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Topic: Another minister paraphrasing JC's words, 'bout gay people, and stuff< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 04 2014, 8:45 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How could he get it so wrong? And why is there no outcry from the left about this guy and what he said? I mean, I'm sure he believes what he says, and he's just paraphrasing JC's message .... Maybe ole man Phil and Lamebeaver and Three should sit him down and set him 'straight'.

http://youtu.be/9YdSbvp1UUk


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 04 2014, 9:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Jan. 04 2014, 8:45 pm)
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How could he get it so wrong? And why is there no outcry from the left about this guy and what he said? I mean, I'm sure he believes what he says, and he's just paraphrasing JC's message .... Maybe ole man Phil and Lamebeaver and Three should sit him down and set him 'straight'.

http://youtu.be/9YdSbvp1UUk

"JC's message"


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 04 2014, 9:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You never do.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 04 2014, 11:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Powerful.  I wish there were more who listened to that message.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 8:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 04 2014, 10:48 pm)
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Powerful.  I wish there were more who listened to that message.

There are a lot more than people think. Now, I wish they'd start speaking up more...

The NALT Christian Project (NALT = "not all like that") has been campaigning to get "NALT" Christians to speak up. Some very interesting videos (by clergy, scholars, and just plain people) have been posted on Facebook and on their wed page.

notalllikethat.org
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 9:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jan. 05 2014, 8:21 am)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Jan. 04 2014, 10:48 pm)
QUOTE
Powerful.  I wish there were more who listened to that message.

There are a lot more than people think. Now, I wish they'd start speaking up more...

The NALT Christian Project (NALT = "not all like that") has been campaigning to get "NALT" Christians to speak up. Some very interesting videos (by clergy, scholars, and just plain people) have been posted on Facebook and on their wed page.

notalllikethat.org

That's great, but I suspect that it will be largely ineffective.  Those people already don't want to impose their will on others.  They don't crave attention and power like the vocal minority.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But...what if Jesus had said "kill all the homosexuals, even if they are children"

Would he have said "I am compelled to follow the word of my Lord"

People who do or don't do something based on the imaginary being excuse scare me, whether its a "good" or "bad" outcome, because they are always just one insane instruction away from harming someone else.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 2:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(no_granola @ Jan. 05 2014, 8:27 am)
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That's great, but I suspect that it will be largely ineffective.  Those people already don't want to impose their will on others.  They don't crave attention and power like the vocal minority.

I respectfully disagree. The world is changed much more frequently and effectively by people quietly rethinking and leading by example than by crashing drums and clanging cymbals and people who are in love with the sound of their own voice.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Jan. 05 2014, 11:05 am)
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But...what if Jesus had said "kill all the homosexuals, even if they are children"

Would he have said "I am compelled to follow the word of my Lord"

People who do or don't do something based on the imaginary being excuse scare me, whether its a "good" or "bad" outcome, because they are always just one insane instruction away from harming someone else.

Nah...even if Jesus never existed, the gospels give a compelling account of what an exemplary life lived might look like. And for centuries, the sensible majority have drawn inspiration from that and used it as an example to aspire to, rather than as fodder for silly literalist interpretations.

That way of understanding the Bible (if the Bible says something, no matter how goofy or counter-intuitive, I must interpret it literally and follow it) is actually quite recent.

Nobody, and I do mean nobody, takes as literal and follows everything in the Bible. Everyone decides what parts (if any) to take seriously and apply to their lives. People (not Jesus, not the Bible, not the priest or rabbi, not "imaginary beings") are responsible for their own decisions.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 3:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jan. 05 2014, 2:44 pm)
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Nobody, and I do mean nobody, takes as literal and follows everything in the Bible.

LOL

Could you imagine the number of personalities that would be required to tackle this?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 4:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jan. 05 2014, 10:37 am)
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(no_granola @ Jan. 05 2014, 8:27 am)
QUOTE
That's great, but I suspect that it will be largely ineffective.  Those people already don't want to impose their will on others.  They don't crave attention and power like the vocal minority.

