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Topic: I Arizona didn't exist, Russia would have to invent it< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 21 2014, 5:39 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

so there'd be something to make Putin look good.

http://www.cnn.com/2014....t=hp_c2

"(CNN) -- Arizona's Legislature has passed a controversial bill that would allow business owners, as long as they assert their religious beliefs, to deny service to gay and lesbian customers...."

Waiting on Brewer's signature.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 21 2014, 5:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Meanwhile in Georgia:

Confederate License Plate

And Mississippi:

Noose put on statue

Not to be outdone, in Kansas:

Spanking kids til they bruise is OK?

Guess this takes the heat off of SC, TN and Florida for a few days.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 5:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I guess this will help AZ businesses weed out their excess customers.  It's unclear how to correctly identify who is legal to exclude, so I suppose "different" people in general would be fair game.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 8:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

From the article:
QUOTE
The bill is being pushed by the Center for Arizona Policy, a conservative group opposed to abortion and same-sex marriage. The group has justified the measure on grounds that the proposal protects people against increasingly activist federal courts.

"As we witness hostility towards people of faith grow like never before, we must take this opportunity to speak up for religious liberty," the group said on its website, asking people to contact Brewer and urge her to sign the bill. "The great news is that SB 1062 protects your right to live and work according to your faith."

Cathi Herrod, the center's president, told CNN on Friday, "The Arizona bill has a very simple premise, that Americans should be free to live and work according to their religious faith. It's simply about protecting religious liberty and nothing else."

Herrod said the bill's opponents are "showing unbelievable hostility toward religious beliefs."

"America still stands for the principle that religious beliefs matter (for) something in this country, that we have the right to freely exercise our religious beliefs," she said.

Are churches being forcibly shuttered, and are people being prevented from praying and worshipping? If so, I strongly condemn such religious persecution.

However, from what I can tell, the proposed bill isn't about the free exercise of religious belief; it's about legalizing discrimination -- a backwards step on the path of liberty and justice. If a core tenet of their religious belief is discrimination, hostility towards them is understandable.

I'm curious; do religious folk have a well-developed and very accurate gaydar? I doubt it; perhaps gay people should be required to wear some insignia (akin to the yellow start of David) so the truly devout can more freely exercise their religion.

Of course, such freedom to deny service based on religion or one's moral principles in general should be granted to all citizens. Someone who is truly appalled at such a discriminatory religion should be free to deny service to Christians, who can sometimes be identified by a cross on a necklace.

I'm not sure where all this ends, but it is ugly. Who would Jesus refuse to serve?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 11:32 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm starting to see the age old conflict between state's rights and federal law in a new light. State's rights is all about "we want to be stupid in our own unique way," vs. "we should all be stupid together." I have more faith in the federal model when it comes to the rights of individuals, because states are more easily corrupted through cronyism. The problem with the feds, is that at that level there is a lot of money and sophistication in the cronyism.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 12:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

C'mon guys, be fair.  They're just working hard to protect our constitutional rights to discriminate against anyone we don't like for whatever reason.  It's clearly laid out in Amendment 42 1/2.  Let freedom ring!

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 12:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is inherently no different than businesses that prohibit lawfully licensed gun owners from carrying firearms in their stores.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 12:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Obviously.  Walking into a store while gay is exactly like walking into a store with a gun.  No difference at all.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 12:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Both are Constitutional protected.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 1:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Sir, before I can offer you this service I need you to complete this short survey and wait a few minutes while we run it through the ADA (Arizona Discrimination Administration) database."

How many times will a citizen be denied before they must choose between entering a reeducation center, or having their drivers license revoked and being dropped at the nearest state line?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 1:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A gay man, an illegal alien and Joe Arpaio walk into a bar in Arizona........
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 2:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 22 2014, 12:39 pm)
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This is inherently no different than businesses that prohibit lawfully licensed gun owners from carrying firearms in their stores.

Jeezusgodalmighty. Does the lunacy ever end with this guy?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 3:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Feb. 22 2014, 11:29 am)
QUOTE

(Montanalonewolf @ Feb. 22 2014, 12:39 pm)
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This is inherently no different than businesses that prohibit lawfully licensed gun owners from carrying firearms in their stores.

Jeezusgodalmighty. Does the lunacy ever end with this guy?

Asked and answered?

Plus drunks driving and killing people because, well, laws against that don't stop it do they?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 22 2014, 5:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The AZ legislature must be nostalgic for the Super Bowl XXVII boycott over their attempted nullification of the  Martin Luther King, Jr. National Holiday.  With next year's Super Bowl coming up in Phoenix, they needed to get something new on the books to alienate visitors.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 7:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sooo, does this mean bouncers at the church door? The hardware store? Armed, of course.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 10:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

They would have to be armed with strong gaydar.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Unless they buy Gaydar,  how will they recognize who is gay?

