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Topic: For our resident religious freedom proponents..., What do you think about this?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 2:56 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Pro-LGBT church: Boy Scouts violating our religious freedom by ousting gay Scoutmaster.

Excerpt:

QUOTE
SEATTLE — The pastor of an LGBT-welcoming church says the Boy Scouts of America is infringing on her church’s religious freedom in its efforts to oust their openly gay Scoutmaster.

AP
Geoffrey McGrath
Geoffrey McGrath is an openly gay scout leader whose membership in the Boy Scouts was revoked last week because of the organization’s ban on openly gay adults.

But McGrath has refused to step down, saying he will continue in his role as Scoutmaster until instructed to do so by his charter organization, which in this case is Rainier Beach United Methodist Church.

It’s a position supported by Pastor Monica Corsaro, who leads the host church for McGrath’s troop.

Corsaro and McGrath have now hired an attorney, and say they believe BSA is infringing on their religious freedom, since the organization expects churches to choose their scoutmasters, reports KING-TV.


Full article here
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All people have the right to assembly, as they choose to assemble.  Let them hash it out among themselves.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good for Pastor Corsaro (and others)....obeying Christ.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Those two edged swords can be a real problem, neh?

I wonder if this guy has the money and the committment to go all the way through the Federal courts when the Boy Scouts sue him?

Could turn into a real PR quagmire for the Scouts.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I guess I don't really see the problem here.  No one is forcing this church to host a Boy Scout Troop, they willingly chose to host an anti-gay organization.  As the head of a church, I have been approached before about the possibility of hosting a scout troop, and I have stated that I am not willing to host an organization that excludes based on sexual orientation.  I support their right to exclude, and I support our right to have nothing to do with them.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You are right, Trinity.  That is the correct, logical, consistent position and I applaud your principles.

But some people just love a good fight, even when it isn't needed.

We are an extremely litigeous society.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 3:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Apr. 09 2014, 2:41 pm)
QUOTE
I support their right to exclude, and I support our right to have nothing to do with them.

That was my thought as well--while I applaud the church and pastor's stand on general principle, surely they knew about BSA'a anti-gay policies when they signed on to host a troop.

BSA is a private organization and they can allow who they want to be scoutmasters. Of course, those who disagree with this policy can and should speak out against it. Marketplace of ideas and all.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 6:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Apr. 09 2014, 3:41 pm)
QUOTE
I guess I don't really see the problem here.  No one is forcing this church to host a Boy Scout Troop, they willingly chose to host an anti-gay organization.  As the head of a church, I have been approached before about the possibility of hosting a scout troop, and I have stated that I am not willing to host an organization that excludes based on sexual orientation.  I support their right to exclude, and I support our right to have nothing to do with them.

!00% agreed! While many on here would rather the government step in and create more laws...

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 9:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Apr. 09 2014, 3:53 pm)
QUOTE

(Trinity @ Apr. 09 2014, 2:41 pm)
QUOTE
I support their right to exclude, and I support our right to have nothing to do with them.

That was my thought as well--while I applaud the church and pastor's stand on general principle, surely they knew about BSA'a anti-gay policies when they signed on to host a troop.

BSA is a private organization and they can allow who they want to be scoutmasters. Of course, those who disagree with this policy can and should speak out against it. Marketplace of ideas and all.

+1

Two organizations with a difference of opinion.

BSA refuses to fully genuflect (yet) to calling right wrong and wrong right.

This church refuses to fully recognize the Bible as God's Word and as the best guide for our lives.

Both do and should have the freedom to follow their consciences in this matter.

No need for litigation IMHO.

Then again DC feels I'm not a proponent of religious freedom so maybe I don't fit the OP criteria for posting :D
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 9:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Apr. 09 2014, 8:14 pm)
QUOTE
This church refuses to fully recognize the Bible as God's Word and as the best guide for our lives.

Sigh...

There are multiple ways to interpret the Bible. Just because your way is your way, that doesn't make it the right way (and every other way wrong.) Can you really not even acknowledge this?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 09 2014, 10:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Apr. 09 2014, 9:28 pm)
QUOTE
Can you really not even acknowledge this?

Pretty sure we all know the answer to this.  Sad, really.

