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Topic: Min Wage $15/hr in Seattle, Seattle to collapse< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 10:38 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.nytimes.com/2014....ml?_r=0

This has been in the works for quite some time and it looks pretty certain to pass.

Personally I think this is a good thing as people will be able to make a much more reasonable living wage.

Also once the $15 has been fully implemented it will be indexed to inflation which is where our Federal Minimum wage has the biggest issues.

I am sure many on the right are predicting the immediate collapse of Seattle due to this highest in the country minimum wage.

After all since Washington state has the highest minimum wage in the country and the highest unemployment compensation we SURELY must have the highest unemployment numbers in the country....oh wait.......
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 10:53 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No large corporation is quitting Seattle certainly, they'll just send more money that way over time, maybe raise prices (in Seattle .. ... and other locations) though Seattle govt may respond to the latter..  It isn't immediate, however.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's not the large corporations that will be hurt, it will be the restaurant industry, retail, and small businesses like cleaning services that rely heavily on cheap unskilled labor.

I understand that as it is likely to pass, the $15 wage can not be adjusted for tips.  This is going to make that burger at Applebee's really expensive.

NPR Story
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ May 02 2014, 9:00 am)
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It's not the large corporations that will be hurt, it will be the restaurant industry, retail, and small businesses like cleaning services that rely heavily on cheap unskilled labor.

I understand that as it is likely to pass, the $15 wage can not be adjusted for tips...

Last time I was in Seattle (summers of 2006-07 for workshops) it was tough finding an affordable local bar n'grill in the convention area. since it was overpriced back then anyways.  The concierge pointed us to the city limits (of course that's where the police set up the DWI checkpoints which was the debate back then - the only reason I remember it, besides always hoofing it to Rockfish with coworkers - a TX chain iirc).   Now a regular bar was pretty easy to find but nothing with a mix of bartenders+restaurant workers.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Except that increase will be passed on to the customer. Will you still eat out (even occasionally) when your meal doubles in price?
How about your grocery prices increasing to pay that unskilled stockboy $15/hour?
Or how about your rent going up because the lawnmower guy now gets 2X as much as before?

It's a nice idea but as labor costs go up, so will the price of goods and services.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 02 2014, 9:11 am)
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.. How about your grocery prices increasing to pay that unskilled stockboy $15/hour?
Or how about your rent going up because the lawnmower guy now gets 2X as much as before?

It's a nice idea but as labor costs go up, so will the price of goods and services.

Well it's not taking place immediately so there will be a chance to gauge reactions or whether it will "stick".  Also there's automation as chains are starting to use tablet computers for ordering anyways (think the test sites were on the East coast).  Instead of that sexy bar maiden, you were going to get the latest Samsung tablet anyways .. :p

Just sooner for Seattle. Oh my TVC15 ... as Bowie once sang.

It's also just my opinion with less government spending (whether someone is philosophically for or against government spending Keynes style), prices will start getting more volatile i.e. .. more boom/bust cycles.   Wages are just one piece of the puzzle.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well it appears that Seattle will collapse for sure, so I had best move soon to avoid the apocalypse!!!!

Prices will go up some but so will wages for people.  People will be able to actually EARN a living.

Now back in the day when the Federal minimum wage was higher in earning power than it is today were things unaffordable then?  

People always seem to harp on the doom and gloom aspects of things, but like I said Washington state already HAS the highest minimum wage.....yet we don't have even CLOSE to the highest unemployment rate NOR the highest cost of living.

So how does that work then if paying people more AUTOMATICALLY means everything costs more and fewer people have jobs?  On a state by state level that does not seem to bear out.

http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/min_wage.htm   they say that a 10% increase in wages results in a less than 1% reduction in employment BUT more people earn a livable wage.

http://www.ibtimes.com/minimum....loyment  turns out that having the highest minimum wage in the country actually has allowed Washington state to have people making better money AND lower unemployment rates than places with much lower wages.......

