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Topic: This seems like a great idea, Should other parks follow< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:00 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lets be bipartisan for a second.  This seems like a really good idea, is there any reason not to allow this to happen.  

http://www.knoxnews.com/news....s-roads
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 2:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sounds like a great idea to me.  Sadly the person who gets to decide (Sec of the Interior) t oallow this is a political appointee.  Since this is a political issue common sense gets waived and so I doubt a decision will be made.  And no decision is a "No" decision.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 8:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Great idea....I still think all these "non-essential" parks and monuments should have their day to day functions privatized.

Not that it will be certain to keep them open when the administration is dead set on creating pain

http://pjmedia.com/tatler....o-close


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 8:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Another article on the issue:

Mayor Wants County To Control Roads During Shutdown

Mayor Mitchell sent a letter to the U.S. Secretary of the Interior Thursday asking her to allow county authorities take over the national park while the federal government is shut down.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some places like GSMNP that could work since it doesn't have much except roadside pulloffs with views but for Yellowstone NP it would seriously reduce an already critical shortage of law officers for the counties it's a part of.
I don't know how many county cops WY and ID have but my county only has about 32 deputies, plus 4-5 state cops, to cover a county of over 2600²mi  (and about 125 miles long N-S) 24/7 . Which means we usually only have around 10-12 on patrol at any given time. Anyone really think we can spare 2-3 of them for YNP? Since YNP is about 90% in WY, it would take a much bigger hit.
That's just the roads. How many to control the many thousands of daily tourists at the hundreds of attractions? Gotta remember a few  hundred full-time rangers can't keep the tourons from doing stupid things like trying to pet grizzlies and bison. What happens when there's literally no control?

And what government entity is going to pay them?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting to watch conservatives on this forum suddenly become "bi-partisan" when the politics they support suddenly work against them.  Conservative backpackers should stay true to their principles and make a habit of avoiding all national, state and county parks. Otherwise they're just hypocrites.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That a boy high gravity.  Simple question, didn't take long.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://m.us.wsj.com/article....o64-wsj
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gosh, where do I start?

MLW is correct, most counties are not set-up, funded or staffed well enough to properly patrol the roads and high use areas, much less the whole park. I would agree, maybe some smaller sites but that leads to a second critical point.

People tend to think of park enforcement as generalized law enforcement. It really isn't, it's more specialized. Can a County Deputy perform a ranger's job? Sure, but to be good at it takes training and experience. Just like you could take a ranger and patrol the county, but get rid of the county enforcement and just throw them in willy-nilly would be a bumpy ride at best. Officers need to be familiar with their jurisdiction and applicable laws to their jurisdiction. The enforcement approach is not identical either. That is not ment as an insult to officers on either side of the fence, it's just reality.

That doesn't even address general operations like maintence, water treatment, and resource management. Do you really think you can hand over say 40,000 acres to someone and say, "Here take care of it?" It would take training and time to get the other group "up to speed" so to speak.

Now long term and philosophically, do I think as a whole our different agencies could do a better job working together? Yes, I totally do. Some regions do a great job, some terrible. But there are several factors there and that is a whole 'nother conversation.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Another thing to point out. Many of these "offers" are made knowing they will be refused and are little more than political posturing. The people proposing this know they don't have the resources immediately at hand and also know hashing out an agreement like that takes a lot of time and planning. Never trust a politician.

QUOTE
On Friday night, Ms. Brewer, Arizona House Speaker Andy Tobin and Arizona Senate President Andy Biggs sent a letter to Mr. Obama asking that he immediately reopen the Grand Canyon, or least make it possible for state and private funding to reopen the park.

A spokesman for the National Park Service said its headquarters hadn't received a "formal offer" to reopen the Grand Canyon, but ruled out the possibility.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, and in Arizona the Republican Governor has asked that the state be allowed to re-open the Grand Canyon

...apparently the notion that local communities may be affected by the government shutdown is sinking in - what a concept...

...so the notion that we should keep our government open for the good of all people wasn't such a bad one after all?...

So why don't these folks spend some time and energy voicing their support for passing a clean CR and getting NP's and other federal lands back open again?


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:16 am)
QUOTE
Great idea....I still think all these "non-essential" parks and monuments should have their day to day functions privatized.

Not that it will be certain to keep them open when the administration is dead set on creating pain

http://pjmedia.com/tatler....o-close

BillBab, This is a side issue and always makes my blood boil when someone brings it up. I have to remind myself this is based on ignorance to what it takes to run a park and also to the unique American history of parks.

Let's start with this. You want to throw out a model for parks that has been part of our American history since before we were a nation. Before the Constitution, before the Revolution, we had public lands and parks.

Fast forward to the creation of our National Parks and Forests, followed directly behind by the creation of State Parks Systems. Follow that with the fact a large portion of the world has copied our model. Why? Because it works.

Can you or should you privatize aspects of parks? Sure. (I note it is often the portion of operations one can make money on and then they ignorantly point to that model as how one should operate, ignoring the fact the operation as a whole is supported by a gov org)

Operating a campground and operating a park are two completely separate things! The park privatization link I followed off your link is bias, disingenuous and downright ignorant.

