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Topic: The Death Knell For The Death Sentence?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 3:53 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Maybe this little Oklahoma fiasco will finally force America into the civilized world vis a vis the death sentence??

One can only hope, I suppose.

NewsChannel 4&#8242;s Courtney Francisco was a witness to the scheduled execution, she provided the following time line:

6:23 PM – Prison officials raise the blinds. Execution begins.

6:28 PM – Inmate shivering, sheet shaking.  Breathing deep.

6:29 PM – Inmate blinking and gritting his teeth.  Adjusts his head.

6:30 PM – Prison officials check to see if inmate is unconscious.  Doctor says “He’s not unconscious”.  Inmate says “I’m not.”  Female prison official says, “Mr. Lockett is not unconscious.”

6:32 PM – Inmate’s breathing is normal, mouth open, eyes shut. For a second time, prison officials check to see if inmate is unconscious.

6:33 PM – Doctor says, “He is unconscious.” Prison official says “Mr. Lockett is unconscious.”

6:34 PM – Inmate’s mouth twitches.  No sign of breathing.

6:35 PM – Mouth movement.

6:36 PM – Inmate’s head moves from side to side, then lifts his head off the bed.

6:37 PM – Inmate lifts his head and feet slightly off the bed.  Inmate tries to say something, mumbles while moving body.

6:38 pm – More movement by the inmate.  At this point the inmate is breathing heavily and appears to be struggling.

6:39 PM – Inmate tries to talk.  Says “Man” and appears to be trying to get up.  Doctor checks on inmate. Female prison official says, “We are going to lower the blinds temporarily”.  Prison phone rings.  Director of Prisons, Robert Patton answers the phone and leaves the room – taking three state officials with him.

Minutes later – The Director Of Prisons comes back into the room and tells the eyewitnesses that there has been a vein failure. He says, “The chemical did not make it into the vein of the prisoner.  Under my authority, we are issuing a stay of execution.”




http://kfor.com/2014....ion-set


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I doubt it. Too many people consider revenge justice.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If all the instances of wrongful convictions overturned aren't enough to convince states to rethink the death penalty, I doubt this incident will change their minds.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Hungry Jack @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:05 pm)
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If all the instances of wrongful convictions overturned aren't enough to convince states to rethink the death penalty, I doubt this incident will change their minds.

You are absolutely correct, and I am in full agreement.

But, it is not necessary convince the states.

Only need 5 Justices on the Supreme Court, and it is toast.

Given how this has developed, and how the world pharma industries are shunning death drugs, I am fairly encouraged that SCOTUS may finally say no more.  

Death by the state is cruel and unusual, no matter how you parse it.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The wrongful convictions should be enough to kill the death penalty. Without a method to prove 100% guilt, we should not be killing those accused.

However, I have NO sympathy if Clayton Lockett happened to suffer….if he was in fact guilty. If a person’s crimes truly justify death, there is no need for it to be painless.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news....3478725
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So, you're OK with it if we violate the Constitutional Right to be free from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?  

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 4:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:23 pm)
QUOTE

(Hungry Jack @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:05 pm)
QUOTE
If all the instances of wrongful convictions overturned aren't enough to convince states to rethink the death penalty, I doubt this incident will change their minds.

You are absolutely correct, and I am in full agreement.

But, it is not necessary convince the states.

Only need 5 Justices on the Supreme Court, and it is toast.

Given how this has developed, and how the world pharma industries are shunning death drugs, I am fairly encouraged that SCOTUS may finally say no more.  

Death by the state is cruel and unusual, no matter how you parse it.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:45 pm)
QUOTE
The wrongful convictions should be enough to kill the death penalty. Without a method to prove 100% guilt, we should not be killing those accused.

However, I have NO sympathy if Clayton Lockett happened to suffer….if he was in fact guilty. If a person’s crimes truly justify death, there is no need for it to be painless.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news....3478725

True, that!

EXCEPT for that pesky Constitution you love and revere so much!

Kinda like the Bible, neh?  If we could just have the parts you like SO much, and ignore all those, other, bothersome parts?  LOL


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 5:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No, I don’t interpret the modern methods of execution, or even the botched job in OK, as “cruel and unusual”.

