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Topic: Freedom you say?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 25 2013, 4:14 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ran across this interesting quote this AM in my study. History Professor Arthur Herman (who is a conservative) wrote-human beings think they want freedom; but what they really want is license.

Wonderful writer, although he does take some literary (license, sorry) but makes a fascinating point here nonetheless.

I actually have posited for years that 'freedom' is very misunderstood and a overvalued concept in modern American society. It's the catch phrase for many however, especially the tea baggers.

Anytime any ideologue hears something that they do not like, the cry freedom is usually heard in one way or another. People don't really understand what freedom, liberty and choice actually are, they just think they do. What they really want is...validation in that belief.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 25 2013, 4:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ignorance re. freedom and rights abound.  One example of crude attempt in silencing others -- regrettably quite common -- is the retort along the lines of: "well, if you disagree so much, then move to ......".

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 25 2013, 5:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose
-- Kris Kristofferson

Freedom ain't free
-- bumper sticker mentality to justify almost any military action

Tamarac, I might have issued a less flippant response than the quotes above if you had provided a link to Arthur Herman's essay.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 25 2013, 5:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 27 2013, 9:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, because one has so many more options, after they are dead.

"Freedom" is the most abused word in politi-speech.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 28 2013, 8:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ecocentric @ Nov. 27 2013, 6:40 pm)
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Yeah, because one has so many more options, after they are dead.

"Freedom" is the most abused word in politi-speech.

I've said "freedom" was a BS world many years ago. But so are many words, such as "love" and "best". Meaningless because each time they are used, they must be explained or else they mean nothing at all.

BTW, the commies really "love" "freedom". Ho Chin Minh said so:

"The Vietnamese people deeply love independence, freedom and peace. But in the face of United States aggression they have risen up, united as one man."
--Ho Chi Minh

I've always noticed in every war, both sides claim to be fighting for the same thing, "freedom" whatever that is.

I guess "freedom"  means something like when I was drafted for a war that I didn't believe in, from a so-called "free" country.

"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do."
--Eric Hoffer

-Don Quoteman, SSF, CA


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 6:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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I guess "freedom"  means something like when I was drafted for a war that I didn't believe in, from a so-called "free" country.

While I disagree with sending US troops off to fight somewhere else in someone else's war*, I do believe everyone in the US should be required to provide some kind of service to the government for the freedoms they do have because while you guys make snarky comments about it, freedom really isn't free. Many someones somewhere went off and died so others could (and can) make 1st amendment comments about such things while staying home out of harm's way.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

*Fighting wars like WW1 and 2 against worldwide conquest are far different matters than some place like Viet Nam or Bosnia.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 9:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is a complicated subject, but we always reward violence first. Not good.

Let's reward the folks who go out on a frosty morning and feed soup to the poor.

Enough praise has been heaped on the killers.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 9:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 4:58 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I guess "freedom"  means something like when I was drafted for a war that I didn't believe in, from a so-called "free" country.

While I disagree with sending US troops off to fight somewhere else in someone else's war*, I do believe everyone in the US should be required to provide some kind of service to the government for the freedoms they do have because while you guys make snarky comments about it, freedom really isn't free. Many someones somewhere went off and died so others could (and can) make 1st amendment comments about such things while staying home out of harm's way.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

*Fighting wars like WW1 and 2 against worldwide conquest are far different matters than some place like Viet Nam or Bosnia.

Something along the lines of JFK's,"Ask not what your country can do for you..."

I would agree with your statement but add there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military. A honest person that simply adds to society in a positive way serves in their own way.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 10:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Gabby @ Nov. 29 2013, 8:43 am)
QUOTE
This is a complicated subject, but we always reward violence first. Not good.

Let's reward the folks who go out on a frosty morning and feed soup to the poor.

Enough praise has been heaped on the killers.

Praise is cheap, but caring for our warriors when they come back broken is expensive. Not as expensive as the riches we continue to heap upon the MIC (revealing our priorities).