I respectfully disagree. The world is changed much more frequently and effectively by people quietly rethinking and leading by example than by crashing drums and clanging cymbals and people who are in love with the sound of their own voice.

Disagree completely.

People quietly and silently going about their lives are ignored.

Slavery didn't end because of some slave owner leading by example and setting folks go, or by skaves quietly going about their day. The civil rights of the 60's ended because of relentless pressure and action. The progress for LGBT rights only began because of Stonewall and the loud and proud folks.

Your argument essentially says closeted gay folks have wrought the changes we've seen over the last 30 years .... And that's simply not the case.

Oh, and the follow up comment about people living the bible .... Well, kinda ... Depends on what parts of the bible you're talking about. Even a thousand years ago the church had very strict rules about such things, and doing anything other than that was, let's say, problematic.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 4:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Jan. 05 2014, 3:10 pm)
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Your argument essentially says closeted gay folks have wrought the changes we've seen over the last 30 years .... And that's simply not the case.

I probably didn't do a very good job of conveying what I meant, because that's not it at all.

We've seen a huge change it our societies attitudes about gay people (as just one example) over the last 20 years or so. It's not, IMHO, mostly because of inspiring oration or religious moralizing, etc. It's not mostly because of pride parades, IMHO (although I have marched in pride parades--I'm not saying people shouldn't). I think it's mostly because people have just realized that they were wrong about the issue.

The bloviating from the religious right, to me, is mostly just reactionary bluster in response to a battle they know that they have already lost--that's the kind of clanging cymbal I'm talking about. I didn't mean to suggest that activism is ineffective.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 4:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I agree with your last paragraph.

The earlier one though .. There's no way in the world that the last 20-30 years of change in social attitudes towards LGBT people has merely coincided with things like gay pride parades. Western culture has had several thousand years of no gay pride parades, and very homophobic attitudes.

It's when, and only when, courageous people have stood up and said "THIS is who I am/we are, and it is NOT ok to demean and marginalized me/us" that social changes have really begun.

Take a look at the chronology of the church and it's attitude towards things like divorce, for example. Those changes didn't come thru quiet passivity.

The history of this nation illustrates the same.

And, fwiw, I'm not saying multi-pronged strategies don't have their place. They do. Obviously to foster social change, we typically need hand on deck, and those hands will all do different jobs.

But in virtually every significant change I can think of, it started with, and only with, people being loud.

And I think with the general "noise" in our culture today, with technology, etc, that's only going to be heightened, not lessened.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 7:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think that before the 60s gays were far more closeted than they have become since. When MANY more people came to find people they  were gay they were compelled to become more accepting. In this country the backlash is IMO a last gasp as the dominoes [states] are falling with greater frequency.

I applaud the Arch Bishop given he's now on Uganda's poop list.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 05 2014, 11:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Jan. 04 2014, 8:45 pm)
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How could he get it so wrong? And why is there no outcry from the left about this guy and what he said? I mean, I'm sure he believes what he says, and he's just paraphrasing JC's message .... Maybe ole man Phil and Lamebeaver and Three should sit him down and set him 'straight'.

http://youtu.be/9YdSbvp1UUk

Not really sure his bottom line.  Much of what he is literally saying I agree with but if he's implying God thinks homosexual behavior or heterosexual acts outside of marriage or divorce  for causes outside of infidelity are not sin, I don't need to "sit down and set him (the bishop) straight"...he just needs to get a Bible and read it.

We are all sinners in need of a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ.    Existence sets before us life and death and God wants us to choose Life.   But if I see another choosing death, is it not the loving option to warn him or her and not just say "whatever floats your boat"?