But, either way, I’m not one to point to the Constitution as the ultimate code of human rights, and I’m also a lifelong heathen....so neither are dictating my opinion.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 5:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Right...cruel and unusual.....letting even admitted killers live on for years while we go "through the motions"

That is cruel....to the families of the victims

The most that this case should be is a call for more competence in the executioners

As far as wrongful convictions....I am all for holding prosecutors liable for their mistakes


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 5:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(markinOhio @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:45 pm)
QUOTE
The wrongful convictions should be enough to kill the death penalty. Without a method to prove 100% guilt, we should not be killing those accused.

However, I have NO sympathy if Clayton Lockett happened to suffer….if he was in fact guilty. If a person’s crimes truly justify death, there is no need for it to be painless.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news....3478725

I don't believe in the state inflicting harm / pain on an individual as retribution for heinous crimes against society. That puts us back to the Dark Ages. We cannot have a society that codifies that type of justice. No way.

Moral argument aside, it's impossible from a practical standpoint where you would draw the line between crimes that merit torture as punishment and those that don't.

But, I did not feel an ounce of remorse when Jeffrey Dahmer was dispatched in prison by a thug with a broomstick or bat or whatever it was. He did us all a favor.

So, from an individual perspective, I don't have a problem with vengeance, provided the vengeful one is prosecuted to the full extent of the law (minus the death penalty).


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 5:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have no problem with vengeance either, but to have any meaning and to be effective it needs to be personal.  No way can the hired bureaucrats at the state ever wreak vengeance on any wrong doer.

The parent, the husband, wife, brother, sister, grandparent, lover, business partner, any of these are the ones to do the avenging, and to be willing to suffer the legal and moral consequences of doing so.

Vengeance is personal and no government entity can ever be effective with vengeance as the goal.  IMHO

I can imagine scenarios in which I would gladly and viciously kill someone who murdered or raped one of my loved ones, but I would also expect to spend life in prison for doing so.  

I would never, ever support the state killing that same person when he/she was a helpless prisoner, much rather that they have to live as long as possible in the living death of prison.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 6:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Apr. 30 2014, 2:52 pm)
QUOTE
So, you're OK with it if we violate the Constitutional Right to be free from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?  

But you're OK with a killer violating an innocent person's right to be free from cruel and unusual "punishment" and getting  away with it by staying alive?

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 6:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Seems the humaner we try to make the method, the more suffering we inflict. At least with a guillotine and firing squad, the outcome was swift and assured.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 6:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 30 2014, 6:03 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Apr. 30 2014, 2:52 pm)
QUOTE
So, you're OK with it if we violate the Constitutional Right to be free from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?  

But you're OK with a killer violating an innocent person's right to be free from cruel and unusual "punishment" and getting  away with it by staying alive?

I am never ok with anyone being murdered, but I am completely ok with the murderer being prosecuted under the laws and locked in prison for as long as he/she lives.  That is not "getting away with it", that is proper government by rule of law.

It is a step up the ladder of civilization and of human morality, and I keep hoping that our nation will take that step.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 6:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Putting someone in a cage and treating them like an animal for the remainder of their life is far more cruel than just killing them.

Hell, putting animals in cages is inhumane.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 6:48 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 30 2014, 6:36 pm)
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Putting someone in a cage and treating them like an animal for the remainder of their life is far more cruel than just killing them.

Hell, putting animals in cages is inhumane.

Yep being locked in a cage for the remainder of one's life is cruel, but we, as human beings have the mental capacity to distinguish between right and wrong and know the consequences of our actions. An animal is not capable of either, and the animal that is caged had no choice in the matter.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 7:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(ol-zeke @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:52 pm)
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So, you're OK with it if we violate the Constitutional Right to be free from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?  

What was cruel and unusual about this?  Most people who die of natural causes suffer much, much more.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 9:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Disagreed with the death penalty before this just due to exonerations.  I still think prisons should have "Air Supply" and "Spandau Ballet" greatest hits piped in 24/7 though as part of a behavior medication program (the prisoners might just choose death however).  The 70's group Bread has to have some cheap CDs out there...

