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Topic: Republican moderates hold key to ending government, Shutdown< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:20 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Reality seems to be seeping into the Republican ranks in the House.  The Tea Hatters will have to kidnap and sequester the moderates or their grand strategy is going to fall apart, IMO.

For most of the last two decades, Republicans such as Rep. Patrick Meehan, who represents a politically competitive district near Philadelphia, have been the odd men out in a House caucus dominated by conservatives such as those aligned with the tea party.

But with Congress' deadlock resulting in the first government shutdown in more than 17 years, Meehan and like-minded colleagues may be the ones who decide how — and when — the standoff ends.

"This whole Congress has been on Cruz control for the last two or three weeks," said Meehan, referring to Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas), a tea party favorite. "To a certain extent, you have to let some air out of the balloon."

No matter how legislative standoffs start, they almost always end the same way: One side or the other suffers defections that force its leadership to back down. In any such fight, each side tries to find fault lines in the other's support and see whether pressure can break those fissures open.


http://www.latimes.com/nation....7.story


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

At this point I want the pressure to build and build and build until they get blown up just in time to reasonably resolve the one that terrifies me: the debt ceiling. Some intermediate kick the can fix that leaves a vestige of TEA to lie in wait for that vote I do not want.

Hastert himself has given Boehner his out by denying that "rule" was ever actually a thing for him, but I only want it used to fully resolve the debt ceiling and not dissipate an iota of energy needed for that on the shorter term shutdown issue.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
At this point I want the pressure to build and build and build until they get blown up just in time to reasonably resolve the one that terrifies me: the debt ceiling. Some intermediate kick the can fix that leaves a vestige of TEA to lie in wait for that vote I do not want.

Hastert himself has given Boehner his out by denying that "rule" was ever actually a thing for him, but I only want it used to fully resolve the debt ceiling and not dissipate an iota of energy needed for that on the shorter term shutdown issue.

I'm sort of hoping the President takes unilateral (14th Amendment) action on the debt ceiling*, and as a result the Republicans try to impeach him. If they did that, 2014 elections would be Christmas in November for the Democrats.



*Yeah, I know he's said he won't do this. A man can dream.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 03 2013, 1:45 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
At this point I want the pressure to build and build and build until they get blown up just in time to reasonably resolve the one that terrifies me: the debt ceiling. Some intermediate kick the can fix that leaves a vestige of TEA to lie in wait for that vote I do not want.

Hastert himself has given Boehner his out by denying that "rule" was ever actually a thing for him, but I only want it used to fully resolve the debt ceiling and not dissipate an iota of energy needed for that on the shorter term shutdown issue.

I'm sort of hoping the President takes unilateral (14th Amendment) action on the debt ceiling*, and as a result the Republicans try to impeach him. If they did that, 2014 elections would be Christmas in November for the Democrats.



*Yeah, I know he's said he won't do this. A man can dream.

Or coal in their Christmas stocking :O  I hope he actually does it too. Not sure dems would recover. I'm assuming most moderates would not look kindly on him taking such action.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 2:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:58 am)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 03 2013, 1:45 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
At this point I want the pressure to build and build and build until they get blown up just in time to reasonably resolve the one that terrifies me: the debt ceiling. Some intermediate kick the can fix that leaves a vestige of TEA to lie in wait for that vote I do not want.

Hastert himself has given Boehner his out by denying that "rule" was ever actually a thing for him, but I only want it used to fully resolve the debt ceiling and not dissipate an iota of energy needed for that on the shorter term shutdown issue.

I'm sort of hoping the President takes unilateral (14th Amendment) action on the debt ceiling*, and as a result the Republicans try to impeach him. If they did that, 2014 elections would be Christmas in November for the Democrats.



*Yeah, I know he's said he won't do this. A man can dream.

Or coal in their Christmas stocking :O  I hope he actually does it too. Not sure dems would recover. I'm assuming most moderates would not look kindly on him taking such action.

And this, gentle reader, is why the government is currently shut down: representatives who live in the right-wing infobubble actually think the public is behind them.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 2:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just like they thought the public was with Romney, until after the election was already over!!

Even then, some of them refused to accept that 5 million more American voters wanted Obama than wanted Romney, and Obamacare was a major issue in the election. 62% of the Electoral votes for Obama!

And the Tea Hatters still don't accept the result, they want a do over by extortion.

But that ain't gonna work either.

Losers are losers.  Like always.

What a country!


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 2:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:45 am)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:22 am)
QUOTE
At this point I want the pressure to build and build and build until they get blown up just in time to reasonably resolve the one that terrifies me: the debt ceiling. Some intermediate kick the can fix that leaves a vestige of TEA to lie in wait for that vote I do not want.

Hastert himself has given Boehner his out by denying that "rule" was ever actually a thing for him, but I only want it used to fully resolve the debt ceiling and not dissipate an iota of energy needed for that on the shorter term shutdown issue.

I'm sort of hoping the President takes unilateral (14th Amendment) action on the debt ceiling*, and as a result the Republicans try to impeach him. If they did that, 2014 elections would be Christmas in November for the Democrats.



