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Topic: A Kinder, Gentler, more Grown-up Easter, Blog entry by a Methodist pastor< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 16 2014, 6:33 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A Kinder, Gentler, more Grown-up Easter

Interesting piece addressing the myth of redemptive violence and Christianity. Touches on a lot of themes that are frequently discussed here.

Excerpt:

Scholar Walter Wink contends that the world’s first meta-myth is “the myth of redemptive violence.” In a nutshell, it’s the notion that violence is what defeats evil and that killing bad guys is the right thing to do and it is violence that is what saves us. It’s rooted in the Enuma Elish from ancient Babylon and it’s the basis of much of Western culture. Indeed, part of why Jesus was executed was because many of the Jews in Israel at that time didn’t see him fitting their expectations for a kick-ass, Rambo-like knight in shining armor who would kick Roman butt and restore the Kingdom of Israel (though he was close enough as far as Rome was concerned).

Wink asserts that Jesus wanted to subvert that dominant myth of redemptive violence with a new myth of redemptive love, i.e., unconditional, radically inclusive, vulnerable love.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 17 2014, 7:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Apr. 16 2014, 6:33 pm)
QUOTE
Wink asserts that Jesus wanted to subvert that dominant myth of redemptive violence with a new myth of redemptive love, i.e., unconditional, radically inclusive, vulnerable love.[/i]

I agree with Wink's assertion.  Indeed I believe that's the central message of Christ's gospel, and embodied in "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile", "give him your cloak as well", "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and many other similar teachings.
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Some light Slayer please...
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 17 2014, 10:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Apr. 17 2014, 7:41 am)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Apr. 16 2014, 6:33 pm)
QUOTE
Wink asserts that Jesus wanted to subvert that dominant myth of redemptive violence with a new myth of redemptive love, i.e., unconditional, radically inclusive, vulnerable love.[/i]

I agree with Wink's assertion.  Indeed I believe that's the central message of Christ's gospel, and embodied in "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile", "give him your cloak as well", "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and many other similar teachings.

Most religions are good about preaching non-violence, but most of the followers have double- standards. Heck, even our fearless leader likes both  the bible and the missile.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 17 2014, 10:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Apr. 17 2014, 8:11 am)
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(KenV @ Apr. 17 2014, 7:41 am)
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(cweston @ Apr. 16 2014, 6:33 pm)
QUOTE
Wink asserts that Jesus wanted to subvert that dominant myth of redemptive violence with a new myth of redemptive love, i.e., unconditional, radically inclusive, vulnerable love.[/i]

I agree with Wink's assertion.  Indeed I believe that's the central message of Christ's gospel, and embodied in "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile", "give him your cloak as well", "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and many other similar teachings.

Most religions are good about preaching non-violence, but most of the followers have double- standards. Heck, even our fearless leader likes both  the bible and the missile.

I thought he was a Muslim?
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Some light Slayer please...
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 17 2014, 11:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wycanislatrans @ Apr. 17 2014, 10:39 am)
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(Scot @ Apr. 17 2014, 8:11 am)
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(KenV @ Apr. 17 2014, 7:41 am)
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(cweston @ Apr. 16 2014, 6:33 pm)
QUOTE
Wink asserts that Jesus wanted to subvert that dominant myth of redemptive violence with a new myth of redemptive love, i.e., unconditional, radically inclusive, vulnerable love.[/i]

I agree with Wink's assertion.  Indeed I believe that's the central message of Christ's gospel, and embodied in "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile", "give him your cloak as well", "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and many other similar teachings.

Most religions are good about preaching non-violence, but most of the followers have double- standards. Heck, even our fearless leader likes both  the bible and the missile.

I thought he was a Muslim?

Alien Muslim...GeT It Right.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 18 2014, 6:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The "redemptive violence" meta-myth seems to be addressed very early in the bible, thousands of years before Jesus comes on the scene.