QUOTE
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
John 3:16-19
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 06 2014, 5:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Jan. 05 2014, 7:01 pm)
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(Walkinman @ Jan. 04 2014, 8:45 pm)
QUOTE
How could he get it so wrong? And why is there no outcry from the left about this guy and what he said? I mean, I'm sure he believes what he says, and he's just paraphrasing JC's message .... Maybe ole man Phil and Lamebeaver and Three should sit him down and set him 'straight'.

http://youtu.be/9YdSbvp1UUk

Not really sure his bottom line.  Much of what he is literally saying I agree with but if he's implying God thinks homosexual behavior or heterosexual acts outside of marriage or divorce  for causes outside of infidelity are not sin, I don't need to "sit down and set him (the bishop) straight"...he just needs to get a Bible and read it.

Three

I'd suggest the archbishop is implying that god thinks no less of homosexuals than he does of jewish people, or buddhists, or atheists or white folks, or brown people, or anyone else on this planet. Maybe you need to get a bible and read it. Or have someone read it to you.

If ole pedoPhil had said homosexuals are sinful like women who divorce their abusive husbands, I doubt the right would've raised up their sheet covered fists and hollered through their hoods about the rights of free speech. If ole pedoPhil had said homosexuals are sinners like jews and people who have an interracial marriage, I doubt he'd have upset too many on the left. But folks like you and your ilk don't say that. What you like to do is lump homosexuals in with villains .. the pedophiles, murderers, rapists, and thieves. And that is problematic. What you do is try to somehow differentiate yourself from these 'sinners', and stand, righteously, above the fold. And that is ridiculous and arrogant and, ironically, another sin.

Your own clutches at some kind of feigned moral high ground is, in that book you love to throw at people, precisely the kind of thing that Jesus DID get upset about; on more than one occasion. And I think that might well be the message the archbishop is offering you here.


(Three @ Jan. 05 2014, 7:01 pm)
QUOTE
We are all sinners in need of a Savior and that Savior is Jesus Christ.    Existence sets before us life and death and God wants us to choose Life.   But if I see another choosing death, is it not the loving option to warn him or her and not just say "whatever floats your boat"?

QUOTE
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
John 3:16-19


The loving option is to tell others how to live their lives? That's not love, that's control. In fact, it's a form of violence against them.

If you love someone, you accept them as they are. Trying to coerce other people to be someone they're not, to be someone you want them to be, or want yourself to be, is quite the opposite of love.

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just look into my eyes"

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- Dream of the Blue Turtle, 1985


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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 06 2014, 11:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't see any problem with his message.  God wants all people to be saved.
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(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 06 2014, 11:02 am)
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I don't see any problem with his message.  God wants all people to be saved.

One of the more condescending aspects of Christianity is that those who aren't members of that particular religion are "lost" and in need of "saving."  Save yourself.
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(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 06 2014, 11:02 am)
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I don't see any problem with his message.  God wants all people to be saved.

Which "God"?
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 9:19 am)
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(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 06 2014, 11:02 am)
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I don't see any problem with his message.  God wants all people to be saved.

One of the more condescending aspects of Christianity is that those who aren't members of that particular religion are "lost" and in need of "saving."  Save yourself.

I understand this sentiment, but your statement is not correct, FWIW.

It is not an aspect of Christianity that non-Christians are "lost" and in need of "saving." What is an aspect of Christianity is that *all* people, Christians, Jews, Rastafarians, Agnostics, Barack Obama, Justin Bieber, etc., are "lost" and in need of "saving."

(Of course, there can be, and is, quite a bit of variance on what "lost" and "saving" mean, but they apply to everyone in Christian theology, not just non-Christians.)
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:27 am)
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It is not an aspect of Christianity that non-Christians are "lost" and in need of "saving." What is an aspect of Christianity is that *all* people, Christians, Jews, Rastafarians, Agnostics, Barack Obama, Justin Bieber, etc., are "lost" and in need of "saving."

Except of course themselves because they've already been saved by being members of the correct clan. It's not a position of humbleness to say, "Hey I was just like you but now I'm saved because I believe what I think you should believe and you're lost because you don't agree with my opinion."
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 9:31 am)
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:27 am)
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It is not an aspect of Christianity that non-Christians are "lost" and in need of "saving." What is an aspect of Christianity is that *all* people, Christians, Jews, Rastafarians, Agnostics, Barack Obama, Justin Bieber, etc., are "lost" and in need of "saving."