*Yeah, I know he's said he won't do this. A man can dream.

Absolutely but that's immediately after the debt ceiling has been raised for a substantial time so there's no economic meltdown.

The trouble is would he go for a Constitutional crisis absent an immediately looming catastrophe?

It may come to that, surely the TEA types would cheer us over that cliff and Boehner might make a mistake. My scenario then is the President citing the Constitution directs the Treasury to borrow and finance anyway: that set's up some House Tea's to sue and off to the Supreme Court it goes, much like the line item veto. Meanwhile the full faith and credit get's protected by the Executive Branch.

I just do not see anywhere in the Constitution that Congress get's to choose whether the United States pays it's legally obligated bills: once past the appropriations and legislative process regarding taxes and spending the paying is Constitutionally mandatory it seems to me and that certainly includes financing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 9:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 03 2013, 1:45 pm)
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I'm sort of hoping the President takes unilateral (14th Amendment) action on the debt ceiling

Maybe he will.  After all he regrets voting against raising the debt ceiling when he was a senator in 2006.  I'm sure many of you dems were praising him for that vote however.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 10:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And I thought y'all thought democracy was the ultimate.  Seems not so.

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(TDale @ Oct. 03 2013, 10:31 pm)
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And I thought y'all thought democracy was the ultimate.  Seems not so.

No, no, once again you seem to be missing the main point of the position of many posters here.

Personally I think that democracy is the most messy, frustrating, inefficient, slow, erratic and selfish form of government on this planet, really terrible, until compared to all the other forms of human government.


Then, it turns out to be the best of the lot, but still tremendously trying on the average citizen living in the democracy, and remember we have the best of the democratic forms, a democractic Republic which mitigates some of the worst aspects of democracy.

We just need to get our act together and begin behaving as if our government is critically important for all of us.

I think that President Obama and the Senate Democrats are pushing us toward a good solution, and the moderate House Republicans will eventually see that extortion of the nation does not work.

Then we will move on to the next frustrating crisis, and solve that one too.  YMMV


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The Tea idiots just don't get it.  I don't know where all this talk about the public not wanting national health care comes from.  When Obama ran in 2008, national health care was a major tenet of his campaign and he was overwhelmingly elected. The law was passed in Congress. The Supreme Court then ruled it entirely legal and constitutional.  In 2012 Obama was re-elected by a substantial margin thereby giving tactical approval by the public to national health care.  The far rights tactics simply seem to be the same tired old strategy that if we say it enough and loud enough, people will believe it. Sadly, many fall for this childish gimmick.  Let them continue.  Cruz an his like are becoming less and less relevant.  In a short time, they will be merely absurd, if they aren't already.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 12:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I often wonder how all you dems would act if there was a republican in the White House.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It wouldn't be the end of the world, just something we had to live through.  We suffered through the last imbecile from the R's, and we will manage somehow through the next one from them also.

Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  I find it abhorrent that their behavior has come to this, and I hope the D's never imitate them.  To think that they have brought to vote 42 times, a law they know they do not have the votes to pass in the Senate, or the President that would sign it into law.  Total waste of time and the Federal $.  


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What the R's cannot do through normal legislative means they are attempting to do by leveraging the consequences of government shutdown and default on debt.

THAT is orders of magnitude more appalling than holding 42 futile votes.

They are attempting to dictate through coercion what the results of citizens voting in elections have not mandated them to do.

Making any kind of concession to those tactics would be a colossal mistake, ceding power to a radical minority and inviting endless repetition of showdowns with potentially catastrophic consequences.

If the Republican Party really wants to gut government services while further lowering taxes on the wealthy, let them make their case to the voting public and win the next election on that platform.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 8:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nervous Ninnies = Libbies



:laugh:


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(ol-zeke @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm)
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Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  

Completely agree. Thank goodness.   :p
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sounds like the political version of "good cop bad cop"
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm)
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Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  

Completely agree. Thank goodness.   :p

as in, it's about time republicans kicked it up a notch.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:13 pm)
QUOTE

(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm)
QUOTE
Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  

Completely agree. Thank goodness.   :p

as in, it's about time republicans kicked it up a notch.

Excellent position, 01, very well reasoned and effective for the American people.

Here is an example of what the Republican Shutdown has done for us already:

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans' confidence in the U.S. economy has dropped sharply as the partial government shutdown caused by Congress' inability to pass a spending bill has become reality. Gallup's Economic Confidence Index's three-day rolling average stands at -34 for Oct. 1-3, down 14 points from Sept. 27-29, and the lowest such average since December 2011.

Economic confidence had already been dropping prior to this week's official shutdown, with a slide to -19 for the month of September, compared with -13 in August. But a significantly sharper decline in confidence has been evident over the past three days just as the government partially closed down -- leading to the current -34 three-day average.