When Cain kills his brother Able, god's punishment is NOT to kill him, but to curse the land so it will not yield crops for him.  When Cain cries out that others will kill him, god places a mark on him to warn others that anyone who kills Cain will suffer more than Cain.  That seems like a clear repudiation of redemptive violence to me, and it comes way back in Genesis.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 18 2014, 8:22 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

But Ken there's a little book called Exodus and another called Leviticus that give countless examples of using violence to punish violence.  Are you just "playing" us by ignoring that fact?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Apr. 18 2014, 8:22 am)
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But Ken there's a little book called Exodus and another called Leviticus that give countless examples of using violence to punish violence.  

Indeed.  And Exodus and Moses come a few thousand years after that account in Genesis.  So things started out quite different and end quite different.

QUOTE
Are you just "playing" us by ignoring that fact?
If you want to believe that, go right ahead.  But he poiunt is, many facets of the Law of Moses are reasonably well known.  Heck even you are somewhat familiar with them.  The law prior to Moses not so much.  Clearly prior to Moses things were very different.

On the other hand the law handed down to Moses directly by god, which we generally call the Ten Commandments, is devoid of any punishment, violent or otherwise.

So Moses, who started life as an Egyptian prince, authors a very strict and apparently very typically human law.  Whereas the law authored by god is VERY different and devoid of any retributive violence.

Happy now?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 12:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:17 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Apr. 18 2014, 8:22 am)
QUOTE
But Ken there's a little book called Exodus and another called Leviticus that give countless examples of using violence to punish violence.  

Indeed.  And Exodus and Moses come a few thousand years after that account in Genesis.  So things started out quite different and end quite different.

QUOTE
Are you just "playing" us by ignoring that fact?
If you want to believe that, go right ahead.  But he poiunt is, many facets of the Law of Moses are reasonably well known.  Heck even you are somewhat familiar with them.  The law prior to Moses not so much.  Clearly prior to Moses things were very different.

On the other hand the law handed down to Moses directly by god, which we generally call the Ten Commandments, is devoid of any punishment, violent or otherwise.

So Moses, who started life as an Egyptian prince, authors a very strict and apparently very typically human law.  Whereas the law authored by god is VERY different and devoid of any retributive violence.

Happy now?

Ken I'm always happy. Especially when you start chasing your tail. All of the commandments were supposedly handed down by God, not just the first ten. Hell it even says that right at the beginning, "And God spoke all these words, saying..."

And "all these words" include the following:

QUOTE
12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.

14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.

Notice Ken, that's God saying "my," not Moses.

QUOTE

15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.

17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.


And that's just a few of the examples. So in other words, what you said is total BS.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 12:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ken

One could just as reasonably argue the very first act of judgement is in Genesis, and mandating all of humanity forever be born with some kind of "Original sin" is indeed redemptive violence .. condemning people to hell would seem, for most, to be just that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 12:47 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Walkinman @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:40 am)
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Ken

One could just as reasonably argue the very first act of judgement is in Genesis, and mandating all of humanity forever be born with some kind of "Original sin" is indeed redemptive violence .. condemning people to hell would seem, for most, to be just that.

Plus there's the whole flood thing a few chapters later, long before Moses. I'm not sure Ken has actually ever read the Bible. Probably thinks it went missing along with those golden plates.
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(Walkinman @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:40 am)
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Ken

One could just as reasonably argue the very first act of judgement is in Genesis, and mandating all of humanity forever be born with some kind of "Original sin" is indeed redemptive violence .. condemning people to hell would seem, for most, to be just that.

And that whole "original sin" business is a human construct.  Nowhere did god say humans are born with original sin.  In my faith there is no such thing.  And in my faith no person, even the most heinous of mass muderers, are condemned to hell for eternity.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:52 am)
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And in my faith no person, even the most heinous of mass muderers, are condemned to hell for eternity.

So your heaven is no better than life on earth eh? Or is heaven something else you don't believe in?
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:47 am)
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Plus there's the whole flood thing a few chapters later, long before Moses. I'm not sure Ken has actually ever read the Bible. Probably thinks it went missing along with those golden plates.

You're assuming that "whole flood thing" was an act of punishment.  In my faith, it was not.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 12:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

LOL - Of course not. But you're not a Christian. You're a Mormon.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:54 am)
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:52 am)
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And in my faith no person, even the most heinous of mass muderers, are condemned to hell for eternity.

