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Topic: Afghanistan - Why are we still there?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 10:31 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
The officials say they, too, would prefer that American troops stay in Afghanistan. But “at the right price,” said a senior European diplomat familiar with the American position. “The price that Mr. Karzai is asking is too high for Obama.”
"Impasse With Afghanistan Raises Prospect of Total U.S. Withdrawal in 2014"
Too high a price?

For what??

Any of you who are repeatedly asking if anyone on the left disagrees with anything Obama does - this is an example of a policy on which I know I completely disagree with Obama. As far as I can see, there is zero reason for us to stay even one day longer in Afghanistan. If the right wants a way to cut expenditures, here you go - this is totally wasted money.

What are we getting out of this deal that’s worth more than $0? Does anyone know? The ability to pursue Al Qaeda? Extra storage space for used military equipment? Profits for private contractors? What?

I fail to see why we haven’t left this godforsaken region long, long ago. Afghanistan is a money pit:
QUOTE
Afghanistan is decades away from self-sufficiency — it currently covers only about 20 percent of its own bills, with the rest paid by the United States and its allies.
Why is this our problem?

I say we leave immediately, and leave nothing behind but the dust stirred by our departure.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 1:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seriously? No one cares about this?

Afghanistan cost us $105.7 billion in 2012, and projections say that figure only shrinks to $85.6 billion in 2013.

With the budget problems we have, why is this not important?

$190 billion is, as I see it, the cost of both 2014 and 2015 and part of 2016 for the ACA.

So, why are we still in Afghanistan? Why does the GOP think we must cut health care but not the Afghanistan war?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 2:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Simple

Because we have a Dem in the WH

War protesting is on hiatus until we elect a real leader!


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 3:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But Obama promised to get us out of Afghanistan by .....when was that?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 4:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Oct. 05 2013, 8:31 am)
QUOTE
...[/quote]Why is this our problem?

I say we leave immediately, and leave nothing behind but the dust stirred by our departure.

It is a tricky country and the last time we up and left, leaving them to Pakistan and the Saudis, it became a terrorist training base.  Having been there, most of the population wants the same things we take for granted but just too many resources went to Iraq; also like Vietnam, after the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan, we were gone, ... they know it - and those people love their history and take it seriously. That's the chief problem compounded by competing tribes and sects. As Bin Laden is dead, not sure our conventional forces need to be there; suspect we will be involved unconventionally forever though.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 4:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Or involved in civilian development.

I'm okay with that sort of assistance.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 5:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 05 2013, 2:47 pm)
QUOTE
But Obama promised to get us out of Afghanistan by .....when was that?

If you're certain Obama actually made that promise, you should be able to come up with a quote (you know, his own words).

If you're really interested, there are actual plans and a draw-down that is currently underway (really not that difficult to find relevant information, if that's what you're interested in):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....anistan


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 5:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I personally think that SW Mtn hits it.  There is no good way to leave the country.  The Taliban will be running the place again in a few years.  I hope we get our intel assets out of there before the Taliban reasserts control and starts rounding up "collaborators".

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 5:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Oct. 05 2013, 12:53 pm)
QUOTE
So, why are we still in Afghanistan? Why does the GOP think we must cut health care but not the Afghanistan war?

Gabby, I think you know the answer to your 2nd question.

As for your first question, President Obama has pretty much followed the policy of candidate Obama. He was highly critical of the Iraq fiasco (which he called a "dumb war" before the invasion was launched) but has been fairly consistent in pointing to Afghanistan as the training ground and refuge of the terrorist organization that attacked us on 9/11.

The situation there steadily deteriorated before Obama took office. Bush had shifted focus and resources to Iraq, and the Taliban steadily regained ground in Afghanistan. There were basically no good options, and Obama tried to salvage the country with a surge of his own. Now it's the tail end of that effort and we are slowly withdrawing.

I'm not saying I agree with Obama's Afghanistan policies; I merely summed up what's transpired.

Personally, I think the whole thing has been a horrible waste. In the wake of 9/11 it might have been possible to set the country straight. The attack on our country was a tragedy but also an opportunity; with sufficient international resources & commitment there may have been a chance for a stable government not run (or overrun) by radical Islamists. Or not. We'll never know, because GW chose the worst option -- don't commit sufficient resources, but stay there anyway.

