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Topic: Replace ObamaCare?, With What?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 8:53 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Current system good enough? If not, how would you tweak/replace it?

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Medicare for all with means testing for all.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Single payer, universal healthcare.  I'd pay for part of it by making all employers who are currently paying for insurance pay that same $ to the feds for this plan.  Increase taxes on alcohol and tobacco products to pay for the damages they do.  Legalize and tax pot the same as alcohol and tobacco.  

As for the tweaks, I'd have the health insurance cover mental health treatments, all forms of birth control, abortions up to the 24th week, but not cosmetic surgery unless it could be shown it was in the interest of the patient's mental health.  Enlargements, no.  Reductions, yes.  New nose, or such, depends on the mental effects of the existing condition.

MRIs and other such machinery would be used less, and none in Drs offices.  Lasik would be a patient responsibility, but glasses or contacts would be covered.  Dental care would be paid for.

There is no need for this nation to not have the best care for all of it's citizens.  I understand there would need to be some sort of upper limit on expenses, so the possibility of someone being told we will pay for no further treatment still exists, but no different than it is today.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

On planet Teaparty, the best solution is to eliminate government regulation and let the free market reign supreme -- and keep your government hands off my Medicare!!!

In the real world, Medicare for all with means testing for all  makes a lot more sense.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Universal healthcare should pay for abortions up to 24 weeks?  Ol Zeke, should there be any limitations at all?  

No one should be denied insurance for pre existing condition.  I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses.  Prior to this massive bill I believe there were opportunity for compromise, the administration decided to go a little to far.  Maybe, we should keep our kids on our health insurance plan until their 40 :p
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Medicare for all WITHOUT means testing.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 10:19 am)
QUOTE
Universal healthcare should pay for abortions up to 24 weeks?  Ol Zeke, should there be any limitations at all?  

Not in my own version.  The OP asked what we thought.  I answered.  IMO, if we are seeking Universal care, with a Single Payer, we need to pay for abortions so we do not have to pay for births.  Fiscal Conservatism.  In reality, I am all for Women's Reproductive Rights and paying for birth control and abortions just seems the right thing to do.  I only set 24 weeks as the upper limit, unless serious health issues with the fetus or the mother was involved, because I figured 28 weeks would set off too many religious folks.

Perhaps you were asking if I would set a limit on the number of abortions per patient?  Nope.  I would hope that free and easy access to BC would solve most of the abortions to begin with, but sometimes stuff happens anyway. 


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 10:19 am)
QUOTE
Universal healthcare should pay for abortions up to 24 weeks?  Ol Zeke, should there be any limitations at all?  

No one should be denied insurance for pre existing condition.  I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses.  Prior to this massive bill I believe there were opportunity for compromise, the administration decided to go a little to far.  Maybe, we should keep our kids on our health insurance plan until their 40 :p

Perhaps I'm wrong but as I remember the President, Administration, and leading Congressional Democrats were the ones that had to compromise to a degree to get the few Republican votes they needed to overide Minority stalling tactics and why we don't have single payer. The insurance industry making the money they are with these exchanges was never in the better interest of ordinary Americans but what the Democrats had to do to get passage.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

single payer basic benefits for everyone covered by taxes on tobacco, alcohol, legalized weed and unhealthy foods. Employer backed plans would be dissolved with the majority of funds diverted to employee pay.

I would encourage more MRIs. The reason they are so expensive is the control over their use and numbers by the state keeping the costs inflated.

Early detection, free screenings, better access to health care in elementary schools.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 10:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 04 2013, 7:19 am)
QUOTE
Universal healthcare should pay for abortions up to 24 weeks?  Ol Zeke, should there be any limitations at all?  