Also it takes us away from the vision that our parks are for the American people, rich and poor alike. From their website:

QUOTE
Charging market-based use fees.  In this program, private operators charge market-based fees (which must be approved by the USFS) that fully cover their costs AND allow for a payment back to the USFS.


I do not support turning our public lands into private resorts and for-profit theme parks. It's wrong and IMO downright un-American.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To the OP, would I like to see more local orgs. and gov. involved in our federal sites? Yes, but then they also need to put their money where their mouth is, long-term and I doubt most are willing to do that. If they are, I totally support it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The chickens are coming home to roost in the Republican Shutdown.

And the fallout is just beginning make impact, in another week the country will really start going crazy, trying to adapt to an impossible situation.

How long before Boehner allows the House of Representatives to vote on a Clean Bill?

Interesting choice of language, neh?  A "Clean Bill" to end the "Republican Shutdown".

How many dirty bills with they try to push through before facing the need to clean up their act??


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Park concessions ARE "privatized ". All run by corporations.

On the original idea? I prefer the fair and balanced approach: all 401 open along with the rest of the government or they're all closed. Plus it's the usual pathetic local land grab.

Reality bites.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"I do not support turning our public lands into private resorts and for-profit theme parks. It's wrong and IMO downright un-American. "

Couldn't agree more. Public parks are for all the citizenry.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 12:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ever been to the Royal Gorge?

Do so, and learn why it's bad for (what should be) a National Treasure to be basically privatized and/or controlled by the locals.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1

So sadly true.

Floating the river through the gorge is the only way to see it as it should be, and even that is marred by the commercial "improvement".

This is what Arizona capitalists and politicians planned for the Grand Canyon until it was created a National Park, after a very difficulat battle.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 1:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wycanislatrans @ Oct. 05 2013, 11:38 am)
QUOTE

(BillBab @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:16 am)
QUOTE
Great idea....I still think all these "non-essential" parks and monuments should have their day to day functions privatized.

Not that it will be certain to keep them open when the administration is dead set on creating pain

http://pjmedia.com/tatler....o-close

BillBab, This is a side issue and always makes my blood boil when someone brings it up. I have to remind myself this is based on ignorance to what it takes to run a park and also to the unique American history of parks.

Let's start with this. You want to throw out a model for parks that has been part of our American history since before we were a nation. Before the Constitution, before the Revolution, we had public lands and parks.

Fast forward to the creation of our National Parks and Forests, followed directly behind by the creation of State Parks Systems. Follow that with the fact a large portion of the world has copied our model. Why? Because it works.

Can you or should you privatize aspects of parks? Sure. (I note it is often the portion of operations one can make money on and then they ignorantly point to that model as how one should operate, ignoring the fact the operation as a whole is supported by a gov org)

Operating a campground and operating a park are two completely separate things! The park privatization link I followed off your link is bias, disingenuous and downright ignorant.

Also it takes us away from the vision that our parks are for the American people, rich and poor alike. From their website:

QUOTE
Charging market-based use fees.  In this program, private operators charge market-based fees (which must be approved by the USFS) that fully cover their costs AND allow for a payment back to the USFS.


I do not support turning our public lands into private resorts and for-profit theme parks. It's wrong and IMO downright un-American.

Right...because we can outsource top secret security clearances, but there is no way some civilian's can run the gift shop at the Statue of Liberty  :laugh:

Acting like there is no middle ground is silly


Privatizing the day to day operations of parks and monuments would likely save everyone $$$$

What a concept

Of course that would make it harder to justify closing them just to cause political pain

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....he-game

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 05 2013, 10:59 am)
QUOTE
Right...because we can outsource top secret security clearances, but there is no way some civilian's can run the gift shop at the Statue of Liberty  :laugh:

Acting like there is no middle ground is silly


Privatizing the day to day operations of parks and monuments would likely save everyone $$$$

Thing One: "the gift shop at the Statue of Liberty"--i.e., park concessions in general--is already privately operated, under contract to the Federal government.

Thing Two: but of course, that's not what you're really talking about. With your typical dishonesty, you're trying to pass off a radical measure (privatizing "day to day operations" in the parks) as something relatively innocuous.

Thing Three: "market-based use fees" are fundamentally inimcal to the founding philosophy of the National Parks, which is that they should be available to everyone--not just the people who can pay whatever the market will bear. (As it is, Republican-driven defunding of the NPS has already pushed entrance and campground fees above what they should be according to the National Parks philosophy.)

QUOTE
Of course that would make it harder to justify closing them just to cause political pain

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....he-game

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”


So here's another dimwitted wingnut parroting an anonymous "quote" from a story by a guy who has a history of making up quotes. That's 100% win, BillBab, and of course by "100% win" I mean 150% FAIL.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 6:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Oct. 05 2013, 11:59 am)
QUOTE
Right...because we can outsource top secret security clearances, but there is no way some civilian's can run the gift shop at the Statue of Liberty  :laugh:

Acting like there is no middle ground is silly


Privatizing the day to day operations of parks and monuments would likely save everyone $$$$

What a concept

Of course that would make it harder to justify closing them just to cause political pain

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news....he-game

“It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

BillBab,

Tom beat me to most of the points I would make, but let me say first, what does security clearances and the gift shop at the Statue of Liberty have to do with one another? If you laugh, it is as a fool.

