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Topic: Why Did Jesus Die?, More Theology< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 10:36 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Jesus died for our sins according to the religous people. Is this true? And what does it mean?

And what is a sin? Is it premarital sex? Doing fun but illicit drugs? Eating way too many tator tots?

Why didn't he die for something cool like cheap nuclear fusion on earth? Or gave us the ability to turn garbage into bacon. Sounds like jesus didn't really think this through. Looks like he dropped the ball on thr whole crucifixion thing.
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He died for your shins. Be thankful you can walk.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

eternal life is cool

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 8:36 am)
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Jesus died for our sins according to the religous people. Is this true? And what does it mean?

It means all you need to do is believe in Jesus as your Savior and when you die, you will go to heaven.

That's pretty much it.  As far as defining sin, don't worry too much about that.  Yes, premarital sex, doing illegal drugs and eating too many tater tots could all be considered sinful, but Jesus died in atonement for the sins of the whole world.

And yes, he even forgives gay people, even though they don't actually think they're sinning.

In gratitude for his mercy, Jesus would appreciate it if you try to lead a better life, but he realized that we are bound to continue to sin.....it's just part of our human nature.  He would also appreciate it if you share the good news of salvation with others.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:44 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm going to guess it was dehydration.  The wounds were pretty insignificant and there should not have been sufficient blood loss.

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(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

So which one is right? The old or the new?

You don't have to argue. Why not call it an answer battle?
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(ol-zeke @ Mar. 21 2014, 9:44 am)
QUOTE
I'm going to guess it was dehydration.  The wounds were pretty insignificant and there should not have been sufficient blood loss.

Acrually, suffocation would be closer.  This article contains a pretty good medical description of the process

Source

Death by Crucifixion: Slow Suffocation
Shallowness of breathing causes small areas of lung collapse.
Decreased oxygen and increased carbon dioxide causes acidic conditions in the tissues.
Fluid builds up in the lungs. Makes situation in step 2 worse.
Heart is stressed and eventually fails.
The slow process of suffering and resulting death during a crucifixion may be summarized as follows:

"...it appears likely that the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. The chain of events which ultimately led to suffocation are as follows: With the weight of the body being supported by the sedulum, the arms were pulled upward. This caused the intercostal and pectoral muscles to be stretched. Furthermore, movement of these muscles was opposed by the weight of the body. With the muscles of respiration thus stretched, the respiratory bellows became relatively fixed. As dyspnea developed and pain in the wrists and arms increased, the victim was forced to raise the body off the sedulum, thereby transferring the weight of the body to the feet. Respirations became easier, but with the weight of the body being exerted on the feet, pain in the feet and legs mounted. When the pain became unbearable, the victim again slumped down on the sedulum with the weight of the body pulling on the wrists and again stretching the intercostal muscles. Thus, the victim alternated between lifting his body off the sedulum in order to breathe and slumping down on the sedulum to relieve pain in the feet. Eventually, he became exhausted or lapsed into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the sedulum. In this position, with the respiratory muscles essentially paralyzed, the victim suffocated and died. (DePasquale and Burch)

Due to the shallow breathing, the victim's lungs begin to collapse in small areas. causing hypoxia and hypercarbia. A respiratory acidosis, with lack of compensation by the kidneys due to the loss of blood from the numerous beatings, resulted in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid builds up in the lungs.. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis the heart eventually fails. There are several different theories on the actual cause of death. One theory states that there was a filling of the pericardium with fluid, which put a fatal strain on the ability of the heart to pump blood (Lumpkin). Another theory states that Jesus died of cardiac rupture." (Bergsma) The actual cause of Jesus' death, however, "may have been multifactorial and related primarily to hypovolemic shock, exhaustion asphyxia and perhaps acute heart failure."(Edwards) A fatal cardiac arrhythmia may have caused the final terminal event. (Johnson, Edwards)
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(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 10:00 am)
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So which one is right? The old or the new?

You don't have to argue. Why not call it an answer battle?