No one should be denied insurance for pre existing condition.  I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses.  Prior to this massive bill I believe there were opportunity for compromise, the administration decided to go a little to far.  Maybe, we should keep our kids on our health insurance plan until their 40 :p

The "massive bill" equated to roughly 5% of what is spent on healthcare in the United States in any given year and hardly addressed issues of the quality of care or it's actual cost at all: saving those huge issues for future efforts.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 11:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Oct. 04 2013, 6:53 am)
QUOTE
Current system good enough? If not, how would you tweak/replace it?

The official Republican counterproposal 2 wks ago keeps the high risk pools and the ability to switch insurers with pre-existing conditions, the most expensive parts of the ACA.. so any tweaking needs to be done with those in mind.

Eliminate the 11k floor for subsidies so those in the O-care gap (there are a couple .. CNN's Dr Gupta on the O-care gap) can choose to get covered wherever they move.  Revamp the bronze plan towards something like traditional health insurance - the low premiums lure people in but those copays/deductibles are pretty high for low income types.  To entice Republicans to go along, offer to substantially reduce Medicaid - if almost everyone has coverage, why have Medicaid? - and the desk jobs that go with it.  Maybe a tax credit for a % of premiums.

It may become so destabilized that politicians are forced to go with Medicare for all.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 11:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The one thing that became painfully clear to me as I learned more about healthcare policy is that there is no magic bullet. It's just too big and complex a problem--not even one problem at all, really, but a lot of separate but interrelated problems that add up to the huge problem of healthcare spending--for any approach that targets just one aspect of the system to do much of any good at all.

Cash vouchers won't solve it. HSAs won't solve it. Selling insurance across state lines won't solve it. A public option won't solve it. A really well-designed single-payer system might be great, but "single-payer" in itself isn't a cure-all. There is no cure-all.

Which is why it's nonsense to say the PPACA "goes too far". A more limited healthcare reform (guaranteeing access for people with pre-existing conditions, e.g.) really would have been guaranteed to fail. What the PPACA does is take a first step at addressing problems across the board (access, affordability, overall spending, quality of care, etc.); it's not a comprehensive solution to any of them, but it reflects a recognition that they all have to be addressed together.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 11:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

Remove state and federal imposed minimum mandatory coverage's

Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.

The feds are firmly ensconced in both education and healthcare and those two areas are seeing costs spiral out of control well in excess of the rate of inflation.

Coincidence???  I don't think so


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:19 am)
QUOTE
Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.

Just so you notice, those two statements you made contradict each other, ... not that I necessarily blame you.  

Everyone has their own angle when it comes to healthcare but the outlays (projected $20 trillion in the next couple decades - had the source in an old TPA post) are going to be pretty staggering as the population ages and becomes even more unhealthy.  Something else to keep in mind.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 11:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 04 2013, 11:19 am)
QUOTE
Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

Remove state and federal imposed minimum mandatory coverage's

Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.

The feds are firmly ensconced in both education and healthcare and those two areas are seeing costs spiral out of control well in excess of the rate of inflation.

Coincidence???  I don't think so

Good ideas.

I'd suggest that many people who become unemployed need health care at a time when they simply cannot afford it.

Tie healthcare, i.e medicare/medicade to unemployment benefits.  If you qualify and are drawing unemployment you're also covered...


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 12:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(SW Mtn backpacker @ Oct. 04 2013, 8:00 am)
QUOTE
Eliminate the 11k floor for subsidies so those in the O-care gap (there are a couple .. CNN's Dr Gupta on the O-care gap) can choose to get covered wherever they move.  

Strictly speaking, it's not an "Obamacare coverage gap"; it's a Republican governor coverage gap. (Created, of course, by the Supreme Court.)

Credit where credit is due, after all.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 04 2013, 8:19 am)
QUOTE
Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

Remove state and federal imposed minimum mandatory coverage's

Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.

The feds are firmly ensconced in both education and healthcare and those two areas are seeing costs spiral out of control well in excess of the rate of inflation.

