here has ever suggested automobiles or posion should not be HEAVILY regulated. Given our national disgrace on this issue and that the explicit purpose of guns is to have the ability to injure or kill why do folks like you suggest/imply guns should not be far more heavily regulated than they are now?  

The blood of these children is without question to a large degree on the hands of the NRA and ANYONE that suggest guns should not be as heavily regulated as autos, poison, etc., already are; PERIOD.


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