But then I guess 16 years is just a blip and a mistake and NOW it will really become an issue.

FYI the state is ALSO working on an increase in the minimum wage as well, but not as high as $15 like in Seattle itself.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(geophagous @ May 02 2014, 9:37 am)
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Well it appears that Seattle will collapse for sure, so I had best move soon to avoid the apocalypse!!!!

Prices will go up some but so will wages for people.  People will be able to actually EARN a living.

...

http://www.ibtimes.com/minimum....loyment  turns out that having the highest minimum wage in the country actually has allowed Washington state to have people making better money AND lower unemployment rates than places with much lower wages.......

But then I guess 16 years is just a blip and a mistake and NOW it will really become an issue.

FYI the state is ALSO working on an increase in the minimum wage as well, but not as high as $15 like in Seattle itself.

I've told young people with massive college debt to try and find better wages in coastal cities.  Yeah, the cost of living tends to rise but that college debt stays the same.  Throw some in some savings, find a nice mate (instead of the water buffalo available in flyover country), .... then if they want, semi-retire to the countryside with some bankroll.  It's easier downsizing .... selling a coastal home that could buy 3 of the similar in a landlocked state than vice versa usually.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 11:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

An unheralded detail:

"Tips and employer-paid health care benefits also would be factored in getting to the $15 level for smaller companies, at least in the earlier years of the plan."

So it looks to establish a more reliable floor, but with nuances.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

That inclusion is only for the interim period.  Once the 3-7 year period has elapsed, depending on business size, then it becomes a straight $15/hr and tips/benefits do not count toward that amount.

This was part of the negotiations that took place that allowed business and labor to agree to this proposal.  Neither side got everything they wanted but rather a compromise for all.  Something that it appears is a dirty word to some.....
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

So more of the phase in ramping up. Probably necessary, better for the tradition I suppose.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 02 2014, 9:11 am)
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Except that increase will be passed on to the customer. Will you still eat out (even occasionally) when your meal doubles in price?

Mostly this is true ... but we adjust.  Back when gasoline started going up 2004-2010, I started taking fewer backpacking trips (which I probably had to do anyways as my residence started to get neglected).  Most people could probably do with fewer lard-encrusted restaurant meals

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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No big deal. Not gonna notice much of an increase at the stores. The sky isn't falling and this isn't 1980, 15 dollars an hour isn't exactly breaking the bank.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 02 2014, 9:11 am)
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Except that increase will be passed on to the customer. Will you still eat out (even occasionally) when your meal doubles in price?
How about your grocery prices increasing to pay that unskilled stockboy $15/hour?
Or how about your rent going up because the lawnmower guy now gets 2X as much as before?

It's a nice idea but as labor costs go up, so will the price of goods and services.

This same stuff gets pouted every single time anyone proposes raising the minimum wage, by even a quarter.  Every time.  And yet it doesn't end up causing all the doom and gloom as predicted.  Hasn't yet.  Prices go up, but they don't double, and the total rise in the standard of living for the whole society tends to increase at a greater rate.  I, for one, am glad I don't live in the midst of abject poverty all around me and that if I start a business there will be a population who can afford to spend money on it, even if it means I pay a bit more for an apple.

The existence of a minimum wage is one of the few reasons we don't live in a "banana republic" right now.  Go see countries with zero minimum wage and assess what the basic standard of living is for 99.9% of the population in those countries.  Not exactly Eden, as it were, even if it is a Libertarian's wet-dream paradise (I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year).


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 12:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You do know that when the wage increases your obligation to tip decreases, right? Minnesota pays a slightly higher wage, quite a few of their residents come over here and tip us like we're making the same money. They're 10% tippers generally.
As it is now your tip is really the only pay I get to take home. My check pays my taxes on those tips... and that's about it. Why are you so cool with them making you pay their employees wages?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 1:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

This is going to cause the US to send all the labor to Mexico and China. Doctors will flee and America is going to be a turd world country. All because the price of a whopper will triple.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 1:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If they send all the restaurant jobs to Mexico you guys are going to have a real problem on your hands.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 3:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While I don't agree with a minimum wage, I'm happy to see a state exercising its right. As long as the Fed doesn't follow, all the more power to Seattle. Good luck!

