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Topic: Redneck Sheriff will not lower flag, for Nelson Mandela< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 11:26 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Pickens County Sheriff will not lower flag for Nelson Mandela

PICKENS COUNTY, SC (WCSC) -
A South Carolina sheriff said he would not lower his department's flag for Nelson Mandela citing that the former South African president was not an American.

"Nelson Mandela did great things for his country and was a brave man but he was not an AMERICAN!!!" wrote Pickens County Sheriff Rick Clark on a Facebook post.

President Barack Obama ordered American flags to be lowered half staff until Monday in tribute to Mandela, who died on Thursday.


http://www.wncn.com/story....mandela
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 11:50 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What I would say to Sherrif Rick Clark:

South Carolina is among the states of the USA.
The United States is among the nations of planet Earth.

Sometimes when a respected local leader passes away it is appropriate to lower the municipal, county, or state flag to half mast.

Sometimes a national leader passes away, and it is appropriate to lower all the flags in the nation to half mast.

Nelson Mandela was a leader of global stature. It is appropriate to lower flags everywhere on Earth in honor of his passing.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 12:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One other way to look at is would be that the American President has signed the order for all American flags to be lowered until Monday.  In case that particular sheriff did not like Obama, I would counter that regardless of personal likes and dislikes, he is still each and every Americans President and Commander in Chief.  I doubt any of this would alter the sheriff's stance since it is purely a political one.

On a side note, I ride by a multinational flag display for a monument, and yesterday I noticed every flag was lowered to half mast.  Truly a global statement of loss.  


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not weighing in on whether he should or should not but OZ, you are wrong. The president can only order flags on federal buildings and military bases to be lowered. On state property, as on private property, the president has no authority.  

The other two times a president ordered flags lowered (Churchill and Pope JP2) also caused some division. Protocol is that they are only lowered for Americans.

You can argue that it would be morally right. Legally, no.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While I completely disagree with the sheriff's intensely "Americentric" outlook - I respect his authority over his  department - subject to appropriate local / county / state jurisdiction.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bill g @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:00 pm)
QUOTE
The other two times a president ordered flags lowered (Churchill and Pope JP2) also caused some division. Protocol is that they are only lowered for Americans.

You can argue that it would be morally right. Legally, no.

Not sure where you got this information but it's not accurate. The flags were lowered upon presidential order when Yitzhak Rabin, King Husein and Anwar Sadat died.

The US Flag code states:

QUOTE
By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:09 pm)
QUOTE
While I completely disagree with the sheriff's intensely "Americentric" outlook - I respect his authority over his  department - subject to appropriate local / county / state jurisdiction.

So you don't respect the president's authority?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And why exactly do you feel that the term "redneck" needs to be mentioned?

Just curious.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Dec. 07 2013, 10:26 am)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:09 pm)
QUOTE
While I completely disagree with the sheriff's intensely "Americentric" outlook - I respect his authority over his  department - subject to appropriate local / county / state jurisdiction.

So you don't respect the president's authority?

My understanding is that the president doesn't have that authority over state and local governments.  And in more ways than one, it is a good thing that power in our country is not totally centralized -- don't you think?

BUT if I am mistaken and the president does have such authority -- then I stand corrected -- and no public official should openly defy such order.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA....honored

As usual HG knows many things that just ain't so.

The rules on flying the flag have been updated a few times, but generally they are unchanged.

Not all countries are honoring Mandela by lowering their flag. Australia is one of hundreds of examples. But if their flag is in the US and I'm a setting like OZ mentions above, then it too must to lowered to half staff. No flag is to fly higher than the US flag. So if a state flag is next to a US flag, it must be lowered as well. The same would be true of a municipal or corporate flag.

Most everyone on this thread has it right...except HG


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 2:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:09 pm)
QUOTE
While I completely disagree with the sheriff's intensely "Americentric" outlook - I respect his authority over his  department - subject to appropriate local / county / state jurisdiction.

This. He comes across as a bit of a xenophobe, but he's a small town sheriff.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 2:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(smokehiker @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:30 pm)
QUOTE
And why exactly do you feel that the term "redneck" needs to be mentioned?

Just curious.

Because he is one. Thanks for asking.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bill g @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:56 pm)
QUOTE
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA....honored

As usual HG knows many things that just ain't so.

The rules on flying the flag have been updated a few times, but generally they are unchanged.

Not all countries are honoring Mandela by lowering their flag. Australia is one of hundreds of examples. But if their flag is in the US and I'm a setting like OZ mentions above, then it too must to lowered to half staff. No flag is to fly higher than the US flag. So if a state flag is next to a US flag, it must be lowered as well. The same would be true of a municipal or corporate flag.

Most everyone on this thread has it right...except HG

Perhaps you should read something other than religious propaganda, or at the very least read your own source. The first paragraph confirms what I said, you know the thing you said "ain't so."

Clinton orders flags at half staff on death of Rabin

Reagan orders flags at half-staff on death of Anwar Sadat.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 3:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Did we lower the flag when Yasser Arafat died?  What about Gandhi?  Gorbachev?  When Lech Walesa dies, will we lower the flag for him?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 3:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:37 pm)
QUOTE
BUT if I am mistaken and the president does have such authority -- then I stand corrected -- and no public official should openly defy such order.

He most certainly does have such power, although no means to enforce it.

The job of sheriff sure seems to attract a lot of nit wits.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 3:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

When I die, all the flags come down.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 5:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Dec. 07 2013, 2:59 pm)
QUOTE

(smokehiker @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:30 pm)
QUOTE
And why exactly do you feel that the term "redneck" needs to be mentioned?