Whether or not Oabama and his military advisors really thought they could turn things around, I don't know. Nor do I know how much of this was the sunk-cost fallacy (reluctance to give up after so much blood & treasure has been invested). Politics may also have entered the equation. I'm pretty certain Obama would have been a one term president if he decided to "cut and run" right away. Images of the Taliban marching victoriously through the streets of Kubul burning American flags would have played right into the Republican narrative that Democrats can't be trusted in matters of national security.

I think Osama bin Laden must have been pretty pleased at the high price America has paid (and continues to pay) for the invasion of Iraq and playing whack-a-mole in Afghanistan -- the longest war in our nation's history, that ain't quite over yet.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 7:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Oct. 05 2013, 10:31 am)
QUOTE
Why is this our problem?

Beats the hell out of me.  For me as well, this is the biggest disappointment with Obama and the current administration.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 05 2013, 7:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Certainly one of the biggest.

I know it a thorny, multi dimensional international problem, but given how little reward, or direct threat there is for us, it would seem like we could get out faster than we have done.  

Maybe we have to stay long enough to get one generation of Afghani women through university??  The Mullahs will be on the way out then.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:45 pm)
QUOTE
Certainly one of the biggest.

I know it a thorny, multi dimensional international problem, but given how little reward, or direct threat there is for us, it would seem like we could get out faster than we have done.  

Maybe we have to stay long enough to get one generation of Afghani women through university??  The Mullahs will be on the way out then.

I know that at least some of your post is meant to be satirical, but, just supposing that the reason we're staying in Afghanistan is connected to "social reconstruction", I'd have to ask (seriously, now): if we still have military units in Germany, then why? Is Germany requiring "social reconstruction"? I'm doing my best not to appear ridiculously naive here, and, on that subject, I do understand why these installations were there originally, but really! Come on:

US military bases in Germany as of 2008.
  • Anderson Barracks, Dexheim (will reopen)
  • Artillery Kaserne, Garmisch-Partenkirchen
  • Askren Manors Housing Area, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Bamberg Local Training Area, Bamberg (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Barton Barracks, Ansbach
  • Bismarck Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Bleidorn Housing Area, Ansbach
  • Campbell Barracks, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • Gen. Lucius D. Clay Kaserne (former Wiesbaden Army Airfield, renamed 2012),Wiesbaden
  • Coleman Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Conn Barracks, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Dagger Complex, Darmstadt Training Center Griesheim
  • Germersheim Army Depot, Germersheim
  • Grafenwöhr Training Area, Grafenwöhr/Vilseck
  • Hammonds Barracks, Mannheim
  • Heidelberg Army Airfield, Heidelberg
  • Hohenfels Training Area/Joint Multinational Readiness Center, Hohenfels (Upper Palatinate)
  • Husterhoeh Kaserne, Pirmasens
  • Kaiserslautern Military Community
  • Katterbach Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Kelley Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Kleber Kaserne, Kaiserslautern Military Community
  • Lampertheim Training Area, Lampertheim (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, Landstuhl
  • Ledward Barracks, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Mark Twain Village, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • McCully Barracks, Wackernheim
  • Miesau Army Depot, Miesau
  • Nachrichten Kaserne, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Oberdachstetten Storage Area, Ansbach
  • Panzer Kaserne, Stuttgart
  • Patch Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Pulaski Barracks, Kaiserslautern
  • Patrick Henry Village, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Patton Barracks, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Rhein Ordnance Barracks, Kaiserslautern
  • Robinson Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Rose Barracks, Vilseck
  • Rottershausen Storage Area, Schweinfurt
  • Sembach Kaserne, Kaiserslautern
  • Shipton Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Smith Barracks, Baumholder
  • Spinelli Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Storck Barracks, Illesheim
  • Stuttgart Army Airfield, Filderstadt
  • Sullivan Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Tompkins Barracks, Schwetzingen (closed)
  • Storage Station, Mainz-Kastel
  • Warner Barracks, Bamberg (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • USAG Wiesbaden Military Training Area, Mainz, Gonsenheim/Mombach
  • USAG Wiesbaden Training Area, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • USAG Wiesbaden Radar Station, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • Urlas Housing and Shopping Complex, Ansbach (converted from Urlas Training Area in 2010-2011)
  • Yorktown Housing Complex, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)

    Yeah, some of them are closing, and some may have already closed, but this is ridiculous: we need this crap, but we don't need universal health care? Really?
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 06 2013, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    "Afghanistan - Why are we still there? "


    Don't you care about the people?