So your heaven is no better than life on earth eh? Or is heaven something else you don't believe in?

In my faith, what you call "heaven" has three degrees of glory. The lowest degree will be inherited by muderers and the like.   And it is WAY better than life on earth.  The highest degree is exaltation, which is life not just in the presence of god, but life with ALL of god's attributes.  People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:57 am)
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LOL - Of course not. But you're not a Christian. You're a Mormon.

I'm not Christian by YOUR standards.  Clu4U: players don't set the standards.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:00 am)
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People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god.

So it's more similar to Buddhism than Christianity.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:02 am)
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:57 am)
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LOL - Of course not. But you're not a Christian. You're a Mormon.

I'm not Christian by YOUR standards.  Clu4U: players don't set the standards.

You're not a Christian by any definition held by traditional Christians.  Clu4u, cultists don't get to redefine existing religions.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:03 am)
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:00 am)
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People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god.

So it's more similar to Buddhism than Christianity.

Clu4U:  players don't get to set that standard either.

And since when do Buddhists believe in Christ as the literal son of God, as our mediator with his father, as the creator of all humanity and the entire universe, as the savior and redeemer of all mankind, as the author of all humanity's salvation, and as a resurrected being whose resurrection made possible the resurrection of ALL humanity?  How "similar" to Buddhism is any of that?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 1:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Buddhists believe that enlightenment makes one a Buddha. Which is pretty similar to your statement, "People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god."

The fact is that very little of what you believe about Christianity is similar to what Christians believe.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:06 am)
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:02 am)
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 12:57 am)
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LOL - Of course not. But you're not a Christian. You're a Mormon.

I'm not Christian by YOUR standards.  Clu4U: players don't set the standards.

You're not a Christian by any definition held by traditional Christians.  Clu4u, cultists don't get to redefine existing religions.

Players don't get to decide who are "traditional" Christians, nor do they get to decide what beliefs make one a "traditional Christian", nor do they get to decide what constitutes a cult, nor who belongs to a cult.

Players DO believe they can make such calls, and you've made those calls many times, once again self identifyng yourself as a player.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:15 am)
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Buddhists believe that enlightenment makes one a Buddha. Which is pretty similar to your statement, "People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god."  

Clu4U, achieving "enlightenment" and achieving "exaltationi" are VERY different things and becoming a Buddha and becoming as god are VERY different things.

QUOTE
The fact is that very little of what you believe about Christianity is similar to what Christians believe.
Very little?  Really?  Name a Buddhist who believes in Christ as the literal son of God, as our mediator with his father, as the creator of all humanity and the entire universe, as the savior and redeemer of all mankind, as the author of all humanity's salvation, and as a resurrected being whose resurrection made possible the resurrection of ALL humanity?   And name a single what you call "traditional Christian" who does NOT believe in the above?
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2014, 1:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Traditional Christians have determined Mormons aren't Christians. Your own comments have confirmed you don't accept most of the basic tenets of Christianity. Just because Christianity hijacked Judaism doesn't mean Mormons will be successful hijacking Christianity, but you're cute as hell giving it all you got Ken.  Good luck buddy.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:26 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:15 am)
QUOTE
Buddhists believe that enlightenment makes one a Buddha. Which is pretty similar to your statement, "People who achieve exaltation will essentially be as god."

The fact is that very little of what you believe about Christianity is similar to what Christians believe.

Clu4U, achieving "enlightenment" and achieving "exaltationi" are VERY different things and becoming a Buddha and becoming as god are VERY different things.

Umm no Ken, they're not. Same exact concept.

QUOTE


Very little?  Really?  Name a Buddhist who believes in Christ as the literal son of God, as our mediator with his father, as the creator of all humanity and the entire universe, as the savior and redeemer of all mankind, as the author of all humanity's salvation, and as a resurrected being whose resurrection made possible the resurrection of ALL humanity?   And name a single what you call "traditional Christian" who does NOT believe in the above?


That part is "very little" of the whole of Christian beliefs Ken.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:28 am)
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Umm no Ken, they're not. Same exact concept.