It's not either/or

The old testament (law) shows us our sin.

The new testament (gosple) shows us our Savior
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh that's just great, so my beloved 60/40 Sierra Designs parka is on trial again?

Boo.

The good news is I could always use some guidance on correct slave management.
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Thank you, Lamebeaver.  I learned something today about how all sorts of people died from crucifixion.  I never did get that death in one day thing from dehydration, but only figured most of the people who were put to death in this manner were prisoners for a couple of days, so the dehydration process could be started while in captivity.  Suffocation, and such, makes much more sense in the biological explanation.  

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So, is it by Works or by Faith, or both, that someone is granted Heaven?

Is baptism necessary? Or, is just a declaration of Faith enough. Does someone need to do "good" to make it?


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One thing, they absolutely cannot have been; that abomination, a designated hitter.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 12:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Don't get Jesus started on interleague play or the relief pitcher.
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(desert dweller @ Mar. 21 2014, 10:33 am)
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So, is it by Works or by Faith, or both, that someone is granted Heaven?

Is baptism necessary? Or, is just a declaration of Faith enough. Does someone need to do "good" to make it?

Now you're getting into the tough stuff.

It is by faith alone that you are saved.

Good works are signs of faith, done out of gratitude.

Technically, baptism is not necessary (Mark 16:16)

Faith is enough (declared or otherwise).  There is some disagreement over whether baptism is a substitute for faith, which is why some churches baptize infants, and some wait until children are old enough to make a decision.

The Bible is pretty clear that "doing good" is not a substitute for faith.
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(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 10:36 am)
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Or gave us the ability to turn garbage into bacon...

About halfway between Phnom Penh and Battambang the bus stopped at a bus stop place (I was going to say facility, but that seemed a little grandiose) where a few people were selling fruit and whatnot, and there was a cafe of sorts and behind the cafe there were some toilets which were built out over a hog pen so that all the waste -  feces, urine, vomit, whatever - went directly into a trough in the hog pen and the hogs, needless to say, ate it all up. There were two little girls about 4 years old sitting outside the toilets, hoping to get a little money. I gave some (being a Democrat and all).

So you see, garbage IS turned into bacon. Mmmmm, baaacon.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 1:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Bible is wrong.

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(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

Well said, totally agree, avoid foolish arguments.
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(mjeck @ Mar. 21 2014, 2:48 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

Well said, totally agree, avoid foolish arguments.

You need a more positive outlook on things. Arguments? How about opinion projection?
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(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 12:55 pm)
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You need a more positive outlook on things. Arguments? How about opinion projection?

Is that your opinion projecting or are you glad to see me?

:p
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(OP @ Mar. 21 2014, 9:36 am)
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Why Did Jesus Die?
Like a chicken who crosses the road - to get to the "other side".

(Reminiscence @ Mar. 21 2014, 12:32 pm)
QUOTE
The Bible is wrong.
No, it's right. Extreme right, judging by the politics of its adherents.
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(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:16 am)
QUOTE

(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 8:36 am)
QUOTE
Jesus died for our sins according to the religous people. Is this true? And what does it mean?

It means all you need to do is believe in Jesus as your Savior and when you die, you will go to heaven.

That's pretty much it.  As far as defining sin, don't worry too much about that.  Yes, premarital sex, doing illegal drugs and eating too many tater tots could all be considered sinful, but Jesus died in atonement for the sins of the whole world.

And yes, he even forgives gay people, even though they don't actually think they're sinning.

In gratitude for his mercy, Jesus would appreciate it if you try to lead a better life, but he realized that we are bound to continue to sin.....it's just part of our human nature.  He would also appreciate it if you share the good news of salvation with others.

Spot on.
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(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

Well put.  Lots of theology in easy to understand language.
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(Three @ Mar. 21 2014, 1:58 pm)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:16 am)
QUOTE

(Marmotstew @ Mar. 21 2014, 8:36 am)
QUOTE
Jesus died for our sins according to the religous people. Is this true? And what does it mean?