Surely there's a field guide somewhere?

(dang, I may have just thought of  a plan that could make me millions).


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 3:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Feb. 23 2014, 8:48 am)
QUOTE
Unless they buy Gaydar,  how will they recognize who is gay?

Surely there's a field guide somewhere?

(dang, I may have just thought of  a plan that could make me millions).

Please, this is the 21st century: there should be an app for that. Simply aim the phone at the alleged "customer" and the algorithms do the rest.

Science, that's the future of getting back to that oh so sweet bigoted past.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 3:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Nets just signed Jason Collins.   Their last scheduled game with the Suns this year is in Brooklyn, so he doesn't have to worry about finding a hotel room just yet.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 8:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 23 2014, 3:02 pm)
QUOTE

(Old Frank @ Feb. 23 2014, 8:48 am)
QUOTE
Unless they buy Gaydar,  how will they recognize who is gay?

Surely there's a field guide somewhere?

(dang, I may have just thought of  a plan that could make me millions).

Please, this is the 21st century: there should be an app for that. Simply aim the phone at the alleged "customer" and the algorithms do the rest.

Science, that's the future of getting back to that oh so sweet bigoted past.

Hard copy is still nice.  

"Old Frank's Gay Guide".  Coming soon.

Already started a lisp...I mean, list....of sure-fire identifiers.

-weep at weddings
-favorite color is pink
-enjoy flowers
-prefer Poodles to Dobermans

I'm on a roll.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 8:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok...time for some questions.....

Should the Jewish owner of a kosher deli be required to serve ham sandwiches?

Should  the Muslim owner of a halal restaurant be required to serve pork BBQ?

Should a vegetarian restaurant be forced to serve bratwurst?

Should an  atheist bookstore be forced to sell prayer books if a customer wants them?

If the owners say no, should the government fine them heavily or force them to shut down?
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 8:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Feb. 23 2014, 8:34 pm)
QUOTE
Ok...time for some questions.....

Should the Jewish owner of a kosher deli be required to serve ham sandwiches?

Should  the Muslim owner of a halal restaurant be required to serve pork BBQ?

Should a vegetarian restaurant be forced to serve bratwurst?

Should an  atheist bookstore be forced to sell prayer books if a customer wants them?

If the owners say no, should the government fine them heavily or force them to shut down?

Your examples all have the same flaw: they have to do with what is being sold rather than who may be allowed to buy whatever is being sold.  

Should the kosher deli or halal restaurant  be allowed to refuse to serve Christians?  Should the vegetarian restaurant be allowed to turn away omnivores stopping in for a meat-free meal?  Should an atheist bookstore be allowed to refuse Christian customers?  Those are the equivalent questions.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 8:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1 to BL.

This is the 21st century bigot's version of "Whites Only" signs hanging in shop windows.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 10:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Feb. 23 2014, 8:41 pm)
QUOTE

(Three @ Feb. 23 2014, 8:34 pm)
QUOTE
Ok...time for some questions.....

Should the Jewish owner of a kosher deli be required to serve ham sandwiches?

Should  the Muslim owner of a halal restaurant be required to serve pork BBQ?

Should a vegetarian restaurant be forced to serve bratwurst?

Should an  atheist bookstore be forced to sell prayer books if a customer wants them?

If the owners say no, should the government fine them heavily or force them to shut down?

Your examples all have the same flaw: they have to do with what is being sold rather than who may be allowed to buy whatever is being sold.  

Should the kosher deli or halal restaurant  be allowed to refuse to serve Christians?  Should the vegetarian restaurant be allowed to turn away omnivores stopping in for a meat-free meal?  Should an atheist bookstore be allowed to refuse Christian customers?  Those are the equivalent questions.

Disagree.  

The cases in Colorado, New Mexico, Washington, and Oregon involve business owners declining to provide wedding cakes (two grooms on top presumably) or photography to homosexual or lesbian "weddings".

Compelling a business owner to affirm homosexual "weddings" against the business owners' faith or conscience is exactly the same as compelling a kosher deli to serve ham upon a customer's request.

Or perhaps like compelling a Jewish owner of a kosher deli to cater a holocaust denier convention.

If homosexuals want to force business owners to affirm homosexual behavior against their religious beliefs, the homosexual lobby should be up front and work to repeal the First Amendment and its guarantees of religious liberty.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 10:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Feb. 23 2014, 4:34 pm)
QUOTE
Ok...time for some questions.....

Should the Jewish owner of a kosher deli be required to serve ham sandwiches?

Should  the Muslim owner of a halal restaurant be required to serve pork BBQ?

