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Topic: Will Christians condemn persecution of gays?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2014, 10:19 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Now we're talking. We all need to do the right thing. Speak out (and do) for human rights and against bigotry.

http://www.cnn.com/2014....sidebar


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 02 2014, 11:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know the Pope isn't a Christian man, he's a Catholic...

The question is will mainstream Christianity stand up.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 6:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While I do not support homosexuality, I will say that I also do not support criminalizing it.  The stance some of these African countries are taking is way to extreme.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 7:48 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 03 2014, 6:33 am)
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While I do not support homosexuality, I will say that I also do not support criminalizing it.  The stance some of these African countries are taking is way to extreme.

That is, as they used to say here in Texas, mighty white of you.

While this sort of thing - what you said - isn't hate speech in the sense of Westboro Baptist Church hate speech, it is hateful and demeaning. In the end, it is demeaning to you and your perverted brand of Christianity.

And in a further end, "this senseless persecution of gay people" will go down in history as a shameful chapter in the history of Christianity - as shameful as the persecution of black people.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 7:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

+1
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 7:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The only thing worse than a christen bashing gays is the christian standing next to him not defending the gays.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 11:25 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(buddero @ Apr. 03 2014, 7:48 am)
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(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 03 2014, 6:33 am)
QUOTE
While I do not support homosexuality, I will say that I also do not support criminalizing it.  The stance some of these African countries are taking is way to extreme.

That is, as they used to say here in Texas, mighty white of you.

While this sort of thing - what you said - isn't hate speech in the sense of Westboro Baptist Church hate speech, it is hateful and demeaning. In the end, it is demeaning to you and your perverted brand of Christianity.

And in a further end, "this senseless persecution of gay people" will go down in history as a shameful chapter in the history of Christianity - as shameful as the persecution of black people.

History museums are often intended to remind us of our past mistakes.  They look back in time, recreating the events of the day that are difficult to understand in today’s context.  For example, the Gettysburg Museum has displays where they play impassioned speeches by southern Senators in support of slavery, and the Holocaust Museum plays speeches that were intended to drum up hatred against the Jews and others. One day, the speeches of those persecuting the LGBT community will likewise be repeated in a museum dedicated to reminding us this time in our history.

Perkins, Bachmann, and Dobson, et.al. won’t be remembered for their “patriotic defense of the family and all that is America,” but for their bigotry.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 11:30 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Heard a good one the other day...

"If the fetus you save is Gay, will you continue to protect its rights?"
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 1:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are a lot of descendants of KKK members.

Not many of those descendants will brag about it.

In a couple of generations, the same will be true about descendants of "conservative" Christians who deny rights to gays.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 1:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'm sorry to be a broken record, but there are Christians who have been condemning the gay bashing all along. Not enough, alas, but still...better late than never.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 1:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Apr. 02 2014, 8:17 pm)
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You know the Pope isn't a Christian man, he's a Catholic...

The question is will mainstream Christianity stand up.

Sort of why I prefer the old school "protestant".
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 1:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Simple question with a simple answer: yes.  Yes we will.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 6:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Cweston and Trinity help convince me that real Christianity (i.e., Christ-Like) will survive and thrive, and that's a good thing, even for non-believers.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 6:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

QUOTE
I would refuse to go to a homophobic heaven. No, I would say sorry, I mean I would much rather go to the other place.

I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel about this.

I am as passionate about this campaign as I ever was about apartheid. For me, it is at the same level."


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 8:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Neither persecution nor affirmation.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 8:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Jesus, if he were real, would have defended gays.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 03 2014, 10:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Apr. 03 2014, 4:44 pm)
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Neither persecution nor affirmation.

Did you read the title of this thread? or the link article?

here, read it slowly

"Will Christians condemn persecution of gays?"

in other words, "will Christians stand up against the persecution of gay people that is currently going on around the world?"

Some Christians will, and do. It seems you're not able to condemn this persecution. It'll be interesting to read why.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 9:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Apr. 03 2014, 6:59 pm)
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Jesus, if he were real, would have defended gays.

+1 to that.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 10:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Apr. 03 2014, 1:42 pm)
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I'm sorry to be a broken record, but there are Christians who have been condemning the gay bashing all along. Not enough, alas, but still...better late than never.

This is the sort of thing that gets lost in the back and forth between liberals, agnostics, and atheists on the one hand and fundamentalist evangelicals on the other hand. It's almost as if Christianity is defined by the hard right. But of course it is not.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 1:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So does this just mean you're willing to move to Russia and not Uganda Three? What's it going to be since you're unwilling to honor our Republic?

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 1:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Old Frank @ Apr. 03 2014, 5:37 pm)
QUOTE
Cweston and Trinity help convince me that real Christianity (i.e., Christ-Like) will survive and thrive, and that's a good thing, even for non-believers.
This is the most important observation in this thread so far, IMHO.

We need a diverse community of tolerant and joyful people with opinions about life that they cherish and live - but, at the same time, know are not absolute, and certainly not to the extent that no one else can have other, opposing ways of thinking. That last part is very important.

From the cited article:
QUOTE
Cardinal Timothy Dolan -- when asked about NFL prospect Michael Sam coming out of the closet -- said on NBC's "Meet The Press," "The same Bible that tells us -- that teaches us well about the virtues of chastity and the virtue of fidelity and marriage also tells us not to judge people."


We need each other.

Just as many have observed about our current screwed up political world, we need the "other guy" to counter the very human tendency to lose our perspective and become something intolerable and horrendous, whatever our beliefs.