Coincidence???  I don't think so

So, a race to the bottom in which insurance companies can all operate out of the state with the least regulation (meaning no protection for consumers) and earn windfall profits by offering crappy insurance they have no intention of paying out on to a cherry-picked pool of healthy individuals (because the sick people all get offloaded onto Medicaid)?

It's genius, I tells ya! GENIUS!


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 12:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes indeed, typical Tea Hat genius!

What is wrong with Kansas??


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 04 2013, 11:19 am)
QUOTE
Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

Remove state and federal imposed minimum mandatory coverage's

Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.

The feds are firmly ensconced in both education and healthcare and those two areas are seeing costs spiral out of control well in excess of the rate of inflation.

Coincidence???  I don't think so

Bill, I am a fiscal conservative.  I understand the uninsured folk (50+ million?) ultimately cost  a lot of extra money in both direct and indirect ways.

How much of an impact do your believe your suggestions would have on the number of uninsured???

Would you repeal Medicare (no sarcasm intended)?. i.e., what is the difference in helping folk who are too poor versus too old to pay for insurance?.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 1:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

billbab said
QUOTE

Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.


The ACA already has a version of this


(1) "Let families and businesses buy health insurance across state lines." This is a long-running debate
between liberals and conservatives. Currently, states regulate insurers. Liberals feel that's too weak and
allows for too much variation, and they want federal regulation of insurers. Conservatives feel that states
over-regulate insurers, and they want insurers to be able to cluster in the state with the least regulation
and offer policies nationwide, much as credit card companies do today.

To the surprise and dismay of many liberals, the Senate health-care bill included a compromise with the
conservative vision for insurance regulation. The relevant policy is in Section 1333, which allows the
formation of interstate compacts. Under this provision, Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, Utah, and Idaho (for
instance) could agree to allow insurers based in any of those states to sell plans in all of them. This
prevents a race to the bottom, as Idaho has to be comfortable with Arizona's regulations, and the policies
have to have a minimum level of benefits (something that even Rep. Paul Ryan believes), but it's a lot
closer to the conservative ideal.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-kl....ar.html

But why it isn't a good idea or at least the way conservative Republicans like BillBab advocate it
and here is why


Conservatives want the opposite: They want insurers to be able to cluster in one state, follow that state's
regulations and sell the product to everyone in the country. In practice, that means we will have a single
national insurance standard. But that standard will be decided by South Dakota. Or, if South Dakota doesn't
give the insurers the freedom they want, it'll be decided by Wyoming. Or whoever.

This is exactly what happened in the credit card industry, which is regulated in accordance with conservative
wishes. In 1980, Bill Janklow, the governor of South Dakota, made a deal with Citibank: If Citibank would
move its credit card business to South Dakota, the governor would literally let Citibank write South Dakota's
credit card regulations. You can read Janklow's recollections of the pact here.

Citibank wrote an absurdly pro-credit card law, the legislature passed it, and soon all the credit card
companies were heading to South Dakota. And that's exactly what would happen with health-care insurance.
The industry would put its money into buying the legislature of a small, conservative, economically depressed
state. The deal would be simple: Let us write the regulations and we'll bring thousands of jobs and lots of
tax dollars to you. Someone will take it. The result will be an uncommonly tiny legislature in an uncommonly
small state that answers to an uncommonly conservative electorate that will decide what insurance will look
like for the rest of the nation.

As it happens, the Congressional Budget Office looked at a bill along these lines back in 2005. They found
that the legislation wouldn't change the number of the uninsured and would save the federal government about
$12 billion between 2007 and 2015. That is to say, it would do very little in the aggregate.

But those top-line numbers hid a more depressing story. The legislation "would reduce the price of individual
health insurance coverage for people expected to have relatively low health care costs, while increasing the
price of coverage for those expected to have relatively high health care costs," CBO said. "Therefore, CBO
expects that there would be an increase in the number of relatively healthy individuals, and a decrease in
the number of individuals expected to have relatively high cost, who buy individual coverage."

