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Topic: Confederate flag was the flag of traitors< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 2:51 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Now, this is my kind of comedian!  Maybe he will replace Bill Maher!

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah, a former attorney, is a political comedian and frequent commentator on various TV networks including CNN. He is the co-director of the new comedy documentary "The Muslims Are Coming!" It was released this month. Follow him on Twitter @deanofcomedy.

(CNN) -- You can debate whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. But the one thing you can't dispute: The Confederate flag was flown by traitors to the United States of America who slaughtered more than 110,000 U.S. soldiers.

I know some will take issue with my calling the Confederacy a band of traitors, but let's be blunt -- that's what they were. They broke from the United States and created their own nation, calling it the Confederate States of America. They issued their own currency, elected their own president and Congress, raised an army and went to war with the United States of America, firing the first shot at Fort Sumter, South Carolina.

What's even more troubling about the so-called Confederate flag we see so often is that it was not the official flag of the Confederacy. It's worse than that. The flag commonly referred to as the Confederate flag was actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Why is that worse? Because this was the flag carried on battlefields by Confederate troops during the Civil War as they killed U.S. soldiers.


http://www.cnn.com/2013....t=hp_t4


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 4:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Civil War....you mean the War of Northern Aggression?

Maybe they were standing on shaky ground morally, but the Southern States had every right so succeed from the Union.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 4:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hmmm... that's how the British view the Stars and Stripes.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 4:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 29 2013, 1:10 pm)
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Civil War....you mean the War of Northern Aggression?

Maybe they were standing on shaky ground morally, but the Southern States had every right so succeed from the Union.

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you on their legal grounds as well:

Oh and also does agree that secession was treason:
CHASE, C.J., Opinion of the Court

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

74 U.S. 700

Texas v. White

ON ORIGINAL BILL

"That board, as we have seen, was organized not for the defence of the State against a foreign invasion or for its protection against domestic violence, within the meaning of these words as used in the National Constitution, but for the purpose, under the name of defence, of levying war against the United States. This purpose was undoubtedly unlawful, for the acts which it contemplated are, within the express definition of the Constitution, treasonable. [p734]:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and [p725] arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. .."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct....ZO.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 5:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

My brother was in Mississippi on a travel writers' gig, and posted photos from the home of "President" Jefferson Davis. I commented that Davis was a "President" like Osama bin Laden was "President" of al Qaeda.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 5:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 29 2013, 2:10 pm)
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Civil War....you mean the War of Northern Aggression?

Maybe they were standing on shaky ground morally, but the Southern States had every right so succeed from the Union.

Every right? Name one, specifically.




<<<<Yankee who thinks the rebels were traitors.  :cool:
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 5:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The victor gets to define the terms with which history regards any battle.  In the case of the Revolutionary War, the Colonies won, so it was a battle for freedom from tyranny.  In the case of the Civil War, the Union won, so it was a battle to keep other states from seceding.  Seems like a side could have been called traitors in each war: the Colonies or the Southern States.  Each of the signers of the Declaration knew they were setting themselves up for hanging by a British court.

Now, about the OP, I am not sure what was to be accomplished by this, other than to rile up our friends who live in the South and happen to take their (losing) side more seriously.  I understand agitating for fun, but I do not know many here who would be all that fun to irritate about this topic.  Like other history, why would anyone want to keep twisting that knife well after the matter has been settled?  


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ole-zeke, I agree with the spirit of your post but I will point out the OP was in response to the Confederate Flag being used as a symbol TODAY (flagrantly waved in front of the White House).

And that symbol in this recent context is a revival of the secessionist attiude with racist undertones directed at the president and at blacks in general (whom many red-state governments are trying to disenfranchise any way they can).


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 6:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 29 2013, 2:43 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 29 2013, 1:10 pm)
QUOTE
Civil War....you mean the War of Northern Aggression?

Maybe they were standing on shaky ground morally, but the Southern States had every right so succeed from the Union.