Many of the homeless needing soup on a frosty morning used to be recipients of the cheap praise.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 10:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tamarac @ Nov. 25 2013, 4:14 pm)
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Ran across this interesting quote this AM in my study. History Professor Arthur Herman (who is a conservative) wrote-human beings think they want freedom; but what they really want is license.

The concept of freedom is what's important, not the actual word used to describe the concept.

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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 10:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 29 2013, 9:30 am)
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The concept of freedom is what's important, not the actual word used to describe the concept.

Words have meaning which evoke the concept in the minds of people using or hearing the word. Therefore it is essential to have a functional and meaningful definition of the word within the context it is being applied.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 11:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 3:58 am)
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While I disagree with sending US troops off to fight somewhere else in someone else's war*, I do believe everyone in the US should be required to provide some kind of service to the government for the freedoms they do have
If it's voluntary, then I agree. If not voluntary, let's not lie about it by calling our lack of true freedom as being  "freedom".  Every country pretends to fight for freedom, but it's just a meaningless BS word that means absolutely nothing until its true meaning is explained each and every time the word is used. If it must be explained each time used, what does it mean? Nothing!

Kinda like the word "love". I don't know how many times I heard somebody say they got a divorcee but still "love" the person they divorced. What does that mean? Again, it needs to be explained.

And the word "best". Best for what? For whom and why? Again must be explained.

There are plenty of BS words, but the word "freedom" probably tops the list.

Which country says they are against freedom? Which country says they fight against having freedom? None that I am aware of.

-Don-  SSF, CA


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 6:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 5:21 pm)
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QUOTE
there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.

Even the sons and daughters of billionaires??!!!

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 7:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 6:21 pm)
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there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.

Says the libertarian who despises big government.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 7:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Nov. 29 2013, 4:50 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 5:21 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.

Even the sons and daughters of billionaires??!!!

Everyone physically able, no exceptions for school or wealth.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 8:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You'll get a lot of crying and protesting from the majority of Americans (with shouts of freedom!), but I'm cool with that.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 29 2013, 9:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 7:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Nov. 29 2013, 4:50 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 5:21 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.

Even the sons and daughters of billionaires??!!!

Everyone physically able, no exceptions for school or wealth.

Not a big fan of freedom after all eh?
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(HighGravity @ Nov. 29 2013, 6:22 pm)
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Not a big fan of freedom after all eh?

Like I already explained, it depends on how one  defines the word.

Not having to do what you don't wish to do is one way I would define it.

When I was drafted to fight in  a war that I didn't believe in, that wasn't freedom IMO.

-Don-  SSF, CA


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 30 2013, 8:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

DonTom
QUOTE
When I was drafted to fight in  a war that I didn't believe in, that wasn't freedom IMO.


Good point. But I would point out, that like the concept of FREEDOM, the concept of WAR, as quoting from tamarac's OP - "is very misunderstood and a overvalued concept in modern American society. It's the catch phrase for many however, especially the tea baggers."

In its pre-history form, war was when one group of hungry humans invaded a neighbouring group, killed or enslaved them, and took the food that they had stored up. Maybe the invaders weren't even hungry. Maybe they were just too lazy to store up their own food.

Maybe some of those being invaded were morally opposed to war - so they were either killed or were enslaved.

Maybe some of those in the invaders group were morally opposed to war - but they got to share the benefits of the new slaves and food.

But in pre-history, WAR was a simple concept. Not so in modern times.

So it is easy to see how a lot of people would not believe in fighting a war where the objectives and benefits are not so clear. WAR simply does not have the same meaning.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 30 2013, 8:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

People in this country are required to do or not do a great number of things they do or do not support. It's part of the US and backing the country and government even on issues you don't believe in is a part of being free.

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(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 6:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Nov. 29 2013, 4:50 pm)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 29 2013, 5:21 pm)
QUOTE
QUOTE
there are many ways one can serve the country, it does not have to be military.

No it doesn't but some kind of public service should be required of all citizens upon graduating high school.

Even the sons and daughters of billionaires??!!!

Everyone physically able, no exceptions for school or wealth.