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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 07 2013, 12:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


    (Gabby @ Oct. 06 2013, 6:12 pm)
    QUOTE

    (wwwest @ Oct. 05 2013, 6:45 pm)
    QUOTE
    Certainly one of the biggest.

    I know it a thorny, multi dimensional international problem, but given how little reward, or direct threat there is for us, it would seem like we could get out faster than we have done.  

    Maybe we have to stay long enough to get one generation of Afghani women through university??  The Mullahs will be on the way out then.

    I know that at least some of your post is meant to be satirical, but, just supposing that the reason we're staying in Afghanistan is connected to "social reconstruction", I'd have to ask (seriously, now): if we still have military units in Germany, then why? Is Germany requiring "social reconstruction"? I'm doing my best not to appear ridiculously naive here, and, on that subject, I do understand why these installations were there originally, but really! Come on:

    US military bases in Germany as of 2008.
  • Anderson Barracks, Dexheim (will reopen)
  • Artillery Kaserne, Garmisch-Partenkirchen
  • Askren Manors Housing Area, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Bamberg Local Training Area, Bamberg (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Barton Barracks, Ansbach
  • Bismarck Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Bleidorn Housing Area, Ansbach
  • Campbell Barracks, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • Gen. Lucius D. Clay Kaserne (former Wiesbaden Army Airfield, renamed 2012),Wiesbaden
  • Coleman Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Conn Barracks, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Dagger Complex, Darmstadt Training Center Griesheim
  • Germersheim Army Depot, Germersheim
  • Grafenwöhr Training Area, Grafenwöhr/Vilseck
  • Hammonds Barracks, Mannheim
  • Heidelberg Army Airfield, Heidelberg
  • Hohenfels Training Area/Joint Multinational Readiness Center, Hohenfels (Upper Palatinate)
  • Husterhoeh Kaserne, Pirmasens
  • Kaiserslautern Military Community
  • Katterbach Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Kelley Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Kleber Kaserne, Kaiserslautern Military Community
  • Lampertheim Training Area, Lampertheim (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, Landstuhl
  • Ledward Barracks, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)
  • Mark Twain Village, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • McCully Barracks, Wackernheim
  • Miesau Army Depot, Miesau
  • Nachrichten Kaserne, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Oberdachstetten Storage Area, Ansbach
  • Panzer Kaserne, Stuttgart
  • Patch Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Pulaski Barracks, Kaiserslautern
  • Patrick Henry Village, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Patton Barracks, Heidelberg (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Rhein Ordnance Barracks, Kaiserslautern
  • Robinson Barracks, Stuttgart
  • Rose Barracks, Vilseck
  • Rottershausen Storage Area, Schweinfurt
  • Sembach Kaserne, Kaiserslautern
  • Shipton Kaserne, Ansbach
  • Smith Barracks, Baumholder
  • Spinelli Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Storck Barracks, Illesheim
  • Stuttgart Army Airfield, Filderstadt
  • Sullivan Barracks, Mannheim (Scheduled to close 2013)
  • Tompkins Barracks, Schwetzingen (closed)
  • Storage Station, Mainz-Kastel
  • Warner Barracks, Bamberg (Scheduled to close 2015)
  • USAG Wiesbaden Military Training Area, Mainz, Gonsenheim/Mombach
  • USAG Wiesbaden Training Area, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • USAG Wiesbaden Radar Station, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • Urlas Housing and Shopping Complex, Ansbach (converted from Urlas Training Area in 2010-2011)
  • Yorktown Housing Complex, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)

    Yeah, some of them are closing, and some may have already closed, but this is ridiculous: we need this crap, but we don't need universal health care? Really?

  • You are comparing two totally different situations, which exist based on two totally different policies.

    You are right, I was being somewhat skeptical and pessimistic about any long term good we can do attempting to change the culture in Afghanistan.  

