SUBSCRIBE | NEWSLETTERS | MAPS | VIDEOS | BLOGS | MARKETPLACE | CONTESTS
TRY BACKPACKER FREE!
SUBSCRIBE NOW and get
2 Free Issues and 3 Free Gifts!
Full Name:
Address 1:
Address 2:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Email: (required)
If I like it and decide to continue, I'll pay just $12.00, and receive a full one-year subscription (9 issues in all), a 73% savings off the newsstand price! If for any reason I decide not to continue, I'll write "cancel" on the invoice and owe nothing.
Your subscription includes 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Or click here to pay now and get 2 extra issues
Offer valid in US only.


» Welcome Guest
[ Log In :: Register ]

Page 1 of 512345>>

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]

reply to topic new topic new poll
Topic: Religious Liberty and Freedom of Conscience< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
Three Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1082
Joined: Dec. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 6:33 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Worth a watch IMHO.  Washington State coercing florist over her convictions on same-sex "marriage".

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MDETkcCw63c&feature=youtu.be
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 2
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43967
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 6:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Washington State enforcing non-discrimination laws regarding commercial activity?

Other than human sacrifice I expect Washington State couldn't care less about her private  religious convictions. She is free to not marry a woman any time she so feels the spirit. But commercial businesses follow commercial laws. Health, safety, public accommodation and all.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 3
Scot Search for posts by this member.
Some light Slayer please...
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1617
Joined: May 2008
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 7:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I would never set foot in that bigots store. Such a hypocrite... I HIGHlY doubt her "Jesus" would agree with her.

Now, I fully support her decision and believe it should be legal for her to turn away whatever business she wants to.

It's pathetic that the people are suing her and the government is getting involved.

If I was that gay couple, I would never talk to her again, find a pro- gay shop and promote the hell out of it.


--------------
The tree of liberty must be renewed from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots for it is its natural manure
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 4
TigerFan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2731
Joined: May 2010
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 8:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Mar. 14 2014, 7:48 pm)
QUOTE
Now, I fully support her decision and believe it should be legal for her to turn away whatever business she wants to.

It's pathetic that the people are suing her and the government is getting involved.

Would you support her decision if she turned away a black customer?

Why is it pathetic that the government is getting involved?  Doesn't it have an obligation to ensure that people aren't discriminated against?


--------------
Duct tape is like the Force.  It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 5
GoBlueHiker Search for posts by this member.
Obsessive Island Hopper...
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16552
Joined: Jul. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 10:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gov't ended up being needed to overturn a generation of Jim Crow laws in the South that legalized racial segregation in every aspect of society.  One may ideologically disagree with "government getting onvolved" in anything, but one must also acknowledge that, were that entirely the case, we'd still have a huge number of "Whites Only" businesses in our country and separate schools & public facilities for whites and minorities.  Many states would still allow slaveholders too... states' rights and all.  That'd hardly be a better society today.  The old gatekeepers of power don't like to give it up voluntarily, even if their policies are blatantly unfair and discriminatory.

It's a little naive to treat these issues with shallow "bumper sticker" ideologies which assume that unfair power structures will change all by themselves in favor of those being discriminated against if you do nothing at all.  Doesn't work that way historically.


--------------
Wealth needs more.  Happiness needs less.  Simplify.

www.RainForestTreks.com
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 6
GoBlueHiker Search for posts by this member.
Obsessive Island Hopper...
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16552
Joined: Jul. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To address the OP, there's nothing religious about selling flowers, any more than selling windshield wiper blades at an auto parts store or coffee at a Starbucks.  There is no constitutional "freedom of conscience" when "conscience" is just being used as a bastardized pseudonym for blanket discrimination in commerce that has no actual basis in religion.

"Who would Jesus kick out of the store?"


--------------
Wealth needs more.  Happiness needs less.  Simplify.

www.RainForestTreks.com
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 7
High_Sierra_Fan Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 43967
Joined: Aug. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 14 2014, 11:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Or Pope Francis.....
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 8
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 7:08 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Three

Is the reason you empathize with her simply the fact that she cries in the advert you linked?

Her religious liberty is no more impeded than it would be if she refused to sell flowers to a black couple, or a Jewish couple. Crying about it doesn't make it any less discriminatory, or any less wrong.