Spoken like a true player who thinks he can declare not only how people believe, but the very nature of what they believe.

QUOTE
That part is "very little" of the whole of Christian beliefs Ken.


Clu4U: Christ as the literal son of God, as our mediator with his father, as the creator of all humanity and the entire universe, as the savior and redeemer of all mankind, as the author of all humanity's salvation, and as a resurrected being whose resurrection made possible the resurrection of ALL humanity is the very heart, soul, and essence of Christianity and is by no means a "very little" part of it.
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:26 am)
QUOTE
Traditional Christians have determined Mormons aren't Christians. Your own comments have confirmed you don't accept most of the basic tenets of Christianity.

Really?  Name a single biblical "basic tenet of Christianity" I don't believe in.  Just one.


QUOTE
Just because Christianity hijacked Judaism doesn't mean Mormons will be successful hijacking Christianity, but you're cute as hell giving it all you got Ken.  Good luck buddy.
And good luck to you and your player ways.  You're gonna need it.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:32 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:28 am)
QUOTE
Umm no Ken, they're not. Same exact concept.

Spoken like a true player who thinks he can declare not only what people believe, but the very nature of what they believe.

No dummy, I'm comparing the two concepts.

Buddhism - enlightenment makes one a buddha
Kenism - exaltation makes one as god

You really too dense to see the similarities?


QUOTE
Clu4U: Christ as the literal son of God, as our mediator with his father, as the creator of all humanity and the entire universe, as the savior and redeemer of all mankind, as the author of all humanity's salvation, and as a resurrected being whose resurrection made possible the resurrection of ALL humanity is the very heart, soul, and essence of Christianity and is by no means a "very little" part of it.


That's one part of Christianity, I agree. Agreeing with one part while rejecting the rest doesn't make you a Christian anymore than Christians agreeing with a few parts of the Torah while rejecting the rest makes them Jewish.
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(KenV @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:35 am)
QUOTE

(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:26 am)
QUOTE
Traditional Christians have determined Mormons aren't Christians. Your own comments have confirmed you don't accept most of the basic tenets of Christianity.

Really?  Name a single biblical "basic tenet of Christianity" I don't believe in.  Just one.

Just one? Eternal damnation. Want another?
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(HighGravity @ Apr. 21 2014, 1:41 am)
QUOTE
No dummy, I'm comparing the two concepts.

Buddhism - enlightenment makes one a buddha
Kenism - exaltation makes one as god

You really too dense to see the similarities?

Similarities?  Really?  Are you "really too dense" to see the gross difference?  Let's examine your player claim:

From the online free dictionary:

Buddha:  One who has achieved a state of perfect spiritual enlightenment in accordance with the teachings of Buddha.  Achieving nirvana.

Nirvana:  transcending the cycle of reincarnation; characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness

So achieving enlightenment and nirvana in buddhism results in a person literally losing one's individual identity and even consciousness.  They beomce "one" with the universe and are no longer individuals subject to the desires and suffering of individuals.  From a Mormon perspective losing one's identity and one's consciousness is the ultimate from of non-existance.  Such a non-existance is more similar to the concept believed by the Jehovah's Witnesses, which BTW is another Christian religion NOTHING like Buddhism.



Exaltation:  Making and keeping covenants in earth life that include being baptized, marrying a spouse for eternity, being sealed to parents and children for eternity, and otherwise qualifying one to take part in the morning of the first resurrection along with Christ and his disciples, being resurrected with a Celestial body, and qualifying for eternal progression in the afterlife that eventually leads to being a co-heir with Christ in ALL that god has, including all his knowledge, power. desires, emotions, and yes, even his pains.  In short become as god.

Buddhists do NOT become anything approaching "as god".  It's like saying that becoming a part of the pot and becoming the potter are "similar".  Are you "really too dense" to see the difference between the pot and the potter?

QUOTE
That's one part of Christianity, I agree. Agreeing with one part while rejecting the rest doesn't make you a Christian anymore than Christians agreeing with a few parts of the Torah while rejecting the rest makes them Jewish.
Come on, player.  You keep making empty claims and sidestepping the question.  What biblical "part of Christianity" do I reject?
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