    We are basically inept and ineffective at changing the culture in America, why we would think we can change Afghanistan is way beyond me.

    Germany is totally different, IMO.  It is our aircraft carrier/tank brigade, anchored against Russia, plus a big economic presence in the midst of Europe.

    Anachronistic now, but one of the most successful strategies ever implimented to avoid WWIII and to tamp down European conflicts of all kinds.

    It will be ending when free trade is truly global and there are selfish checks on all nations to avoid losing another widespread war.  

    Couple more generations, and that one will be over.

    Afghanistan may make it to the 17th Century by then.

    YMMV


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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 08 2013, 9:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


    (wwwest @ Oct. 07 2013, 11:22 am)
    QUOTE

    (Gabby @ Oct. 06 2013, 6:12 pm)
    QUOTE
    ...
    I know that at least some of your post is meant to be satirical, but, just supposing that the reason we're staying in Afghanistan is connected to "social reconstruction", I'd have to ask (seriously, now): if we still have military units in Germany, then why? Is Germany requiring "social reconstruction"? I'm doing my best not to appear ridiculously naive here, and, on that subject, I do understand why these installations were there originally, but really! Come on:

    US military bases in Germany as of 2008.
  • Anderson Barracks, Dexheim (will reopen)
  • Artillery Kaserne, Garmisch-Partenkirchen
  • Askren Manors Housing Area, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)

    -----[long, long illustrative list of U.S. military installations in Germany]-----

  • USAG Wiesbaden Military Training Area, Mainz, Gonsenheim/Mombach
  • USAG Wiesbaden Training Area, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • USAG Wiesbaden Radar Station, Mainz Finthen Airport
  • Urlas Housing and Shopping Complex, Ansbach (converted from Urlas Training Area in 2010-2011)
  • Yorktown Housing Complex, Schweinfurt (scheduled to close 2015)

    Yeah, some of them are closing, and some may have already closed, but this is ridiculous: we need this crap, but we don't need universal health care? Really?

  • ...
    Germany is totally different, IMO.  It is our aircraft carrier/tank brigade, anchored against Russia, plus a big economic presence in the midst of Europe.

    Really? Then how about this:

    Germany is not “totally different”. Not at all.

    I know I’m starting to sound like Ben2World here, but I don’t think a “cold war argument” for our presence in Germany is sufficient. You may, but I don’t. Even if you could make that kind of “justification”, there is simply no rational justification for that entire map. Yeah, you could justify a much smaller presence of ports worldwide to support a worldwide fleet of ships, or a worldwide group of airbases to support a worldwide presence of military aircraft, but what for? How do you actually say that that's necessary at all beyond a mere skeletal presence to support maintenance and refuel, etc.? That’s not “protection against some perceived threat” - it's “creation of empire”, short and simple. It's protection of assets, is what it is. Our expansive "business interests".

    We have quite a few bases in Japan as well. If you can believe that map up there, we seem to have bases bloody everywhere. But don’t trust me, read the DOD’s annual report:
    "DOD Base Structure Report - 2013" (NOTE: PDF)

    So:
    How many German bases, controlled by German forces, are there in the U.S.?
    How many Japanese bases?
    How many Saudi Arabian bases in the U.S.?

    We don’t need to have troops or bases or any kind of presence in Afghanistan at all. If the Taliban returns, we can do exactly what we’re doing in Somalia and Libya. (But I jest.)

    If I’m making the decision between bases in Afghanistan, Germany or anywhere else vs. providing essential infrastructure in the U.S. itself, like health care, I know what my decision would be. I don’t think that’s a “weak foreign policy”, I think it’s policy that backs away from “creating an American empire” and backs away from being the “world police” as a unilateral force. It backs away from the egregious expenditure of tax money for what amounts to bribes to keep our influence artificially alive where it probably shouldn’t be in the first place.

    Stop building McDonalds in Saudi Arabia and protecting them with U.S. troops and hardware, and you probably cease providing at least one reason for the existence of Al Qaeda.

    Hey, if terrorist threats decrease because there are fewer McDonalds franchises in Saudi Arabia (and elsewhere), we could stop building hangars and dry docks in far-flung regions and start building real infrastructure back home.