From a broader perspective, economic confidence reached its five-year nadir in late 2008 and early 2009. Confidence improved later in 2009, 2010, and early 2011, but fell sharply again in the summer of 2011, when the nation faced a looming crisis over the possibility of default. That situation was solved only at the last minute on Aug. 2 of that year with a congressional agreement signed into law by President Barack Obama. The U.S. government faces a similar debt ceiling deadline on Oct. 17. The Treasury Department this week released a report on the potential impact of a prolonged debt ceiling debate that raises the prospect of a default on the debt, highlighting the sharp drop in consumer confidence during such a debate in 2011. The current drop in confidence appears to be following the same pattern.


http://www.gallup.com/poll....ns.aspx

The Party of NO is taking the art of slow learning below the known bottom, kinda like the whole group has rapidly progressing dementia!

What a suicidal political party!

01, what can the Pubbies do to make things worse now??


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(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:13 pm)
QUOTE

(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm)
QUOTE
Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  

Completely agree. Thank goodness.   :p

as in, it's about time republicans kicked it up a notch.

Serious question: why do you hate America?

If you didn't hate America, you wouldn't be so enthusiastic about actions that cause it harm.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Recently heard this definition of the Tea Party:

They profess to love America, but they hate most of the people in it.


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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 05 2013, 12:48 pm)
QUOTE

(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:13 pm)
QUOTE

(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:02 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:21 pm)
QUOTE
Gridlock is not always a bad thing, but this current team of Obstructionists has taken it to another level.  

Completely agree. Thank goodness.   :p

as in, it's about time republicans kicked it up a notch.

Serious question: why do you hate America?

If you didn't hate America, you wouldn't be so enthusiastic about actions that cause it harm.

Dumbest thing I ever heard.  We might differ on which way want our country to go, it certainly  doesn't mean either of us hate America.  I really wouldn't expect anything less from you at this point.  You D's keep thinking your winning and polls seem to support that.  However, the longer this goes on the American people will hold both parties accountable.
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(Hiker01 @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:17 pm)
QUOTE
We might differ on which way want our country to go, it certainly  doesn't mean either of us hate America.  I really wouldn't expect anything less from you at this point.  You D's keep thinking your winning and polls seem to support that.  However, the longer this goes on the American people will hold both parties accountable.

Sadly, no. Rooting for a shutdown of the Federal government isn't "differ[ing] on which way we want our country to go"; it's endorsing economic sabotage.

Had you simply argued for achieving your goals through normal democratic processes (and if you had the balls to condemn what the Suicide Caucus and the rest of the Congressional Republicans are doing), I wouldn't have said what I did. Given what you actually said, there was no way not to arrive at that conclusion.


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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 06 2013, 10:14 am)
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Had you simply argued for achieving your goals through normal democratic processes (and if you had the balls to condemn what the Suicide Caucus and the rest of the Congressional Republicans are doing)

Exactly!  What so many people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge, is that the current Republican strategy in the Congress is not the way the legislative process is designed to work.  They are trying to recoup their losses on an issue - the Affordable Health Care Act - that has been settled via the regular democratic legislative process.  The issue was introduced, fully debated and voted on.  The conservatives lost.  Now, because of that and because of their inability to accept the regular legislative process, they are taking action completely unrelated to the issue, that is shutting down the government simply because they lost and can't get their way.  Really, is that the way we want the government to work?  Every time a side loses a vote on an important issue, they simply refuse to fund the government. Reminds me so much of the little boy who is losing the game so he throws a fit and takes the ball and goes home.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(hikerjer @ Oct. 06 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 06 2013, 10:14 am)
QUOTE
Had you simply argued for achieving your goals through normal democratic processes (and if you had the balls to condemn what the Suicide Caucus and the rest of the Congressional Republicans are doing)

Exactly!  What so many people don't understand or refuse to acknowledge, is that the current Republican strategy in the Congress is not the way the legislative process is designed to work.  They are trying to recoup their losses on an issue - the Affordable Health Care Act - that has been settled via the regular democratic legislative process.  The issue was introduced, fully debated and voted on.  The conservatives lost.  Now, because of that and because of their inability to accept the regular legislative process, they are taking action completely unrelated to the issue, that is shutting down the government simply because they lost and can't get their way.  Really, is that the way we want the government to work?  Every time a side loses a vote on an important issue, they simply refuse to fund the government. Reminds me so much of the little boy who is losing the game so he throws a fit and takes the ball and goes home.

Yup, exactly.

There's a reason I have that Lincoln quote in my sig line. Republicans are the "Rule or Ruin" caucus.


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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 06 2013, 5:11 pm)
QUOTE
There's a reason I have that Lincoln quote in my sig line. Republicans are the "Rule or Ruin" caucus.

I get it.  Ted Cruz, Rand Paul and the rest.  John C. Calhoun would have been proud of them.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 7:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I hope you limbs keep up the cheering.  We will see what happens.  It sounds like you believe the republicans in congress all hate America.  How stupid!
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 8:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not so much hate America as that they care about their own self-interest and power above anything else.
Of course that attitude is not unique to the Republican party but this attitude seems to be especially true about
today's Republican party.

Of course one could argue that such an attitude really is hating America


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 8:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

And let me guess DTM the dems are the party for the people.
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