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you on their legal grounds as well:

It would have been a bit embarrassing if they hadn't....wouldn't it?
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 6:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Section. 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Rather straightforward as Texas v. White pointed out.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

The recent Washington marches carrying and displaying that flag up to and outside the White House and at other venues brings it up to the present day it seems to me.

And as free speech, completely okay IMHO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 6:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I was offended by both the flag and the speeches at that demonstration.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 6:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 29 2013, 3:16 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Oct. 29 2013, 2:43 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 29 2013, 1:10 pm)
QUOTE
Civil War....you mean the War of Northern Aggression?

Maybe they were standing on shaky ground morally, but the Southern States had every right so succeed from the Union.

The Supreme Court of the United States disagrees with you on their legal grounds as well:

It would have been a bit embarrassing if they hadn't....wouldn't it?

Well to get such a straightforward section of the Constitution wrong would be an embarrassment.
""Section. 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.""


But one they, thankfully eh?, didn't suffer.
Articles of Confederation
Article XIII:
"and the union shall be perpetual;"

:)

ETA: But, hey, make your case. Lay out the basis for that "every right".
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 29 2013, 10:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The colonists who revolted against the King were also traitors committing high treason. All the way up until they won.

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(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 29 2013, 10:41 pm)
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The colonists who revolted against the King were also traitors committing high treason. All the way up until they won.

The colonists were natives fighting a foreign government. The confederates were natives fighting their native countrymen. They were cowards who depended upon the commerce of slavery for their livelihood. Enslaving people was of higher importance to them than the concept that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 3:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Oct. 29 2013, 8:58 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 29 2013, 10:41 pm)
QUOTE
The colonists who revolted against the King were also traitors committing high treason. All the way up until they won.

The colonists were natives fighting a foreign government. The confederates were natives fighting their native countrymen. They were cowards who depended upon the commerce of slavery for their livelihood. Enslaving people was of higher importance to them than the concept that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights.

Different views...  Re. 'foreign government' - the settlers were English for the most part - esp. those holding offices in local governments and seats in the local legislatures. If one day, Hawaii were to "rebel" against Washington DC - would they be rebelling against a "foreign" government as well?  Hardly.

Secondly, I don't mind at all that certain Southerners still choose to rally to the old Confederate flag or to continue incorporating it in their state flags:

1.  The war was 150 years ago - tbe USA won!

2.   Freedom of expression.

3.  It's their heritage - and heritage / society is always good, bad, and ugly.  Why insist on focusing on their singularly worst aspect and ignoring all the rest? Both  Northerners and Southerners had their hands stained with Native American blood.  Shall we Americans therefore dig ouselves a hole and never celebrate our heritage?  That would be ridiculous.  Our heritage is stained (which heritage in the world isn't?) - but we also have many accomplishments!  Ditto the South.

4.  Perhaps most importantly - celebrating southern heritage does NOT automatically mean southerners want to secede again or re-embrace slavery!  So I say we refrain from getting 'in their face'.  If anyone today actually wants to secede or own slaves outright - then we will deal with that separately.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 3:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 29 2013, 7:41 pm)
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The colonists who revolted against the King were also traitors committing high treason. All the way up until they won.

Agree.  No thanks to our government, our media and the overly-simplistic ways history is taught - many have troubles seeing through the "loaded labels" of so-called freedom fighters versus insurgents / rebels / terrorists.

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(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 29 2013, 2:10 pm)
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My brother was in Mississippi on a travel writers' gig, and posted photos from the home of "President" Jefferson Davis. I commented that Davis was a "President" like Osama bin Laden was "President" of al Qaeda.

I read your comment and understand you are somehow implying a 'rightful' president versus otherwise?

As Montana explained up above - the difference here is really a political one.  Washington was certainly an unlawful (illegitimate) president - until he managed a final victory (with the help of the French).  Imagine a rebellious Hawaii soliciting (and getting) Chinese help.  If that arouses your patriotism and your yearning to defend the integrity of your country - then you can appreciate the response of the  British monarch - and the full support he got from the British parliament!