When I hear someone mouth that bit about how "American society is being destroyed by ____", I wonder how that person could have missed the message so clearly seen in American history about the vitality and vigor this country gained from having such a diverse "mixing pot" of people from so many ethnic and cultural backgrounds.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 1:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seems like many feel there is no middle ground on this.  One must fully acknowledge and accept homosexuality as completely natural and normal, or fully condemn it and support the prosecution and persecution of people who are gay.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process behind this line of reasoning.
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(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 04 2014, 12:58 pm)
QUOTE
Seems like many feel there is no middle ground on this.  One must fully acknowledge and accept homosexuality as completely natural and normal, or fully condemn it and support the prosecution and persecution of people who are gay.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process behind this line of reasoning.

I don't agree. Or, more correctly, since you said "It seems like...," I'll just say that it doesn't seem that way to me.

I think the middle ground that the vast majority of people would be satisfied with is if people who don't agree with homosexuality or think it is a sin or whatever would stop actively discriminating against gay people and/or promoting laws and policies that discriminate against gay people.

Don't approve of homosexuality? Great, don't be gay. (Which is, it must be said, pretty easy for straight people.) Don't agree with same-sex marriage? Great, don't be part of one. Don't perform them at your church. Don't think gay couples should be able to adopt? Then go ahead and advocate for laws that favor your position, but do so in a way that treats people with equal basic dignity. (You know, golden rule and all.)

I don't approve of plaid bow ties. I don't approve of wearing white socks with long pants. I don't approve of horsemen wrecking trails that I like to hike on. But I don't denigrate these people, or advocate for laws that relegate them to second-class citizen status.

Basically, I think that the argument that the "gay agenda" wants to force everyone to positively affirm their lifestyle is simply bull$hit.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 2:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(double cabin @ Apr. 04 2014, 1:06 pm)
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So does this just mean you're willing to move to Russia and not Uganda Three? What's it going to be since you're unwilling to honor our Republic?

So if one says homosexual behavior is wrong, he should be forced to flee the U.S. and seek asylum in another country in your opinion?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 2:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No,

If one suggests that consenting adult homosexuals are not entitled to equal protection they are un American. If one wants theocracy in their life and the lives of unwilling neighbors than they are not paticipants in a free Republic.

You want something America can NEVER give you Three. But Russia, Uganda, or somewhere else certainly can so why not pursue the attainable instead of demanding a pipe dream like a 12 year old?


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 6:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 04 2014, 9:58 am)
QUOTE
Seems like many feel there is no middle ground on this.  One must fully acknowledge and accept homosexuality as completely natural and normal, or fully condemn it and support the prosecution and persecution of people who are gay.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process behind this line of reasoning.

What's the middle ground?

One must fully acknowledge and accept interracial marriage as "completely natural and normal" (whatever that might mean), or fully condemn it and support the prosecution and persecution of people who are in interracial relationships?

If you don't acknowledge homosexuality as "completely natural and normal", how exactly do you view it? And, more importantly, on what grounds?

But we should stay on topic ... again, this thread asks 'Will Christians condemn the persecution of gay people?". In other words, will you stand by and ignore that persecution? So far, a couple of folks like cwestion and Trinity have declared, clearly, that they do condemn this persecution, yet yourself and Three, predictably, seem unable to do this. Isn't this a kind of tacit approval of the persecution? Standing idly by and watching one group of people be persecuted by another without so much as even answering a simple question about it on an internet forum certainly doesn't appear to me to be a very neutral stance at all.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 6:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Apr. 04 2014, 10:11 am)
QUOTE

(double cabin @ Apr. 04 2014, 1:06 pm)
QUOTE
So does this just mean you're willing to move to Russia and not Uganda Three? What's it going to be since you're unwilling to honor our Republic?

So if one says homosexual behavior is wrong, he should be forced to flee the U.S. and seek asylum in another country in your opinion?

If one asserts that your sexuality is "wrong" and immoral and sinful, you'd probably want to know on what basis they make that judgement. If their reply was that they read it in a book, you'd probably suggest they mind their own business. if they advocated for political policy that punishes you for your sexuality, you'd probably call this persecuting you; you'd definitely whine about it.

Do you support or condemn the persecution of gay people discussed in the linked article?


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 6:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 04 2014, 12:58 pm)
QUOTE
Seems like many feel there is no middle ground on this.  One must fully acknowledge and accept homosexuality as completely natural and normal, or fully condemn it and support the prosecution and persecution of people who are gay.

I have a hard time understanding the thought process behind this line of reasoning.
How you have a "hard time understanding" is hard for me to understand. Come on.

For example, I personally think that people who believe in an invisible god or gods, and who "speak" to them daily, asking for whatever - borders on the insane. It definitely assumes the status of absolute insanity when those same folk insist that you believe in their “invisible god” and conduct yourself in accordance with the precepts handed down through their books because, well, they believe in him.

I've repeated Carl Sagan's story about the "dragon in my garage" here before. (Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World):
QUOTE
Sagan described the discussion as follows:
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage" Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage
Clearly, the person insisting on the “invisible dragon in their garage” is insane.

Now, for the “hard part”. Why should I not condemn this sort of belief and the associated activities: attendance at “dragon temple” each week, daily sessions kneeling in the dust of the garage, and so forth? It’s clearly insane!

But, even though I feel that your beliefs are somewhat strange, I defend your right to so believe. That's your right.

However, I do not defend your right to enforce your beliefs on others.

Was that so hard to understand?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 04 2014, 6:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What would Jesus do?


I don't recall "go forth and persecute" being one of his talking points.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 05 2014, 11:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yes.  Indeed there are many Christians who have been condemning persecution of gays for many years and even decades.  Certainly long before it was popular to do so.
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