An interesting side-note is that I've heard that scout troops are being thrown out of some of the more conservative churches because they have been moderating their stance regarding homosexuality.  If a situation like this were to present itself, I might be willing to have some discussions about hosting them.  I feel pretty bad for the kids, who are essentially being used as pawns in a fight they want nothing to do with.  Now many troops are in a position of being too inclusive for conservative parishes and too exclusive for more liberal parishes.  Pretty sad state of affairs.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 7:58 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Three @ Apr. 09 2014, 9:14 pm)
QUOTE
This church refuses to fully recognize the Bible as God's Word and as the best guide for our lives.

How could anyone read the Bible and come to this conclusion? At beast you could pick a few small segments and claim they offer some good advice but it's extremely limited as being any sort of a guide for living your life. Does it offer any recipes, any advice on medical procedures, any dietary advice that's actually proven to be beneficial, any advice on the role of exercise, any advice on how to make to finance your kid's education, any advice on buying your first home or finding a stable career path, any advice on neonatal care or psychological advice in dealing with children, spouses and other family members?

Of course not. All the major things people want advice about is noticeably absent from this life guide of yours.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 9:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Trinity @ Apr. 09 2014, 10:47 pm)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Apr. 09 2014, 9:28 pm)
QUOTE
Can you really not even acknowledge this?

Pretty sure we all know the answer to this.  Sad, really.

An interesting side-note is that I've heard that scout troops are being thrown out of some of the more conservative churches because they have been moderating their stance regarding homosexuality.  If a situation like this were to present itself, I might be willing to have some discussions about hosting them.  I feel pretty bad for the kids, who are essentially being used as pawns in a fight they want nothing to do with.  Now many troops are in a position of being too inclusive for conservative parishes and too exclusive for more liberal parishes.  Pretty sad state of affairs.

There is a simple solution to the problem, get with the times. But if they are to change, surely it can only come from within, by people challenging their rules exactly the way they are now. Otherwise there are a number of more tolerant organizations that would be glad of the membership, 4-H for example is quite popular here, at least as much so as Scouts.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 9:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Barbara Brown Taylor, in Leaving Church: A Memior of Faith

"What I noticed at Grace-Calvary is the same thing I notice whenever people aim to solve their conflicts with one another by turning to the bible: defending the dried ink marks on the page becomes more vital than defending their neighbor. As a general rule, I would say that human beings never behave more badly toward one another than when they believe they are protecting God. In the words of Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mohandas, 'People of the Book risk putting the book above people'."
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 9:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 9:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Isn't pedophilia mostly independent of sexual orientation?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 10:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 7:46 am)
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If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

A pedophile should never be in charge of kids.  But that's entirely separate from sexual orientation.  Heterosexual male teachers are put in charge of girls in classrooms and sports teams all the time and no one flinches.  But you contend it's an automatic issue if a homosexual man is in charge of boys?  Do you see the double-standard there, or should I lay it out more clearly?


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 9:46 am)
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If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

It takes a real sicko to equate a person's sexual orientation with sexual exploitation of children.

There are male girl scout leaders and there are female boy scout leaders.  Neither organization is concerned with the sexual orientation of its leaders being the opposite of that of its members.

But only the boy scouts imagine sexual exploitation of boys by men.  As if there isn't a news story every week about an adult female sexually exploiting a male child.  so why don't they assume all their female leaders are there for the kiddie sex?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Apr. 10 2014, 8:45 am)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 7:46 am)
QUOTE
If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

A pedophile should never be in charge of kids.  But that's entirely separate from sexual orientation.  Heterosexual male teachers are put in charge of girls in classrooms and sports teams all the time and no one flinches.  But you contend it's an automatic issue if a homosexual man is in charge of boys?  Do you see the double-standard there, or should I lay it out more clearly?

Sure, right after you answer the question.

A classroom is not quit the same as a camping trip, and I never said anything about pedophiles.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 12:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok, I'm going back to sue.  They kicked me out of Boy Scouts for eating Brownies.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 6:46 am)
QUOTE
If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

Absolutely.

That he might chat up one of the mom's is something they can work out amongst themselves.... plenty of single moms in scouting I expect, as there are in the general American population.
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(TDale @ Apr. 10 2014, 12:21 pm)
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Ok, I'm going back to sue.  They kicked me out of Boy Scouts for eating Brownies.