The difference between Washington and Davis was the latter's failure to secure a lasting victory to turn what was treasonous and  unlawful into a new legitimacy.  Politics.  Some people like to frame this difference into something sacred (or nearly so) - and some don't.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 8:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Oct. 29 2013, 9:58 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 29 2013, 10:41 pm)
QUOTE
The colonists who revolted against the King were also traitors committing high treason. All the way up until they won.

The colonists were natives fighting a foreign government. The confederates were natives fighting their native countrymen.

Wrong.
At the time of the Revolution, the colonists were British citizens under rule of the King. By declaring independence and revolting against their fellow countrymen, they were traitors committing high treason against their lawful government and under the laws of then and now, were subject to execution for those acts.

QUOTE
the concept that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights.


Except the Founding Fathers didn't include slaves, Indians, indentured servants, non-landowners or women in that "all men are created equal".


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 8:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

America was a British colony. The declaration and subsequent war of independence was fought against an external imperial power.

After Independence America became one nation including the southern states. 100 years later the south decided to secede, after being part of the nation since it's inception.

I think there is a difference between being a colony that revolts and being one nation with secession happening within it.

Of course as always, one mans traitor is another mans hero.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 9:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
America was a British colony. The declaration and subsequent war of independence was fought against an external imperial power.

It was not an external imperial power. It was only remote. The colonies were still British subjects.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 10:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW, we went through this at length a month or so ago.

There are some similarities and many differences between the American Revolution and the Civil War.

Bottom line is, the first was a good cause and the latter a bad cause (always some shades of gray, but it's pretty clear-cut here).


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 11:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I visited my Grandmother's grave a year or so ago. It was next to the Confederate soldiers section of the cemetery and there several Confederate flags flying. I wasn't the least bit disturbed by that. As others have noted, it's part of our heritage (families from the south).  

I didn't like the guy waving a Confederate flag in front of the White House. If I remember correctly he was also waving the Marine Corps flag, which I also didn't like.

Ben got it right in his post #16.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 12:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Oct. 30 2013, 1:02 am)
QUOTE

(TehipiteTom @ Oct. 29 2013, 2:10 pm)
QUOTE
My brother was in Mississippi on a travel writers' gig, and posted photos from the home of "President" Jefferson Davis. I commented that Davis was a "President" like Osama bin Laden was "President" of al Qaeda.

I read your comment and understand you are somehow implying a 'rightful' president versus otherwise?

As Montana explained up above - the difference here is really a political one.  Washington was certainly an unlawful (illegitimate) president - until he managed a final victory (with the help of the French). ……………..

?
Speaking of "the overly-simplistic ways history is taught"….
Washington wasn't president during the revolutionary war, he was the commanding general of the army.

"George Washington
On April 30, 1789, George Washington, standing on the balcony of Federal Hall on Wall Street in New York, took his oath of office as the first President of the United States. "As the first of every thing, in our situation will serve to establish a Precedent," he wrote James Madison, "it is devoutly wished on my part, that these precedents may be fixed on true principles.".."

Note the date: the war was long over.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/presidents/georgewashington

And the "presidents" of the Continental Congress (which Washington never was) were functioning as chairmen and moderators of the Congress' meetings and after the Articles of Confederation? That was still the role. "Articles of Confederation: "The United States in Congress assembled shall have authority to appoint one of their members to preside, provided that no person be allowed to serve in the office of president more than one year in any term of three years;"" That may be reflected in today's Senate leadership structure where the Vice President is the President of the Senate while the President pro tempore is the second highest ranking official:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...._Senate