--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 9
Three Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1082
Joined: Dec. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TigerFan @ Mar. 14 2014, 8:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Scot @ Mar. 14 2014, 7:48 pm)
QUOTE
Now, I fully support her decision and believe it should be legal for her to turn away whatever business she wants to.

It's pathetic that the people are suing her and the government is getting involved.

Would you support her decision if she turned away a black customer?

Why is it pathetic that the government is getting involved?  Doesn't it have an obligation to ensure that people aren't discriminated against?

I guess your question was to Scot.   But I'll answer for myself.

No I would not support her decision to turn a black customer away.   Race is a morally neutral characteristic based on birth.

Homosexuality "marriage" is an act/behavior and contrary to thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teaching thus a religious liberty basis for not wanting to provide services for it is well grounded.

No race and homosexuality are not equivalent and it is insulting to suggest so.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 10
cweston Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2900
Joined: Mar. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:22 am)
QUOTE
I guess your question was to Scot.   But I'll answer for myself.

No I would not support her decision to turn a black customer away.   Race is a morally neutral characteristic based on birth.

So, then, if science could show that people were born homosexual, then what would you think? Then the race analogy would be a 100% perfect fit. Would it still be OK to discriminate against gay people?

QUOTE
Homosexuality "marriage" is an act/behavior and contrary to thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teaching thus a religious liberty basis for not wanting to provide services for it is well grounded.

No race and homosexuality are not equivalent and it is insulting to suggest so.


You crack me up, although it's really not funny at all, to be serious. It's not insulting for you to say that gay people have chosen to be gay, or that their behavior is an abomination before God, but it is insulting to suggest that discrimination against gay people is analogous to discrimination against black people?

You have odd ideas about what is or isn't insulting. Just because you word it politely doesn't mean it isn't insulting.

Also, just because it says something in the Bible...I assume you don't discriminate against people who eat shellfish, or who charge interest on loans, or women who cut their hair short and speak up in church, or men whose testicles are crushed (and so on). If I assume correctly, then your choice to wish to discriminate against gays is *your* choice, not God's or the Bible's.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 11
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 19508
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Providing flowers for a wedding is typically not just an over the counter transaction.  The florist works closely with the bride and groom, delivers the flowers to the church and reception hall. arranges them.  Makes adjustments.  Learns the details of the wedding, sees the bridesmaids dresses, etc.  It's pretty involved.

There are plenty of florists who openly advertise that they support same sex marriage.  There are web sites that advertise bakers, wedding planners, receptions halls that support same sex marriage.

So why would a gay couple specifically choose a florist they know is offended by their beliefs?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 12
cweston Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2900
Joined: Mar. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:51 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:39 am)
QUOTE
There are plenty of florists who openly advertise that they support same sex marriage.  There we web sites that advertise bakers, wedding planners, receptions halls that support same sex marriage.

So why would a gay couple specifically choose a florist they know is offended by their beliefs?

According to the video, the person getting married had been a friend and long-term multiple repeat customer of the florist in question.

So it makes perfect sense that he would ask her to do the flowers. Apparently he had misread her to the extent that maybe he'd have not asked had he knew that her response would be to refuse.

Of course these cases are difficult on a personal level. I'd rather not see people get sued and lose their businesses. I'd also rather not see people discriminating against others under the ruse of religion freedom. And, perhaps most of all, I'd rather not see religious leaders fomenting this sort of thing with bad theology and hateful teaching.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 13
cweston Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2900
Joined: Mar. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:39 am)
QUOTE
There are plenty of florists who openly advertise that they support same sex marriage.  There are web sites that advertise bakers, wedding planners, receptions halls that support same sex marriage.

And if I were part of a same-sex couple getting married, I'd certainly go out of my way to patronize those establishments.

But, the historical precedent is also that we consider discriminatory business practices unacceptable. There were plenty of lunch counters that would serve blacks, after all.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 14
double cabin Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16701
Joined: Nov. 2005
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 2:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The woman's religious freedom has unequivocally not been breached. She's free to stop serving everyone anytime she so chooses. She's not free to discriminate in the public market place for discrimination is unequivocally unAmerican. There's always Nigeria if you don't want to be an American Three.