It means all you need to do is believe in Jesus as your Savior and when you die, you will go to heaven.

That's pretty much it.  As far as defining sin, don't worry too much about that.  Yes, premarital sex, doing illegal drugs and eating too many tater tots could all be considered sinful, but Jesus died in atonement for the sins of the whole world.

And yes, he even forgives gay people, even though they don't actually think they're sinning.

In gratitude for his mercy, Jesus would appreciate it if you try to lead a better life, but he realized that we are bound to continue to sin.....it's just part of our human nature.  He would also appreciate it if you share the good news of salvation with others.

Spot on.

That's it? Why does the bible take nearly 3/4 million words to say this?

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(Three @ Mar. 21 2014, 2:01 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
…. Just trying to stir things up yet again.


Or lighten things up, perhaps.

QUOTE
 I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it. ....

Well put.  Lots of theology in easy to understand language.

More accurately … The Christians in these forums don't know why Jesus died. They choose to believe their version of why he died. Many of the non-Christians here also know this version, though they choose not to believe it. Many of the Christians disagree on why he died, who he was and what he did. Mostly though, they often disagree on the meaning of much of what he (purportedly) said.

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(Three @ Mar. 21 2014, 5:01 pm)
QUOTE

(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
QUOTE
Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

Well put.  Lots of theology in easy to understand language.
Language that is mostly, at the very least, largely false, IMHO, whether intentionally or not.

Given the provably self-serving nature of the compilers of the Christian canon (as well as most religious documents of any kind produced post hoc, as your canon most certainly was), I would have to plunk on the side of
"intentionally". Religions and their various sects and churches have built-in motivation, some of which is financial and some of which is related to power over others, to "prevaricate in the large".

Yet, there are far too many "believers", of every religious stripe, who wish to believe that the simplest explanation for what is written in the Bible is the existence of angels (even ones that hand out gold plates inscribed in pseudo-Egyptian hieroglyphics), demons, gods and other "otherworldly" beings and events. Let me suggest that such a worldview is absolutely specious, and is based on what can only be interpreted as "convenient fictions" for those who wish to manipulate others, or those who already have a large investment in time and energy in that belief.

"Jesus" doesn't "care" what you do in your life for the good reason that, assuming he even existed in some form or other as a human, he does not now so exist. In short: he's dead. He is non-existent. Thought, insofar as we know of it in "normal life", is somewhat dependent on not being 'dead'.

Mind, I don't have a problem if millions wish to believe whatever they want - that's their problem. I [I]do
have a problem with millions of persons attempting to "infect others" with this disease. If "Jesus" does something special for you, and keeps you from attacking your neighbors violently, or merely makes life seem worth living, good for you. It's still a "crutch" that exists solely in the minds of a large number of humans. I'm suspicious of the relative "good" that it's doing, but I don't see your beliefs as any of my problem until you start to believe that I, and others like me who are 'positivist' or 'realist', must adhere to your fictions by virtue of laws based on them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 10:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Gabby, you are going to hell. We'll be in good company.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Mar. 21 2014, 4:01 pm)
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(burntfoot @ Mar. 21 2014, 11:24 am)
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Not worth arguing much about.  Especially in light of your tongue-in-cheek comments in your original post.  Just trying to stir things up yet again.  I'll give a quick synopsis and then shut up.

The Christians in these forums know why Jesus died.  In fact, most of the non-Christians here also know what is believed, though they choose not to also believe it.  And arguments in either camp are not going to change the others' thinking or beliefs.  "Sins" are doing anything that is wrong.  According to the Old Testament laws, it is virtually impossible not to sin, as there are so many laws and so complex at times.  The New Testament states that we all have sinned, though not by eating tator tots.  Everyone has his own life to be accountable for, and the accompanying punishment.  No one can take our place unless perfect (without his/her own sins to take care of).  Jesus, was this perfect person, so could and did take our place when he died at the crucifixion.  All we have to do is accept this undeserved gift of his.  That's it in a nutshell.  You asked what we believed, I answered.  I will not get into an argument over this.