That's a massive government program. I do not necessarily disagree, but I'd like to see how it would be fleshed out. It could offer a wide range of fields outside the military, some of which could be scientific or academic. Ideally, the youngsters would not only be performing a service but also gaining some real world experience that might help them make a more mature decision in choosing a career path.


(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 30 2013, 7:15 am)
QUOTE
People in this country are required to do or not do a great number of things they do or do not support. It's part of the US and backing the country and government even on issues you don't believe in is a part of being free.

IMO that's a healthy attitude sorely lacking in this country, though there are limits. I missed the Vietnam draft by a few years, and would have seriously considered Canada or jail before fighting in a war I vehemently opposed.


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(DonTom @ Nov. 30 2013, 6:28 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Nov. 29 2013, 6:22 pm)
QUOTE
Not a big fan of freedom after all eh?

Like I already explained, it depends on how one  defines the word.

Not having to do what you don't wish to do is one way I would define it.

When I was drafted to fight in  a war that I didn't believe in, that wasn't freedom IMO.

-Don-  SSF, CA

That was my point. Lonewolf is quick to denounce various forms of what he thinks is government oppression (like gun laws, paying for public schools, etc) but now he's promoting making every single able bodied person a servant  to the federal government.

That's the problem with these umbrella words like freedom, liberty, patriotism, Wall Street, Main Street, etc. They all mean different things to different people yet we have large groups of people, all with differing definitions of these words acting collectively. The Tea Party is not a remotely united group of people. Some are republicans, some are libertarians, some want to secede from the US, some are anarchists, etc., yet they all act as if they are united. Then when they gain power, they can't achieve anything because they are at odds with everyone.
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(DriftWoody @ Nov. 30 2013, 9:13 am)
QUOTE
That's a massive government program. I do not necessarily disagree, but I'd like to see how it would be fleshed out. It could offer a wide range of fields outside the military, some of which could be scientific or academic. Ideally, the youngsters would not only be performing a service but also gaining some real world experience that might help them make a more mature decision in choosing a career path.
Yeah. I believe this country should go back to a "universal service" system, not necessarily military, but based solely on aptitude and disregarding pedigree and sex.

I served "Vietnam era" (Air Force). College turned out not to be a viable financial option for a poor kid from south Texas, so I joined. I very realistically expected to serve in Vietnam - I was both cavalier and, at the same time, resigned. Felt I had no real choice. I was rescued by my "nerdy nature" - I progressed through a series of "career tests" to survive as only 50 (out of 2000) to enter a Chinese linguist program. It was, as observed, a way of gaining some maturity, though there were both physical and mental risks, some of which had little to do with the "military" aspects of service. Thrown in with guys from every walk of life, I found that I wasn't so "special", nor so "unusual".
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(Montanalonewolf @ Nov. 30 2013, 5:15 am)
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People in this country are required to do or not do a great number of things they do or do not support. It's part of the US and backing the country and government even on issues you don't believe in is a part of being free.

Nonsense. I am not saying it's  bad to support our country, but let's not lie about it and call our lack of freedom as freedom.

Being forced to do what you don't wish to do is  much closer to what is called slavery than freedom.

-Don- SSF, CA


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 01 2013, 6:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Being forced to do what you don't wish to do is  much closer to what is called slavery than freedom.

So being forced to pay for Obamacare when I don't want want or support it is akin to slavery?
Good to know you agree.


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(Montanalonewolf @ Dec. 01 2013, 6:16 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Being forced to do what you don't wish to do is  much closer to what is called slavery than freedom.

So being forced to pay for Obamacare when I don't want want or support it is akin to slavery?
Good to know you agree.

So you agree that the military is form of slavery?
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(Montanalonewolf @ Dec. 01 2013, 3:16 am)
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So being forced to pay for Obamacare when I don't want want or support it is akin to slavery?
Good to know you agree.

As much as is any other tax. But I would call all taxes  a form of socialism and is neutral in the slavery / freedom department.

I know the argument that ObamaCare is not a tax. But if the government requires it, it is a tax, IMO.

BTW, I am neutral on ObamaCare. I expect many problems at first. I just hope they can be worked out to a system that works well for most.

-Don-  SF, CA


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Some people are a slave to their own ideologies.

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