--------------
We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.

http://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=129511480442251
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 15
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 19508
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What about the right of a private educational institution to charge whatever tuition they want, and accept any student who chooses to enroll?
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 16
Drift Woody Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6648
Joined: Feb. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:38 am)
QUOTE
Also, just because it says something in the Bible...I assume you don't discriminate against people who eat shellfish, or who charge interest on loans, or women who cut their hair short and speak up in church, or men whose testicles are crushed (and so on). If I assume correctly, then your choice to wish to discriminate against gays is *your* choice, not God's or the Bible's.

No matter how many times this is pointed out to Three and his ilk, they cling to their very selective interpretation of the bible while ignoring everything else that does not validate their bigotry against gays.

Bottom line, they're simply grasping at a rationalization to paint their prejudice with a veneer of piety.


--------------
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children.
-- Native American proverb
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 17
Old Frank Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sep. 2007
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Another Christian using Christianity as an excuse to be un-Christian.

--------------
My favorite compliment: "GrandPa, I've seen other old men, and their faces are a whole lot cruddier than yours is".
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 18
Lamebeaver Search for posts by this member.
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 19508
Joined: Aug. 2004
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Mar. 15 2014, 2:42 pm)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:38 am)
QUOTE
Also, just because it says something in the Bible...I assume you don't discriminate against people who eat shellfish, or who charge interest on loans, or women who cut their hair short and speak up in church, or men whose testicles are crushed (and so on). If I assume correctly, then your choice to wish to discriminate against gays is *your* choice, not God's or the Bible's.

No matter how many times this is pointed out to Three and his ilk, they cling to their very selective interpretation of the bible while ignoring everything else that does not validate their bigotry against gays.

Bottom line, they're simply grasping at a rationalization to paint their prejudice with a veneer of piety.

Seems like you're the one selectively interpreting the Bible.....
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 19
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2014, 5:39 am)
QUOTE
Providing flowers for a wedding is typically not just an over the counter transaction.  The florist works closely with the bride and groom, delivers the flowers to the church and reception hall. arranges them.  Makes adjustments.  Learns the details of the wedding, sees the bridesmaids dresses, etc.  It's pretty involved.

There are plenty of florists who openly advertise that they support same sex marriage.  There are web sites that advertise bakers, wedding planners, receptions halls that support same sex marriage.

So why would a gay couple specifically choose a florist they know is offended by their beliefs?

This might be the new dumbest post ever in the TPA.

Designing a house for someone is typically not just an over the counter transaction. An architect works closely with a couple when s/he designs their house. It's pretty involved.

There are plenty of architects who openly advertise that they support same sex couples. ...


--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 20
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Mar. 15 2014, 5:22 am)
QUOTE

(TigerFan @ Mar. 14 2014, 8:56 pm)
QUOTE

(Scot @ Mar. 14 2014, 7:48 pm)
QUOTE
Now, I fully support her decision and believe it should be legal for her to turn away whatever business she wants to.

It's pathetic that the people are suing her and the government is getting involved.

Would you support her decision if she turned away a black customer?

Why is it pathetic that the government is getting involved?  Doesn't it have an obligation to ensure that people aren't discriminated against?

I guess your question was to Scot.   But I'll answer for myself.

No I would not support her decision to turn a black customer away.   Race is a morally neutral characteristic based on birth.

Homosexuality "marriage" is an act/behavior and contrary to thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teaching thus a religious liberty basis for not wanting to provide services for it is well grounded.

No race and homosexuality are not equivalent and it is insulting to suggest so.

Inter-racial marriage is similarly an act/behavior and contrary to thousands of years of Judeo-Christian teaching. So too is interfaith marriage. I'm sure you'll ignore this point.

Religious choice is, according to your bible, not a morally neutral choice at all .. but a very harmful one. Why would you support her choice to not sell flowers to Buddhists? I'm sure you'll ignore this one as well.

Race and sexuality are perfectly analogous. There is absolutely no moral basis for a belief in discriminating against people on either of those characteristics, and it is immoral and insulting that you suggest otherwise. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Those who ignore everything around them remain ignorant.


--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 21
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 15 2014, 12:47 pm)
QUOTE
Seems like you're the one selectively interpreting the Bible.....