Well put.  Lots of theology in easy to understand language.

Thanks.  Most of the unbelievers in these forums understand what Lamebeaver and I were saying.  They just want to pick a fight.

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I love the mountains!
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 21 2014, 11:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(zenlizard @ Mar. 21 2014, 9:51 pm)
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Gabby, you are going to hell. We'll be in good company.
I know. I'm sure there are a number of people out there who are wishing me a speedy farewell to the netherworld.

But, before I go, I wish to make one small change: fix the ridiculous Catholic Gregorian calendar we use that is purportedly based on the birth date of that Biblical and Christian icon, Jesus, and which the Catholics apparently forced into use because of their need to celebrate Easter and other religious holidays at specific times during the year.

The calendar really isn't based on Jesus' birth date because no one is sure exactly when Jesus was born. Those passionately concerned about such things believe it was sometime between 4 B.C. and 6 A.D., I believe. Not that it really matters.

Not only do these guys not seem to know the year of birth, the annual religious festivals that mark the end of the year, and the attendant naysayers' "War on Christmas" that so upsets the "faithful", and for which the calendar was apparently revised last time, don't even coincide with any reasonable annual birthday party for the son of God. The guy was, by at least some calculations, more likely to have been born in the late summer or early fall. If he "lay in a manger" in "swaddling clothes" in the winter, he'd most probably not survived the cold and the rain, even with "special dispensation" from God (or the warming glow of celebrating angels).

I favor the International Fixed Calendar, based on a beginning date of first written human history (best guess) or some significant event, such as the beginning of the classic Greek games, and which organizes dates around a set of 13 months, all 28 days in length. With such a system, dates in a month would always fall on the same day of the week. For instance, there'd be exactly one "Friday the 13th" every month, in every second week of the month. (Hell for the superstitious, I guess. There'd be exactly 13 "Friday the 13ths" every year.) Each year would have an extra "year day" to take care of the odd number of days in the year, and there'd be an adjustment of one "Leap Day" every four years. No more buying a new calendar each year, or having to think about how many days in this month or next.

Next, I think we should throw out the remnant month names carried over from the Julian calendar and the "missnumbered" last four (the 9th through 12th months are "numbered" 7, 8, 9 and 10!!!), and simply do as the Chinese and Japanese do: number the months as we number the days: so the months would be "Month One", "Month Two" and so forth.

Finally, adopt a reasonable and consistent decimal notation that does away with different "date formats" everywhere on earth and which uses a system that puts things in a decent most significant digit first order that is simple. The "star date" system used as a "date obfuscation device" on the TV program "Star Trek" would be good: eeyymmdd.h, where:

ee = epoch number
yy = year number within epoch
mm = month number within year
dd = day number within month
.h = "hour" based on a decimal system, where ".5" = noon

A Swiftianly "modest proposal" which I believe would yield a number of significant advantages over the present system, and release us from the tyrannical, and somewhat ridiculous, Christian hold on our daily lives. But that lot is very, very stubborn.

Thank you very much.
                        -Elvis
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 22 2014, 12:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Some thoughts...

In the broad sweep of the Bible, sin is more commonly corporate than individual.

Yes, humans are individually "sinful," but more to the point, they are collectively "sinful." Our systems of oppression and unjustness are some of our most obvious sins--and this is a major theme of the Bible. The prophets of the Bible (including Jesus) don't spent a lot of energy railing against individual "sins" of sexuality and reproductive choices, for example, although contemporary evangelical Christianity seems obsessed with those "sins."

The cultures that produced the Bible were much less focused on individual action than we tend to be. Most discussion about sin in the Bible is more about social sin, corrupt and oppressive economic and governmental systems, and so on.

Social sins are harder to define and harder to take responsibility for. If I punch my neighbor in the face, I've obviously done harm to him. But if I behave selfishly in the social/economic sphere, I may do just as much (or more) damage to my neighbor, but my culpability is less cut-and-dried.
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