So, no Washington wasn't an illegitimate president, unless you were to desire to defend the position the entire United States government is illegitimate up to today. But I would suggest the treaty of peace that was signed by the British in Paris in 1783 established a legitimate basis for the governments (and presidents) that followed.
"In addition to giving formal recognition to the U.S., the nine articles that embodied the treaty: established U.S. boundaries, specified certain fishing rights, allowed creditors of each country to be paid by citizens of the other, restored the rights and property of Loyalists, opened up the Mississippi River to citizens of both nations and provided for evacuation of all British forces."
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/milestones/paris/
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 1:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1

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(wwwest @ Oct. 30 2013, 10:03 am)
QUOTE
+1

The entire "glass houses" thing came to mind….
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(Drift Woody @ Oct. 30 2013, 8:31 am)
QUOTE
MLW, we went through this at length a month or so ago.

There are some similarities and many differences between the American Revolution and the Civil War.

Bottom line is, the first was a good cause and the latter a bad cause (always some shades of gray, but it's pretty clear-cut here).

The point I'm making isn't over which was good or bad, better or worse, but only that the colonists did revolt against their lawful ruler and fellow citizens and that part of the American Revolution is the same as the Southern revolt... both were traitors committing treason regardless of the why.

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(Ben2World @ Oct. 30 2013, 12:34 am)
QUOTE
2.   Freedom of expression.

Nobody's arguing that the guy should be legally prohibited from waving that flag. We're just pointing out what that flag actually represents.

QUOTE
3.  It's their heritage - and heritage / society is always good, bad, and ugly.  Why insist on focusing on their singularly worst aspect and ignoring all the rest? Both  Northerners and Southerners had their hands stained with Native American blood.  Shall we Americans therefore dig ouselves a hole and never celebrate our heritage?  That would be ridiculous.  Our heritage is stained (which heritage in the world isn't?) - but we also have many accomplishments!  Ditto the South.

But that cuts both ways: people who embrace the flag of the so-called "Confederacy" as a primary symbol of "Southern pride" are, in fact, focusing on the singularly worst aspect of Southern history. If we're talking about the South, I would happily focus on the positive aspects: on Faulkner or Flannery O'Connor or Zora Neale Hurston; on Robert Johnson or Elvis Presley; on Dr. King or Rosa Parks. It's the Confederate flag wavers who insist on highlighting the worst of the South.

The other thing here, an essential point that often gets lost in the discussion, is that the Confederate flage does not represent "Southern heritage"; it represents white Southern heritage. It does not in any way represent African-Americans, who have historically made up a large percentage of the population of the South (aka "Southerners").

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4.  Perhaps most importantly - celebrating southern heritage does NOT automatically mean southerners want to secede again or re-embrace slavery!  So I say we refrain from getting 'in their face'.  If anyone today actually wants to secede or own slaves outright - then we will deal with that separately.

You may not be familiar with the history here, Ben, so I'll help you out: the "Confederate flag" we see today, after decades of relative disuse, was revived in the 1950s and '60s as an explicit symbol of segregationist sentiment and overall resistance to civil rights. There was no ambiguity about what people meant when they brandished it in those days. What they meant was support for white supremacy. That's not ancient history; that's within my lifetime (and yours). And any understanding of the symbolism of that flag has to take into account its actual role in relatively recent history (not just some airy rhetoric about "southern heritage").

That's not to say everyone who waves a Confederate flag is knowingly embracing either treason or white supremacy. Lots of people are just ignorant or misguided about the historical context. That's the point of this thread.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 5:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I googled "people who always have to be right." Quite a bit there.

You're not alone!


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 30 2013, 7:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Oct. 30 2013, 6:27 am)
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the concept that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights.


Except the Founding Fathers didn't include slaves, Indians, indentured servants, non-landowners or women in that "all men are created equal".

That's because black people weren't really human until the passage of the 13th 14th and 15th amendments.

Women didn't have the sensibility to vote responsibly until the 19th amendment was passed.

Don't even get me started on Native Americans.

After all, the Constitution is the be-all and end-all in morality AND law!

Might as well just lock this thread and discuss something else.  Move along folks, there's nothing here to see...
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