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 10:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(no_granola @ Apr. 30 2014, 7:22 pm)
QUOTE

(ol-zeke @ Apr. 30 2014, 4:52 pm)
QUOTE
So, you're OK with it if we violate the Constitutional Right to be free from Cruel and Unusual Punishment?  

What was cruel and unusual about this?  Most people who die of natural causes suffer much, much more.

You kinda contradict your argument that via "natural causes."

I guess if you are lucky, the end comes swiftly and painlessly, like a massive cerebral hemorrhage in your sleep.

But a society that chooses to deliberately inflict physical pain on someone as punishment? What is the point? What is the benefit?


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 11:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

An execution should be by the means in which the perpetrator killed the victim.
The executee would then receive the same treatment as s/he gave the victim.


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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 30 2014, 11:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ Apr. 30 2014, 11:11 pm)
QUOTE
An execution should be by the means in which the perpetrator killed the victim.
The executee would then receive the same treatment as s/he gave the victim.

Do you really think doubling the murder rate is going to be a deterrent?

I understand the logic of "eye for an eye" and it makes sense to a degree. But if you just have one wrongful conviction that results in execution, society has  committed a horrifically irreversible mistake.

Given the risk (probability) of a wrongful conviction, I think the death penalty should be abolished. I once felt differently, but changed my view in large part to the work of the Center of Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern (Go Cats!). I'd rather us pay taxes to prop up scumbags for life in prison than risk one mistakenly administered death penalty.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 12:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Besides, it costs much less in our legal system!

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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 6:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

QUOTE
Do you really think doubling the murder rate is going to be a deterrent?

There are no repeat offenders.

QUOTE
Given the risk (probability) of a wrongful conviction

The death sentence should not be applied in circumstantial evidence and conviction cases but only when there is absolute clear physical evidence. Such as DNA, clear video, GSR, etc, and the accused has been caught committing the act at the scene.
Witnesses not so much since there can be 10 witnesses to a crime and every one can have a different description of who committed it.


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(Montanalonewolf @ May 01 2014, 6:36 am)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Do you really think doubling the murder rate is going to be a deterrent?

There are no repeat offenders.

QUOTE
Given the risk (probability) of a wrongful conviction

The death sentence should not be applied in circumstantial evidence and conviction cases but only when there is absolute clear physical evidence. Such as DNA, clear video, GSR, etc, and the accused has been caught committing the act at the scene.
Witnesses not so much since there can be 10 witnesses to a crime and every one can have a different description of who committed it.

LOL. Repeat offenders are pretty hard to find when the sentence is life, also.

I would still argue that it is impossible to selectively apply the death sentence and not run the risk of a mistaken conviction and execution. It sounds good on paper, but mistakes, errors, lies, black swans, etc. are inevitable. It is just not worth risk.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 11:39 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ May 01 2014, 12:17 am)
QUOTE
Besides, it costs much less in our legal system!

So fix the system

This is a good start

http://www.techdirt.com/article....s.shtml


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 11:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just eliminating the death penalty altogether would fix the system just fine, and would save taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that could be used for law enforcement and rehabilitation programs, instead of lining the pockets of hundreds of lawyers.

Surely the Tea Hatters favor that, don't they??   :p


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 11:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Typical liberal logic

We are wasting millions of $$$ with a screwed up system of endless appeals so we should just stop actually executing bad people and store them indefinitely

Of course those same bad people will probably still file endless appeals...but hey...on paper it looks like we are saving money

Or are you going to deny these poor incarcerated folks their right to appeal simply because they can no longer be executed???

For shame.....and just to save $$$$

We cannot afford for you to have any legal rights you scum!


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 12:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Uhh, Billy, go take a look at the number and cost for death penalty appeals as compared to all other appeals of criminal convictions, and then get back to us.

Try some real numbers.

And the real reason to stop having the state kill people for us has nothing to do with the cost.

It has everything to do with a moral, civilized society that has recognized the futility and self-destruction involved in such activities.

This would be one, important, step to move away from being a society of violence, and we should get started before we tear ourselves apart.  IMHO


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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2014, 12:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The whimp way out for the whimps.

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