    But I guess your next argument is that, without the McDonalds franchises in Saudi Arabia (and elsewhere), we would starve here anyway. Well, we would - esp. if we don't do something about the unbelievably skewed distribution of all that cash flowing back from Saudi Arabia - or anywhere, for that matter.

    Sometimes I really believe that this whole "house of cards" empire setup is like some weird cultural "bacterial infection" that mutated from the model of the Greeks, the Romans, the British, etc., etc. We only need to step back far enough to see it.

    Meet ya on that distant planet silently circling a star in the outer reaches of the Milky Way. We'll look back and replay this, and talk about it further.

    Gotta go.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 08 2013, 12:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Good post, with good thinking.

    The comparison to declining empires is well founded, I wish I understood the way we could reverse the course we have taken the last 110 years, but I don't really.  Not in any quick way.

    Maybe the decentralization of the world economy, including the US, allowing individuals to participate in goods and services similar to what we do with Facebook and Twitter will be a way out.

    But I don't really see that way, or understand it.

    What a country!

    Ultimately, our universally distributed atoms won't care!!


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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 08 2013, 3:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    The article from which I extracted that map above, which I was reading early this morning prior to posting the map, had an interesting and illuminating quote on this subject:
    QUOTE
    W.H. Hutt said it best about foreign aid:

    "Foreign aid is taking money from poor people in rich countries and giving it to rich people in poor countries."

    In other words, foreign aid is not about helping the poor in foreign lands, who see very little (if any) of the cash. On the contrary, it's about bribing foreign governments. Payoffs, if you will.

    That is equally true about military installations all over the world, which aren't there for the safety of the American people, but for the safety of McDonald franchises (and others).

    Maybe it would be as difficult to make that argument stick as it would much of the balderdash that is propagated all the time by the right, but it certainly sounds true to me.

    It would certainly account for why the military installations in Germany and elsewhere - literally everywhere - are more important than health care in the U.S. itself.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 8:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    We are in Afghanistan because we fear the Taliban will take over the country and establish another terrorist regime, and haven for Al Qaeda. We would be back to square one. Pre-Sept 11th 2001.

    That's pretty easy to understand no?
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 9:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


    (tamarac @ Oct. 09 2013, 7:17 am)
    QUOTE
    We are in Afghanistan because we fear the Taliban will take over the country and establish another terrorist regime, and haven for Al Qaeda. We would be back to square one. Pre-Sept 11th 2001.

    That's pretty easy to understand no?
    Nope, not "easy to understand". (I have to assume that you're just kidding, of course.)

    If you read my first post, you'd see that Afghanistan still depends on outside funding for 80% of its economy. To fend off the Taliban and other terrorist groups, we'd have to create a vital economy in the country. Given our already magnanimous outlays of funds, you'd think we'd be well on our way, but no.

    Keep in mind that these numbers are in BILLIONS of dollars.
    BILLIONS of dollars:
    2001-2002                  $20.8
    2003                       $14.7
    2004                       $14.5
    2005                       $20.0
    2006                       $19.0
    2007                       $39.2
    2008                       $43.5
    2009                       $59.5
    2010                      $104.9
    2011                      $113.9
    2012                      $105.7
    2013                       $85.6
    Total                     $641.3
    FYI: That's $641,300,000,000 - just so there's no misunderstanding.

    "Infoplease - Estimated War-Related Costs, Iraq and Afghanistan"

    That's just the money.

    If we're spending that much money, surely we're making progress, right?

    Nope.

    Poppy production is at an all time high in Afghanistan, and rising sharply, despite a drug control and trafficking interdiction program that has, according to what I've read, cost something like a quarter of a billion dollars. (See the chart on page 4 of the following report.)
    "Afghanistan: Narcotics and U.S. Policy (PDF)"
    As of 2010, the shift of troops from Iraq to Afghanistan was continuing to result in a sharp increase of presence in the country. (See page 12 of the following report.)
    "The Cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Other Global War on Terror Operations Since 9/11 (PDF)"
    This might have started to reverse in the last 3 years, but I don’t know.

    The point I’m trying to make is that, given the money we’ve already spent, and the miniscule impact all that cash has made, and given the loss of life by all parties in this war, and given our deficit situation, and given, finally, our need for infrastructure improvement at home, what could possibly make anyone think it would be a good idea to stay in this country (or any other, for that matter) even one second longer?