That is to say, the legislation would not change the number of insured Americans or save much money, but it
would make insurance more expensive for the sick and cheaper for the healthy, and lead to more healthy people
with insurance and fewer sick people with insurance. It's a great proposal if you don't ever plan to be sick,
and if you don't mind finding out that your insurer doesn't cover your illness. And it's the Republican plan
for health-care reform.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-kl....te.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 1:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I would prefer a single-payer system, to get employers out of the equation and to remove a few layers of paper-shuffling bureaucracy.  We could achieve improvement in the private system in these areas though, through regulation.

With either a public or private system, the key to restoring affordability, sanity, and morality is to tax excessive profits.  

"Non-profit" hospitals are the worst culprits, along with pharmaceutical companies and medical device manufacturers.  For gut-wrenching examples, find the recent Time article called "A Bitter Pill" - they trace the money back and find extraordinary profiteering (like the cancer drug that costs $300 per dose to make, but gets marked up throughout the system to ultimately cost the patient $15,000 per dose).

If our level of profit-taking was accompanied by a commensurate level of quality, I would be OK with it.  But it is not. We are paying far more than other countries, for equivalent or worse levels of quality.  

I'm not against profit at all.  I'm against price gouging that benefits only a tiny elite, while burdening the entire economy and causing financial disaster & untold grief to patients.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 2:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Billbab said
QUOTE

Expand Medicaid to cover folks with expensive pre-existing conditions to at least some extent

The best way to get healthcare to be affordable would be to get government out of healthcare.


as SW Mtn backpacker pointed out those two statements are contradictory(I would say glaringly
so)

Now about this conservative/libertarian fantasy that "The best way to get healthcare to be affordable
would be to get government out of healthcare."

Really? So if that is the case then it should follow that any country where there is more government
involvement in their healthcare system should also have the least affordable healthcare but we know the
exact opposite is true. Here in the US we have far and away the most expensive healthcare system in
the world even accounting for differences in size of population and economy where as in Europe, where
there is more government involvment in healthcare, its considerable more affordable than here in the US.

We also know that private insurance compared to medicare and single payer like systems around the world,
like in canada, have a much lower overhead/administrative costs than private insurance. This should make
sense since private insurance, unlike single payer systems, pay extra overhead on marketing and padding
the pockets of its management.

Also the "free market" is concerned with making a profit which specifically in health care presents
some problems.  I mean the "free market" has an incentive to not insure its most expensive customers.
Here is an example here


Wells Fargo allegedly fired an employee because his dying daughter needed expensive cancer treatment,
according to a lawsuit filed in Palm Beach County Court on Thursday.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012....popular

or as Paul Krugman explains


There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether
you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple
coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can
afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.

This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by
some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making
decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t
just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.

This problem is made worse by the fact that actually paying for your health care is a loss from an
insurers’ point of view — they actually refer to it as “medical costs.” This means both that insurers
try to deny as many claims as possible, and that they try to avoid covering people who are actually
likely to need care. Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance
has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems. And since there’s a widespread sense
that our fellow citizens should get the care we need — not everyone agrees, but most do — this means
that private insurance basically spends a lot of money on socially destructive activities.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009....=0


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't have any real problem with a good healthcare system. What I do have a problem with is being mandated under penalty of law to purchase or provide it.

QUOTE
I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses

Where do you draw the line for hopeless and terminal cases? Particularly since a body can be kept technically alive indefinitely with current medtech.


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(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 04 2013, 5:12 pm)
QUOTE
I don't have any real problem with a good healthcare system. What I do have a problem with is being mandated under penalty of law to purchase or provide it.

QUOTE
I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses

Where do you draw the line for hopeless and terminal cases? Particularly since a body can be kept technically alive indefinitely with current medtech.

I don't disagree with you on limiting expensive procedures for terminally ill patients, given the need to reduce overall costs.

Now, if Obama and the Democrats tried to introduce such a provision, what do you think the chances are that Republicans would start screaming it was proof of death panels?