This is the kind of guy that the BSA would accept as a leader. Imagine that.
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(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 11:16 am)
QUOTE

(GoBlueHiker @ Apr. 10 2014, 8:45 am)
QUOTE
Do you see the double-standard there, or should I lay it out more clearly?

Sure, right after you answer the question.

A classroom is not quit the same as a camping trip, and I never said anything about pedophiles.

OK--I'll answer the question. (The only reason no one has is that it is so obvious).

Of course it's OK. My Dad and another man took my sister's Girl Scout trip on canoe/camping trips all the time. This was 40 years ago.

Because a man being sexually attracted to women (heterosexual) is not the same thing as being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent girls (pedophile), just like a man being sexually attracted to men (homosexual) is not the same thing as a man being attracted to pre-pubescent boys (pedophile).

They're just different things. If someone is a pedophile, then obviously we don't want them supervising children of either sex, whether they're gay, straight, bi, whatever.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 10 2014, 2:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 9:46 am)
QUOTE
If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

Actually, at least in the communities I have lived in, quite a few women were scout leaders, and I know quite clearly that at least one of those women was attracted to men.

The Cub Scouts would be in a world of hurt without women as scout leaders.

Don't know much about Girl Scout leaders and their restrictions, but they have been very clear about being inclusive girls with other than hetero orientation, and I would venture to guess they have a reasonable number of Lesbian scout leaders in their ranks.

Why is it that women are so much more tolerant as a rule than men are??


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 13 2014, 11:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Apr. 10 2014, 9:46 am)
QUOTE
If it's ok for a man who is attracted to men to lead a boy scout troop, would it be ok for a man who is attracted to women to lead a girl scout troop?

Not for the Girl Scouts of USA.  Male leaders are verboten by GSUSA.  Female leaders are welcomed by BSA.

On a side note, BSA welcomes girls age 14 and up to join BSA.  GSUSA forbids boys of any age from joining GSUSA.  

So which is organization is more "inclusive"?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2014, 12:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think their support of their choice for scoutmaster is commendable.

I think their decision to sue BSA to force them to accept their choice of scoutmaster is not only ill advised but in some ways hypocritical.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2014, 12:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(nogods @ Apr. 10 2014, 11:27 am)
QUOTE
There are male girl scout leaders.....

Really?  GSUSA allows males to become GSUSA toop leaders?  Since when?

QUOTE
....and there are female boy scout leaders.
 There are certainly are many many female den leaders, cubmasters, scoutmasters, Varsity Team Advisors, and Venturing Crew Advisors for multiple DECADES.   There are also many many girls who are members of BSA and have been for multiple DECADES.

How many boys have been allowed to become members of GSUSA?  Ever.  Zero?

So with zero male leaders and zero male members, just how "inclusive" is GSUSA really?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2014, 4:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Truth be told, a Boy Scout troop is simply a group of like-minded parent volunteers guiding their sons through the Scouting program.  A Scoutmaster is not some unknown entity appointed by some unknown executive somewhere.  Most parents are at least somewhat involved, and would be able to evaluate the appropriateness of any man or woman appointed as Scoutmaster.  (Very often, it is a parent of one of the Scouts in the Troop.)  It appears the parents of the Church in question fully support the choice that was made.  

And that’s something I just don’t get about BSA’s national policy on leaders.  If a Troop’s parents are OK with a leader, how are they in a better position to judge otherwise?

Edit to add: the "they" in the last sentence refers to BSA's National Council.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2014, 4:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, where is the religious freedom?

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(jdp @ Apr. 14 2014, 4:26 pm)
QUOTE
And that’s something I just don’t get about BSA’s national policy on leaders.  If a Troop’s parents are OK with a leader, how are they in a better position to judge otherwise?

Edit to add: the "they" in the last sentence refers to BSA's National Council.

Good question.  And yet........

GSUSA does not employ the "charter" model of BSA and allow the charter partner to select the toop leaders.  Instead GSUSA thinks it knows better than the parents and so GSUSA appoints the leaders.

So which organization is more "inclusive" and more flexible in its leadership policies?
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