    If Afghanistan can’t keep terrorists from taking over (and they can’t), we can’t – without ruining our own country financially.

    What we’re doing in Afghanistan is not working, and it’s not worth it.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 10:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Of course it's about the money.

    Terrorism will continue to exist as long as there is religion in the world.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 11:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    So because it costs a lot you think it is difficult to understand? America lives in fear and that always trumps money, sorry. Did we have the money to invade Europe in 1944? Of course not, so why did we? Perhaps we were afraid of Hitler taking over the majority of Europe?
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 12:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Afghanistan won't be taking over the majority of anything.  So far they can't even organize a functioning goverment for Afghanistan.

    Kinda like the US these days!   :angry:

    Education, especially for the women, is the only hope that Afghanistan has, and it will probably be a century or two before they get all the tribal conflicts worked out and form a true nation.

    We should get out and encourage them from afar.

    It took Germany about 1000 years to work out their tribal conflicts and form a nation, neh?  

    Afghanistan can probably work it out in less time than that.

    What a species!


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    "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 12:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Now, here's where the fun starts.

    I don't think we should be in any "stans".  If your memories aren't prejudiced, you'll remember that I want to bring all our troops home,  Worldwide.  Defend the country and let the rest of the world F themselves up as they desire.  We have the resources to not need anyone else.  A few years of No US involved should winnow the chaff.


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    "Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 12:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


    (TDale @ Oct. 09 2013, 12:26 pm)
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    Now, here's where the fun starts.

    I don't think we should be in any "stans".  If your memories aren't prejudiced, you'll remember that I want to bring all our troops home,  Worldwide.  Defend the country and let the rest of the world F themselves up as they desire.  We have the resources to not need anyone else.  A few years of No US involved should winnow the chaff.

    Might have worked as a strategy in the 14th Century, although that approach was not so successful for the Native Americans when we invaded.

    The economy is global and if anything proved that local security is global it was 9/11.  You do remember that, don't you??

    All humans on the planet are intedependent now, and have been at least since WWII.

    I'm not saying that we can't do things a lot smarter, and a lot more effectively, but what we can't do is pretend to be isolated.  What we should do is learn how work cooperatively with other people who are quite different from us.

    John Donne said it very well, way back around 1600:

    No Man Is An Island



    No man is an island,
    Entire of itself,
    Every man is a piece of the continent,
    A part of the main.
    If a clod be washed away by the sea,
    Europe is the less.
    As well as if a promontory were.
    As well as if a manor of thy friend's
    Or of thine own were:
    Any man's death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.


    John Donne


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    "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

    - John Kenneth Galbraith
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 1:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Yeah we know Tdale, you would probably want to get out of Stanford. Commie bastards.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 4:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    West, I didn't say become isolationist.  I said bring all the troops home.  Close the bases, bring the troops home, let them figure it out for themselves.  Diplomacy and business can go on as they will.

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    "Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 5:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Are you actually Ron Paul?

    He is unemployed as well.
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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 9:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Gabby is right and Ron Paul sounds a lot like JFK did..

    " What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace - - the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living -- the kind that enables man and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children - - not merely peace for Americans by peace for all men and women - - not merely peace in our time but peace for all time."

    *****

    " To secure these ends, America's weapons are non-provocative, carefully controlled, designed to deter and capable of selective use. Our military forces are committed to peace and disciplines in self-restraint. Our diplomats are instructed to avoid unnecessary irritants and purely rhetorical hostility."  

    http://www1.media.american.edu/speeches/Kennedy.htm

    Read the whole speech if you have time.  He was killed for these crazy ideas and we lost our civilian control of the military.


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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 09 2013, 11:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Well, I disagree on one important point, JFK was killed by one psychotic individual, but the effect was what you describe.

    They were not crazy ideas, they were fundamentally American ideas, and we lost a generation of progress.

    What a country!


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    PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 10 2013, 11:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

    Well, there are tens of millions, maybe more, of Americans who are generally noninterventionists.

    They are characterized by left wing libertarians and liberals.

    Anti-Imperialists if you will.
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