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TehipiteTom Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 8:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Oct. 04 2013, 4:49 pm)
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(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 04 2013, 5:12 pm)
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I don't have any real problem with a good healthcare system. What I do have a problem with is being mandated under penalty of law to purchase or provide it.

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I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses

Where do you draw the line for hopeless and terminal cases? Particularly since a body can be kept technically alive indefinitely with current medtech.

I don't disagree with you on limiting expensive procedures for terminally ill patients, given the need to reduce overall costs.

Now, if Obama and the Democrats tried to introduce such a provision, what do you think the chances are that Republicans would start screaming it was proof of death panels?

Funny you should ask: free end-of-life counseling (helping people work out what their options are, and what they want for themselves, when faced with a terminal situation) was in the earlier versions of the PPACA. Until, yes, it was demonized as "death panels" by the Teabots. (Who later fixated on the IPAB as their "death panel"...but I digress.) And taken out of the bill.

A good deal of the overall cost of end-of-life treatment is due to the fact that most people don't know or don't make clear to others how or if they want to limit treatment at that point. And in the absence of such instruction, the default mode is to prolong life, or "life" as the case may be. So that end-of-life counseling for everybody would almost certainly have made a modest dent in exactly the costs you guys are talking about.


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Conservatives are the whiniest whiners in the wholy whiny history of whiny-ass whinerdom.
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 Post Number: 26
Dennis The Menace Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 8:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

a couple people mentioned means testing medicare(or medicare for all actually).  I wonder if that could
lead people to look at  medicare the same way as welfare which would then make it more politically difficult
to fund medicare in the long run?

here check this out

http://www.alternet.org/news-am....edicare


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politics is the art of taking advantage of mass stupidity and ignorance
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Bass Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 8:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(jcb @ Oct. 04 2013, 9:39 am)
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single payer basic benefits for everyone covered by taxes on tobacco, alcohol, legalized weed and unhealthy foods. Employer backed plans would be dissolved with the majority of funds diverted to employee pay.

I would encourage more MRIs. The reason they are so expensive is the control over their use and numbers by the state keeping the costs inflated.

Early detection, free screenings, better access to health care in elementary schools.

That's what I think is best too.
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 Post Number: 28
SW Mtn backpacker Search for posts by this member.
Born to hike, forced to work ...
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 9:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Oct. 04 2013, 5:49 pm)
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(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 04 2013, 5:12 pm)
QUOTE
I don't have any real problem with a good healthcare system. What I do have a problem with is being mandated under penalty of law to purchase or provide it.

QUOTE
I also don't think there should be upper limit on expenses

Where do you draw the line for hopeless and terminal cases? Particularly since a body can be kept technically alive indefinitely with current medtech.

I don't disagree with you on limiting expensive procedures for terminally ill patients, given the need to reduce overall costs.

Now, if Obama and the Democrats tried to introduce such a provision, what do you think the chances are that Republicans would start screaming it was proof of death panels?

+2 on this but I think perhaps offering trad Medicare for 10 years - enjoy some retirement 65-75, .... then switching to Vouchercare may be the answer (consider the medical outcomes of the very old are not that good; recovery from one operation is likely to lead to other problems).  If the family or company wants to keep someone alive in their 80's and beyond, that's on their dime (considering what happening in my own family with elderly slowly dying, I'd suggest everyone look into a living will).

Adjust it up or down with the wishes of the newest generations, medical technology, etc..


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Usually Southwest and then some.

In wildness is the preservation of the world. - Henry Thoreau
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wwwest Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hey, SW, what do you think of starting a tour company for the Arctic Ocean, where the over 80's get REALLY cheap fares and a tour of the ice with nice comfy blocks of ice to sit on for a few hours, then box the remains for delivery to the family??

Could be a real money maker addition to your plan, provided of course that global warming doesn't melt all the ice before we can get into operation!  LOL


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"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

- John Kenneth Galbraith
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