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Topic: Good news on Iran, Out of Geneva< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2013, 10:54 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://m.washingtonpost.com/world....ational

Talking can work.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2013, 10:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's a beginning. Let's hope we've turned the corner.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2013, 11:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thirty five years ago, when people mentioned Iran, they had in mind a rich and progressive (and sometimes extravagant) nation -- much like the way people think today when they mention Dubai.  Iran has so much untapped wealth and potential -- for their sake -- I hope those days will be back again very shortly.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 23 2013, 11:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A White House statement

http://m.whitehouse.gov/the-pre....program

Do much better to invasion or bombing which some keep agitating for.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 12:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Nov. 23 2013, 11:39 pm)
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Thirty five years ago, when people mentioned Iran, they had in mind a rich and progressive (and sometimes extravagant) nation -- much like the way people think today when they mention Dubai.  Iran has so much untapped wealth and potential -- for their sake -- I hope those days will be back again very shortly.

I've always felt the Iranians were an intelligent and sophisticated people.  After all, they are the descendants of the Persians and those Persians weren't slouches by any stretch of the imagination.  They've got a highly educated and motivated population of young people who can't be repressed indefinitely.  Their potential is great and I hope they are given the chance to achieve it.  The world would be a better place for it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Nov. 23 2013, 9:39 pm)
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Thirty five years ago, when people mentioned Iran, they had in mind a rich and progressive (and sometimes extravagant) nation -- much like the way people think today when they mention Dubai.  Iran has so much untapped wealth and potential -- for their sake -- I hope those days will be back again very shortly.

+1.  It still saddens me that they're seen as an outlier nation (the "axis of evil" moniker lingers on) because of poor leadership in recent years.

I have a number of very close Persian friends. Almost all of them are as frustrated by their country's leaders as anyone.  I would very much like to visit there someday. I keep shaking my head every time an idiot politician starts talking again about bombing or invading the country for little other reason than they feel like it. I keep wanting to apologize to my friends for the occasional stupidity of our nation.

But, back to the OP... good!  That's progress.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 2:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But...bombing them is so much more fun...and catchy!

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 7:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm glad they could work a deal.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 10:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Wouldn't this be great if it worked out?  That we could finally make peace with Iran.  I hope so.  More likely:  Inspectors turned away or not allowed to all areas.  Some areas we don't even know about.  More death to America chants.  Lifting of some sanctions then wondering if we should reinstitute them.
Debate goes on.  Iran buys more time to do what they want.

Eeyore.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 10:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lot of criticism from congress about these negotiations.    

The main complaint is that, while working out a compromise,  the U.S. didn't get everything we wanted, with Iranians getting nothing. ( Not realistic, IMO.)



(I edited to remove my reference to GOP leading the criticism...I recognize there is also dem criticism).


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 11:59 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Nov. 24 2013, 10:30 am)
QUOTE
Lot of criticism from congress about these negotiations.    

The main complaint is that, while working out a compromise,  the U.S. didn't get everything we wanted, with Iranians getting nothing. ( Not realistic, IMO.)



(I edited to remove my reference to GOP leading the criticism...I recognize there is also dem criticism).

The deal also isolates Israel and could push them to strike on their own.  To me, this is Chamberlain capitulating to Hitler all over again.

Another major failure/blunder by the obama group.

Very sad.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 1:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RedDoug @ Nov. 24 2013, 11:59 am)
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To me, this is Chamberlain capitulating to Hitler all over again.

Oh,come on Doug.  That's a bit overstating things. I don't see  what we're really giving up. Israel is about as isolated as they can be.  As long as they have American backing and they will, they would be totally isolated.  Just because we deal with other nations, doesn't mean we're abandoning Israel.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes, I'm sure Obama has delivered "peace for our time"...until we see a big mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 1:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So for those that do not think this deal is good what are the options to this short term deal?

What would additional sanctions that some are pushing for accomplish and who believes that a military involvement will lead to a positive outcome?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Nov. 24 2013, 12:30 pm)
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Yes, I'm sure Obama has delivered "peace for our time"...until we see a big mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv.