Just curious.

Because he is one. Thanks for asking.

Is it the sheriff's issue with the flag that makes him a "redneck"?  Is it because he is in the south?  Do you have any other descriptive names for groups or individuals that do something you may not agree with?
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 12:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Who cares?  Hardly an issue to get bent out of shape over.

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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 1:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This sheriff running for re-election?

Oh and versus an unresponsive CSM article I'll take HGs US Fag code.

Here's a link:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf

7m is the relevant section.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/7
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 1:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'd say he's running for something. We just don't know what it is yet.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 1:00 pm    
Not weighing in on whether he should or should not but OZ, you are wrong. The president can only order flags on federal buildings and military bases to be lowered. On state property, as on private property, the president has no authority.  

The other two times a president ordered flags lowered (Churchill and Pope JP2) also caused some division. Protocol is that they are only lowered for Americans.

You can argue that it would be morally right. Legally, no.

--------------k
Bill G is orrect on this one.  The president has authority on federal property, not state or county property regarding flags.  I work on two federal reservations in two different states, and at one of theses reservations a local county rents a section of the reservation where they have a leased county bldg and the county does not have to follow federal proclamations regarding flags.  There are many times when the federal side of the facility has its flags at half-mast and the county's side are flying at full-mast.  We, the federal side, do honor proclamations from the governors to fly flags at half-mast when they make a proclamation honoring someone's passing.

Poor taste perhaps by he sheriff, but he does not have to follow the president's proclamation.

RS


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 6:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Posted on: Dec. 07 2013, 3:18 pm    

(Ben2World @ Dec. 07 2013, 1:37 pm)
QUOTE
BUT if I am mistaken and the president does have such authority -- then I stand corrected -- and no public official should openly defy such order.
He most certainly does have such power, although no means to enforce it.

The job of sheriff sure seems to attract a lot of nit wits.

Presidential authority in this case is indeed limited; it's limited to federal property.  There is no law saying state's have to follow presidential proclamations regarding this type of action.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 6:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not true Sven. The order is for all flags on all government buildings be flown at half-staff. You're right that no one has to listen to the order because there is no enforcement of it, but the President does have the right to order it as has been done many times before. This is the standard language used:

''As a mark of respect for the memory __I hereby order that the flag of the United States shall be flown at half-staff upon all public buildings and grounds, at all military posts and naval stations, and on all naval vessels of the Federal Government in the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its Territories and possessions until his interment. I also direct that the flag shall be flown at half-staff for the same length of time at all United States embassies, legations, consular offices, and other facilities abroad, including all military facilities and naval vessels and stations."
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 7:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Again, the provisions of the Flag Code on flying the flag at half-staff are, like all the Code’s provisions, a guide only. They do not apply, as a matter of law.

The PDFs mentioned are guidelines and you will see that here are no penalties and they have no enforcement provisions for enforcement.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 9:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Dec. 08 2013, 7:01 pm)
QUOTE
Again, the provisions of the Flag Code on flying the flag at half-staff are, like all the Code’s provisions, a guide only. They do not apply, as a matter of law.

The PDFs mentioned are guidelines and you will see that here are no penalties and they have no enforcement provisions for enforcement.

So, if you do not have respect for the flag and the leaders of our country, you don't have to comply, right?

Just like all spoiled brats who flaunt reason, order and civilized behavior??


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 9:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Dec. 08 2013, 7:01 pm)
QUOTE
Again, the provisions of the Flag Code on flying the flag at half-staff are, like all the Code’s provisions, a guide only. They do not apply, as a matter of law.

The PDFs mentioned are guidelines and you will see that here are no penalties and they have no enforcement provisions for enforcement.

So, if you do not have respect for the flag and the leaders of our country, you don't have to comply, right?

Just like all spoiled brats who flaunt reason, order and civilized behavior??

Hence, the sobriquet "red neck".


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 08 2013, 10:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rangersven @ Dec. 08 2013, 7:01 pm)
QUOTE
Again, the provisions of the Flag Code on flying the flag at half-staff are, like all the Code’s provisions, a guide only. They do not apply, as a matter of law.

The PDFs mentioned are guidelines and you will see that here are no penalties and they have no enforcement provisions for enforcement.

Um yeah, that's what I said. But it's tradition to follow the orders of your president. At least it was when they were white.
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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 09 2013, 10:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

One again, HG, that applies to federal public bldgs; the president has no authority over state and county bldgs.  I even gave you an example, but you choose not to believe it.  His orders have no standing regarding local and state property.  There is no law that compels local or state govts to follow the presidential proclamation regarding flags.  The verse you highlight is regarding federal property.

One again, I believe the sheriff shows lack of class, but he is not compelled to follow the president's order regarding the flag.  I have no idea what his motivations are.  He could be a states' rights proponent, he could just dislike President Obama, or you can just take what he wrote for face value on his website.  I won't call the sheriff a redneck as I don't know the man and I dislike the practice of labeling people.

The whole thing is really a non-story.  The flag is and should be flying over the death of the deputy.

Lame Beav brings up a good point, as most of the decisions to fly the flag at half-mast for foreign leaders are purely political in nature.

RS


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 09 2013, 11:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

South Carolina?

Just got himself re-elected.


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PostIcon Posted on: Dec. 09 2013, 12:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Very few flags in my county were lowered.  The only ones I noticed were private businesses.   The nearest fire departments and ambulance corps (three of each near me) did not lower flags.  I forgot to look when I went by the county courthouse.
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