Except of course themselves because they've already been saved by being members of the correct clan. It's not a position of humbleness to say, "Hey I was just like you but now I'm saved because I believe what I think you should believe and you're lost because you don't agree with my opinion."

Except that, in Christian theology, no one is saved by being part of the correct clan.

Yes, some Christians err by thinking that way. And some of them are very self-righteous and annoying about it.

But the Christian texts are very clear: all are in need of salvation, and all receive it through grace.

In these kinds of discussions, it might be helpful to be more specific. If you'd initially railed against those who distort Christianity by acting as if only those outside their clan are in need of salvation, then I'd have been right there with you.
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:38 am)
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But the Christian texts are very clear: all are in need of salvation, and all receive it through grace.

The texts are just texts. Nothing more, unless you choose to them to believe so. Doesn't matter where the motivation comes from to think others are lost. If you believe you are saved for accepting the texts at face value, and those who do not accept the texts as the word of God are lost, then it doesn't lessen the condescension.
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 9:46 am)
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:38 am)
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But the Christian texts are very clear: all are in need of salvation, and all receive it through grace.

The texts are just texts. Nothing more, unless you choose to them to believe so. Doesn't matter where the motivation comes from to think others are lost. If you believe you are saved for accepting the texts at face value, and those who do not accept the texts as the word of God are lost, then it doesn't lessen the condescension.

I can see that this discussion is going nowhere. But you may want to remind yourself of what the word "grace" actually means, because I think that is the crux of this discussion. There's nothing exclusionary or condescending about believing in God's universal grace, IMHO.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 07 2014, 11:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Do you believe you, as a Christian, are in need of salvation? Or are you already saved?
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:37 am)
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Do you believe you, as a Christian, are in need of salvation? Or are you already saved?

Yes and yes--whatever "being saved" means, I believe that everyone needs it and everyone already has it--that's what "grace" means. I don't believe that being a Christian "earns" me anything that everyone else doesn't have.

Whatever God is and whatever it is that God offers to people, I believe it is offered equally to all.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 07 2014, 11:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If you don't believe the bible is anything more than a bunch of fairy tales, and that God probably doesn't exist, then further discussion of grace and salvation is rather pointless.
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 9:43 am)
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:37 am)
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Do you believe you, as a Christian, are in need of salvation? Or are you already saved?

Yes and yes--whatever "being saved" means, I believe that everyone needs it and everyone already has it--that's what "grace" means. I don't believe that being a Christian "earns" me anything that everyone else doesn't have.

Whatever God is and whatever it is that God offers to people, I believe it is offered equally to all.

But not necessarily accepted by all...

John 3:16
Mark 16:16
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 07 2014, 11:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 07 2014, 11:45 am)
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If you don't believe the bible is anything more than a bunch of fairy tales, and that God probably doesn't exist, then further discussion of grace and salvation is rather pointless.

Ditto if you believe it's the word of some god.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 07 2014, 11:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jan. 07 2014, 11:46 am)
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(cweston @ Jan. 07 2014, 9:43 am)
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(HighGravity @ Jan. 07 2014, 10:37 am)
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Do you believe you, as a Christian, are in need of salvation? Or are you already saved?

Yes and yes--whatever "being saved" means, I believe that everyone needs it and everyone already has it--that's what "grace" means. I don't believe that being a Christian "earns" me anything that everyone else doesn't have.

Whatever God is and whatever it is that God offers to people, I believe it is offered equally to all.

But not necessarily accepted by all...

So CWeston, since you have a different take on Christianity than most, do you see this statement from LB as condescending? He seems to be disagreeing with your statement that all are in need of salvation and all already have it.  He seems to be agreeing with my statement that Christianity makes the claim that all need it but only those who accept Christianity as the one true religion receive it.
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