Ah, the old "mushroom cloud" ... lifted directly from the GW Bush book of bogus rhetoric. Combined with the Neville Chamberlain false equivalency, we can all be "sure" your rightwing programming has been very effective.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The good news is that some of the right wing nuts have moved their world view from the 18th Century to the 1930's.

Hopefully they will get clear to 2000 during their lifetimes, that would be huge.

How many satellites, linked to submarines and air craft carriers do you think that have Iran under 24 hour surveillance??  

Just like 1936, neh?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 2:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There will be crocodile tears from the evangelical right about this...they want a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv, so the "rapture" can occur, Jesus can return, blah blah blah.  This is the only reason they support Israel.

I have nothing but contempt for "end timers".  If the next world is so much better than this one, why wait?  Stick a shotgun in your mouth, and get there now.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 2:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Or, just stop eating.  No need for messy violence if you truly believe.

Could try the kool aid!?


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 2:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Death by hunger strike requires real conviction, and courage.  If end-time evangelicals had any of that, they would be making this world a better place instead of hastening its end.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not long after the accord was reached, Iran’s President Hassan Rouhani said the deal recognizes Tehran’s “right” to maintain an enrichment program.

Rouhani said, “Let anyone make his own reading, but this right is clearly stated in the text of the agreement that Iran can continue its enrichment, and I announce to our people that our enrichment activities will continue as before.”

But Kerry said in response on Sunday that the deal does not recognize a “right to enrich.”

“There is no inherent right to enrich,” Kerry said on ABC’s “This Week.” “And everywhere in this particular agreement it states that they could only do that by mutual agreement, and nothing is agreed on until everything is agreed on.”


Am I the only one who sees a problem here?  Seems to me they're just stalling for time (again).  Agreeing to do something, and actually following through are to completely different things.

Sticking your head in the sand isn't much better than putting a shotgun in your mouth.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 3:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Nov. 23 2013, 11:39 pm)
QUOTE
Thirty five years ago, when people mentioned Iran, they had in mind a rich and progressive (and sometimes extravagant) nation -- much like the way people think today when they mention Dubai.  Iran has so much untapped wealth and potential -- for their sake -- I hope those days will be back again very shortly.

For those that followed what went on inside Iran at the time I don't think the word "progressive"
is what they had in mind

of course what replaced it was obviously even worse


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 3:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Wouldn't this be great if it worked out?  That we could finally make peace with Iran.  I hope so.  More likely:  Inspectors turned away or not allowed to all areas.  Some areas we don't even know about.  More death to America chants.  Lifting of some sanctions then wondering if we should reinstitute them.
Debate goes on.  Iran buys more time to do what they want.

Eeyore.

"More death to America chants."

What are living int the 1980's? That certainly isn't how the vast majority of Iran's population thinks of the US now


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Nov. 24 2013, 1:08 pm)
QUOTE

(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 10:25 am)
QUOTE
Wouldn't this be great if it worked out?  That we could finally make peace with Iran.  I hope so.  More likely:  Inspectors turned away or not allowed to all areas.  Some areas we don't even know about.  More death to America chants.  Lifting of some sanctions then wondering if we should reinstitute them.
Debate goes on.  Iran buys more time to do what they want.

Eeyore.

"More death to America chants."

What are living int the 1980's? That certainly isn't how the vast majority of Iran's population thinks of the US now

Too bad the "vast majority of Iranians" don't control the government or the military.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 3:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sanctions (and new leadership elements) have brought them temporarily to the negotiating table.

And, sanctions have been very effective against the Iranian people.

But, sanctions have not been effective against the nuclear program.  Maybe have even stimulated it.  164 centrifuges in '03 and 19,000+ today.  

Continuing this same flawed approach will ultimately lead to to an attack/invasion of Iran.  Think Iraq and Afghanistan was messey?