Should a vegetarian restaurant be forced to serve bratwurst?

Should an  atheist bookstore be forced to sell prayer books if a customer wants them?

If the owners say no, should the government fine them heavily or force them to shut down?

Can you show me where your religion says anything about the sin of selling gay people a pair of shoes?

Should a JP be allowed to refuse to certify a marriage between a catholic and a protestant? Or a black man and his white fiancee?

And just wtf is an 'atheist bookstore'?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A public business sells their wares and services to the public, ALL the public, or they close up and move to someplace that still allows such, here we've got equal protection under the law. Equal being the operative term: no " Irish need not apply". Not anymore.

Does my cardiac surgeon friend get to decline to provide life saving heart surgery to some while she saves other's lives with the exact same procedure based on race or religion of the patient? Not in this countty. And I'm very thankful for that. When she saves the life of some evangelical wackjob she's not "affirming" religious zealotry masquerading as overly pious demands for an American theocratic dictatorship: she's repairing a failing organ in a human being that is her patient.

A baker bakes cakes and cookies, "affirm"? Get over yourself, you're a cook.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Feb. 23 2014, 6:40 pm)
QUOTE
[quote=big_load,Feb. 23 2014, 8:41 pm]
Disagree.  

The cases in Colorado, New Mexico, Washington, and Oregon involve business owners declining to provide wedding cakes (two grooms on top presumably) or photography to homosexual or lesbian "weddings".

Compelling a business owner to affirm homosexual "weddings" against the business owners' faith or conscience is exactly the same as compelling a kosher deli to serve ham upon a customer's request.

Or perhaps like compelling a Jewish owner of a kosher deli to cater a holocaust denier convention.

If homosexuals want to force business owners to affirm homosexual behavior against their religious beliefs, the homosexual lobby should be up front and work to repeal the First Amendment and its guarantees of religious liberty.

Selling someone a cake is an affirmation of their behavior?

Notwithstanding the utterly absurd reduction of a person, or a person's sexuality, to 'their behavior', you're effectively (and incorrectly) asserting that a christian CEO of an organization like, say, EXXON, should be allowed to fire someone because they're jewish or islamic. And, of course, vice versa.

You're OK with that? Or are you just a bigoted idiot?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Feb. 23 2014, 10:57 pm)
QUOTE

(Three @ Feb. 23 2014, 4:34 pm)
QUOTE
Ok...time for some questions.....

Should the Jewish owner of a kosher deli be required to serve ham sandwiches?

Should  the Muslim owner of a halal restaurant be required to serve pork BBQ?

Should a vegetarian restaurant be forced to serve bratwurst?

Should an  atheist bookstore be forced to sell prayer books if a customer wants them?

If the owners say no, should the government fine them heavily or force them to shut down?

Can you show me where your religion says anything about the sin of selling gay people a pair of shoes?

Should a JP be allowed to refuse to certify a marriage between a catholic and a protestant? Or a black man and his white fiancee?

And just wtf is an 'atheist bookstore'?

Have there been cases of refusing to sell homosexuals shoes?

Your JP question is not a good analogy as the discussion is about affirmation of homosexual "marriage".

An atheist bookstore (on the web)
http://www.thinkatheist.com/radiostore
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There is a pretty big difference between selling cake or taking pictures and performing a marriage.    The attempt to define every business transaction as protected religious activity is quite an overreach.   It smells a lot more like trying to execute your interpretation of divine judgment.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2014, 11:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Feb. 23 2014, 7:00 pm)
QUOTE
A public business sells their wares and services to the public, ALL the public, or they close up and move to someplace that still allows such, here we've got equal protection under the law. Equal being the operative term: no " Irish need not apply". Not anymore.

Does my cardiac surgeon friend get to decline to provide life saving heart surgery to some while she saves other's lives with the exact same procedure based on race or religion of the patient? Not in this countty. And I'm very thankful for that. When she saves the life of some evangelical wackjob she's not "affirming" religious zealotry masquerading as overly pious demands for an American theocratic dictatorship: she's repairing a failing organ in a human being that is her patient.

A baker bakes cakes and cookies, "affirm"? Get over yourself, you're a cook.

^This^.

The second a gay nurse or EMT refuses to save the life of some sorry xian bigot like Three, he and his ilk will be all upset about wrong this is.

Three, I know you don't like gay people; that's silly, but it's not about to change, so moving right along ….

the idea that we embrace discrimination on the grounds that you, or I, or anyone else, doesn't "approve" of someone's gender, their sexuality, their race, their religious belief or their age or the level to which they may or may not be 'disabled' is simply awful. And the ONLY reason you're implying you support this situation is because is you don't like gay people; so don't make up dishonest arguments about Kosher food .. because lying, well, that ain't kosher either.


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