So you DO think gay people should be put to death then?

--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 22
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lame - I thought you said you weren't going to enter these conversations any more? Isn't lying a sin?

--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 23
GoBlueHiker Search for posts by this member.
Obsessive Island Hopper...
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 16552
Joined: Jul. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 4:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

African-Americans used to have plenty of places they could eat food, go to school and take a drink of water.  They knew where those places were.  Why did they insist on using the same places the whites used?

It always makes those in power squirm when others they see as inferior to themselves refuse to stay in their place.  How history repeats itself.


--------------
Wealth needs more.  Happiness needs less.  Simplify.

www.RainForestTreks.com
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 24
ol-zeke Search for posts by this member.
Clear Creek
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 5:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Everyone is free to have any religious belief they wish.  That is what religious liberty is all about.

What they are not free to do is violate a law based on an interpretation of their belief, especially when many other members of their own sect can be found to not hold the same interpretation.

When a person opts to start a business, they effectively agree to abide by the laws of the community and the nation.  When they stop doing so, the proper authority steps in to enforce those rules, regulations, and laws.  

Seems pretty simple to me.  The Governor of a state once blocked the doors of a state university, in full expression of his beliefs.  The US military enforced the civic peace when the Governor was told to stand aside.


--------------
Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.

"I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth."  Steve McQueen
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 25
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 5:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This entire topic, of course, has nothing to do with Three's concern for religious liberty, as Three's concern for such only extends to his own religious belief - no one else's. It's nothing more than a facade he hides his bigotry behind. I asked a relevant question in the thread on the Dalai Lama and Three, of course, avoided the entire discussion (as did every other of the Christian gay haters here, except Kenv), simply because he couldn't care less about actual religious liberty .. his interest is simply the justification of his own backward hatred towards people he knows nothing about.

--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
 Post Number: 26
Gabby Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 6501
Joined: Jun. 2006
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 5:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I hardly need to add to what's already been said. Someone who doesn't see the take in the OP as seriously wrong is living inside a fantasy world in which only they have access to "the truth" or "the one true religion" or "the one true god" - and, because of this fantastic perception, get to impose their view of reality on everyone else. Even though a large portion of the world doesn't agree with you, it's not a popularity contest. Nor is it consistent with "freedom". Acceptance of the supremacy of your system of belief is not consistent with religious freedom, which is, by the way, at least one of the most important principles upon which our little "community" was founded. You wanna play in the "community", you have to play by the rules of the community. You want respect for your beliefs, you have to respect those of others.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 27
Three Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 1082
Joined: Dec. 2011
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think we've been over this ground before.

The Old Testament Law was the civil and criminal law for national Israel.

The New Testament is the final authoritative revelation for Christians.

Understanding this distinction might require a level of nuance that seems rare on TPA.  

Both the Old and New Testament teach the God's ideal for marriage is one man, one woman for life and any sex outside of marriage is wrong, whether it be heterosexual or some other sexual practice.

Religious freedom means you can live your faith 24/7, not just in whispers outside of public view.  Interestingly,sex outside of marriage used to happen in the shadows.  Now it, including forms of sexual perversion, is paraded and the push is for those who may have deep convictions of faith and traditional morality to only be able to practice it behind closed doors.

I wish Baronelle Stutzman success; am considering donating to ADF to help her case.   I guess it will give some a great degree of pleasure to put this gentle lady out of business.

Should Washington State decide that it will sacrifice religious liberty on the altar of compulsory affirmation of  homosexual behavior,  I would invite Baronelle to move to, and reopen her business in, a part of America that is still free.

Best regards,
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 28
ol-zeke Search for posts by this member.
Clear Creek
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 13064
Joined: Sep. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 9:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

None of those particular writings are the Law of the USA, and the entire nation is the land of the freedom to worship as you choose.  You just don't get to push your religious beliefs onto others.  Moving will only help for a very short time.  All states will get to the same place soon.  

--------------
Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.

"I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on earth."  Steve McQueen
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 29
cweston Search for posts by this member.

Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 2900
Joined: Mar. 2009
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 10:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Mar. 15 2014, 8:39 pm)
QUOTE
Religious freedom means you can live your faith 24/7, not just in whispers outside of public view.  Interestingly,sex outside of marriage used to happen in the shadows.  Now it, including forms of sexual perversion, is paraded and the push is for those who may have deep convictions of faith and traditional morality to only be able to practice it behind closed doors.

You can make whatever sexual morality choices you wish for you. No one is impeding your right to do that in any way.

Were you under the impression that you get to make that choice for others as well? Is that what you think religious freedom means? If so, you are mistaken.

QUOTE
Should Washington State decide that it will sacrifice religious liberty on the altar of compulsory affirmation of  homosexual behavior,  I would invite Baronelle to move to, and reopen her business in, a part of America that is still free.


No matter how many times you make this claim, it is still specious. No one is forcing anyone to "affirm homosexuality."
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info 
 Post Number: 30
Walkinman Search for posts by this member.
A rainbow
Avatar



Group: Members
Posts: 7527
Joined: Nov. 2002
PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 15 2014, 11:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Mar. 15 2014, 5:39 pm)
QUOTE
I think we've been over this ground before.

Indeed. And, as I suggested, Three would (again) ignore those parts of the bible that illustrate his hypocrisy and dishonesty.

QUOTE


The Old Testament Law was the civil and criminal law for national Israel.

The New Testament is the final authoritative revelation for Christians ...

… and it says nothing about refusing to sell flowers to people

QUOTE
Understanding this distinction might require a level of nuance that seems rare on TPA.  

Primarily amongst you, Lame and one or 2 others.

QUOTE
Both the Old and New Testament teach the God's ideal for marriage is one man, one woman for life and any sex outside of marriage is wrong, whether it be heterosexual or some other sexual practice.

This is not true. The NT does not teach God's ideal for marriage at all. Further, as I've pointed out before, if you stand by Genesis as your God's ideal for marriage, you should also stand by Genesis as your God's ideal for incest.

Further still .. if this IS the religious ideal you cling to, you also support a business owner's right to question if the bride-to-be is a virgin, or has been married before, and if so, on what grounds did she get a divorce, and then refuse to sell her flowers if the woman divorced her husband because he beat her. Or killed her children.

QUOTE
Religious freedom means you can live your faith 24/7,

And your faith is flower selling?
QUOTE
not just in whispers outside of public view.

I'd argue that NO ONE should have to live their lives in whispers outside of public view .. just say'n.

QUOTE
 Interestingly,sex outside of marriage used to happen in the shadows.

It also used to happen frequently in full view outside of marriage. Why do you continually perpetuate a false narrative?

QUOTE
 Now it, including forms of sexual perversion, is paraded and the push is for those who may have deep convictions of faith and traditional morality to only be able to practice it behind closed doors.

Nonsense.

QUOTE
I wish Baronelle Stutzman success; am considering donating to ADF to help her case.   I guess it will give some a great degree of pleasure to put this gentle lady out of business.

Gentle does not mean she's not a bigot.

QUOTE
Should Washington State decide that it will sacrifice religious liberty on the altar of compulsory affirmation of  homosexual behavior,  I would invite Baronelle to move to, and reopen her business in, a part of America that is still free.

Best regards,

Washington state has not sacrificed anything.

"compulsory"? Hardly .. she chose to sell flowers. There's no "compulsory" in this entire issue.


--------------
Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips

"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
Offline
Top of Page Profile Contact Info WEB 
127 replies since Mar. 14 2014, 6:33 pm < Next Oldest | Next Newest >

[ Track This Topic :: Email This Topic :: Print this topic ]


Page 1 of 512345>>
reply to topic new topic new poll

» Quick Reply Religious Liberty and Freedom of Conscience
iB Code Buttons
You are posting as:

Do you wish to enable your signature for this post?
Do you wish to enable emoticons for this post?
Track this topic
View All Emoticons
View iB Code



Get 2 FREE Trial Issues and 3 FREE GIFTS
Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
The Best Trails in America
YES! Please send me my FREE trial issues of Backpacker
and my 3 FREE downloadable booklets.
Full Name:
City:
Address 1:
Zip Code:
State:
Address 2:
Email (required):
Free trial offer valid for US subscribers only. Canadian subscriptions | International subscriptions