Second as Tom said and I said in my post above, privatizing aspects of parks happens, that's nothing new, but that should be decided on a case by case basis and based on facts, not bumper sticker emotional slogans. If you are not going to read please let me know and I will not waste my time.

I would like to know what your idea of middle ground is and also please offer an example of a large and complex park operation that has been successfully privatized to the benefit of the public. One that is not subsidized by a gov. operation. I'll be eagerly waiting.

I also draw issue with how privatizing day to day operations saves everyone money(at least as a universal principle as you are leading to). Again, please give me an example.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 9:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sounds like they aren't being as tough as they were the first few days.  

http://www.wate.com/story....he-view
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(HighGravity @ Oct. 05 2013, 10:16 am)
QUOTE
Interesting to watch conservatives on this forum suddenly become "bi-partisan" when the politics they support suddenly work against them.  Conservative backpackers should stay true to their principles and make a habit of avoiding all national, state and county parks. Otherwise they're just hypocrites.

"Conservative backpackers should stay true to their principles and make a habit of avoiding all national, state and county parks. Otherwise they're just hypocrites."



And tree hugging hippie wannabe libbies should stay true to their so-called eco ways and work for free....................Otherwise they're just hypocrites.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Oct. 05 2013, 9:45 pm)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Oct. 05 2013, 10:16 am)
QUOTE
Interesting to watch conservatives on this forum suddenly become "bi-partisan" when the politics they support suddenly work against them.  Conservative backpackers should stay true to their principles and make a habit of avoiding all national, state and county parks. Otherwise they're just hypocrites.

"Conservative backpackers should stay true to their principles and make a habit of avoiding all national, state and county parks. Otherwise they're just hypocrites."



And tree hugging hippie wannabe libbies should stay true to their so-called eco ways and work for free....................Otherwise they're just hypocrites.

You're just kind of an idiot huh?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hiker01 @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:22 pm)
QUOTE
Sounds like they aren't being as tough as they were the first few days.  

http://www.wate.com/story....he-view

Opening a single parking lot.

Breathtaking.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In addition to the Newfound Gap Parking Area reopening, all the quiet walkway trails and other hiking trails are back open as well, except for the Chimneys hiking trail and Alum Cave trailhead. They remain closed.

Actually a little more.

Breathtaking.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Or:
"Due to the Government Shutdown, other than Newfound Gap Road/US441, the Spur and the Gatlinburg Bypass all GSM National Park roads will be closed to use of any kind by people. The entire length of the Blue Ridge Parkway is remaining open to through traffic only

All Great Smoky Mountains National Park and Blue Ridge Parkway Facilities, Hiking Trails, Picnic Areas, Campgrounds, Lodging, Stores, Food Service and Visitor Centers are closed"

http://www.yoursmokies.com

While given your link has this general status comment "The majority of the park is off limits, like the picnic area, campgrounds and visitors centers."  I expect the closing sentence is about the area surrounding the parking lot?  Seems probable. So: very little more. Nice that people can get out and stretch their legs though I imagine this time of year it's quite pretty even right by the parking lot.

Through roads like run across the north of Yellowstone, Going to the Sun in Glacier, Tioga (SR120) through Yosemite are all a bit of a gray area though since there wouldn't be any maintenance until the shutdown ends any facilities along the roads, including parking lot trash receptacles, would be an issue.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

HSF if you look at post 22 I stated their not being as tough as they were when this first started.   Initially the park had all pull offs closed and all trails were closed.  I heard even a few tickets were given. You can get to plenty of trails NOW along 441 which you couldn't legally just a couple of days ago.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

These people look like a good GSMNP resource.

http://smokiesfriends.wordpress.com/2013....hutdown

5 Things You Can Do While Great Smoky Mountains National Park’s Shutdown

"As you may have heard, due to the government shut-down, Great Smoky Mountains National Park is closed. All recreation activities are suspended. Entrances, trailheads, backcountry, visitor facilities, lodges and campgrounds are closed.

For questions about campground reservations, contact Recreation.gov 888-448-1474; for questions about backcountry campsite and shelter reservations (865) 436-1297.  During the shut-down, Great Smoky Mountains National Park’s website and social media sites will be inactive. Visitors to the park’s website will be redirected to www.doi.gov/shutdown. The Friends of Great Smoky Mountains National Park’s website will not shut down, nor will our Facebook or Twitter accounts. We will post updates on social media as they become available.

Of Great Smoky Mountains National Park’s 326 employees, 279 have been furloughed...."
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 11:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Your a genius HSF.  I didn't even come close to saying everything or near everything is open.  Did I?
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» Quick Reply This seems like a great idea
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