Wise decision to try out a different approach for a limited time.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 3:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

When is the "might makes right" group going to realize that just because this country doesn't get everything it's way, every time, that it isn't capitulation.  There other points of view in the world other than ours.  Some of them might even make sense.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 4:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A few notes on the relationship between the US and Iran:

In 1953 Iran had a democratically elected government until it was overthrown in a US-backed coup that installed the Shah, whose repressive regime (allied with the US) lasted a quarter century.

The Iranian revolution of 1979 ushered in the current government, which has elections but is ultimately ruled by conservative Islamists. The Shah escaped, and when he was admitted to the US for medical treatment and extradition to Iran was refused, the US embassy in Tehran was stormed and 52 Americans were held hostage for 444 days.

In 1980 Iran was invaded by the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, who used chemical weapons (components purchased from Western countries including the US) against Iran in the bloody 8 year war. The US aided Iraq with military intelligence.

After 3000 civilians in America were killed by al Qaeda terrorists in 2001, the US president lumped Iran together in an "Axis of Evil" that included Korea and Iraq. The US invaded Iraq in 2003 under false pretenses.

Iran has invaded no country.

The US and Israel have nuclear weapons. Iran does not.

The US is the world's superpower, with military bases & forces arrayed all around Iran.
..................

Personally, I believe it should be US policy to lead efforts to deny acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iran. However, I think taking military action against Iran would be more damaging to US interests than Iran joining the nuclear club. I believe Iran would NOT commit national suicide by nuking any of its neighbors.

And I think comparing the recent diplomatic efforts and limited accord to Neville Chamberlain's appeasement of Nazi Germany reveals appalling ignorance and lack of critical thought.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 5:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Nov. 24 2013, 10:30 am)
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Yes, I'm sure Obama has delivered "peace for our time"...until we see a big mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv.

Given all the nukes Israel has?

Not going to happen.

Just about every other nuclear  weapon armed country might blink before vaporizing their attackers cities with all those innocent civilians. Not Israel, history has consequences and the Holocaust a very long shadow. Besides why bother nuking what you're going to get through the ballot box? "Greater Israel" is already majority ethnic Arab: now it's just about a matter of having the kids grow up to be voters and then acknowledge what decades of Israeli hard liners worked so hard to establish on the ground, one nation west of the Jordan. That that nation will be an Arab democracy or an apartheid state and then an Arab democracy? Oops.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

lets hope for the best.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 10:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Nov. 24 2013, 12:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Nov. 24 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
Yes, I'm sure Obama has delivered "peace for our time"...until we see a big mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv.

Ah, the old "mushroom cloud" ... lifted directly from the GW Bush book of bogus rhetoric. Combined with the Neville Chamberlain false equivalency, we can all be "sure" your rightwing programming has been very effective.

You never stop.  And why is it a false equivalency?  And what's with rightwing programming?  Talk about programmed, normal knee jerk response.  Back to GW Bush. You think the Iranians are going to play nice?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 24 2013, 10:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Nov. 24 2013, 12:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Nov. 24 2013, 12:30 pm)
QUOTE
Yes, I'm sure Obama has delivered "peace for our time"...until we see a big mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv.

Ah, the old "mushroom cloud" ... lifted directly from the GW Bush book of bogus rhetoric. Combined with the Neville Chamberlain false equivalency, we can all be "sure" your rightwing programming has been very effective.

You never stop.

Thank you for that astute observation, which I take as a compliment.


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE
And why is it a false equivalency?

I refer you to post #26, in which I explained it in detail.


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE
And what's with rightwing programming?  Talk about programmed, normal knee jerk response.

Yes, that's what I was talking about when Lamebeaver delivered exactly that.


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE
Back to GW Bush.

Yep, that's where Lame went for his lame rhetoric.


(Squaretop @ Nov. 24 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE
You think the Iranians are going to play nice?

Nice? Who plays nice? No nation-state that I know of. I expect Iran to scratch & claw for what its leaders believe to be in its own best interests, like every other nation-state.

Tell me something, Squaretop. Did you believe it when you were told Iraq possessed huge stockpiles of biochem weapons, would soon have nukes, and posed a "grave and gathering threat" to the United States?

Seriously. Did you believe it?


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