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(star @ May 02 2014, 10:28 am)
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If they send all the restaurant jobs to Mexico you guys are going to have a real problem on your hands.

That'd be serious "take away" as NYr's say it.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 4:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I saw a post on FOX  about the minimum wage going up...

"How are all those people who were making a good money before this going to feel now that they are making only minimum wage?"


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 8:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Economic Effects of Minimum Wage
Small Business Employment

The minimum wage directly affects small businesses because a large amount of their earnings go directly to pay for operating expenses, such as equipment, supplies, lease or mortgage, credit lines, inventory, and employee wages and benefits. The single largest cost to small businesses are the latter; employee wages and benefits and are also one of the few costs that can be controlled. However, if a higher minimum wage is enacted, they must hire fewer employees or downsize to comply with the minimum wage law, which has a direct impact on unemployment rates.
Poverty

Research conducted by the Heritage Foundation in 2003 found that raising the minimum wage would not curtail poverty levels because of the percentage of people employed full-time earning minimum wage, and "review of the Census data indicates that fewer than one-quarter of those affected by the proposed new minimum wage work full time." This means 75 percent of minimum wage earners are part-time employees and do not rely on their income to sustain current or higher living standards, which translates to a slight increase in consumer spending but does not positively impact poverty levels.

Related Reading: The Effects of Minimum Wage on Businesses
Labor Markets

Labor is a commodity and therefore is subjected to market forces. If the minimum wage is increased by the government, more skilled and educated workers will also seek pay increases as persons that are unskilled and not as educated are awarded a higher wage not because of market forces, but government policy. This increases volatility in the labor markets as experienced and skilled workers are forced to reassess their value upward, which may not be accepted by employers.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/economic-effects-minimum-wage-2690.html


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Montanalonewolf @ May 02 2014, 6:46 pm)
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Research conducted by the Heritage Foundation

The Heritage Foundation is not a research organization.  They are a propaganda organization funded entirely by big industry that tries to fake "research" to whomever will believe it's presenting an equivalent.

Having seen the underside of their little joke of a propaganda machine in the "NIPCC" (industry's propaganda answer to the IPCC climate reports), you'll have to excuse me if I chuckle at "research conducted by the Heritage Foundation."  An opinion piece does not a research article make.


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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 9:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've heard the same crap that MLW is spouting ever since I worked for $1.65 an hour in 1974. It's bull excretement. Always has been, always will be.
Prices have outpaced wages for 30 or 40 years.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 9:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW

I guess actually data is trumped by that "research institute" as well then hey?  I mean the actual real life outcome for the last 16 years has NOT borne out the  ridiculous assumptions they make in their "paper".

But hey I like what their paper says as it reinforces my current beliefs.....unlike real life which has a well known liberal bias!!!

Can you explain why the actual data does NOT conform to their theory???
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2014, 9:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There's a Chicken Little Convention in Seattle this weekend . . .

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No data can possibly be true if one disagrees with the findings.

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(Montanalonewolf @ May 02 2014, 7:52 pm)
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No data can possibly be true if one disagrees with the findings.

You're making an assumption that the Heritage Foundation's "findings" are based on data.  They aren't an organization that performs research.  They craft propaganda.  They start with a specific conclusion and then cherry pick bits of data to make a case to gullible people. It's 100% of what they do for a living.

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(mtnsteve @ May 02 2014, 4:07 pm)
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I saw a post on FOX  about the minimum wage going up...

"How are all those people who were making a good money before this going to feel now that they are making only minimum wage?"

I've gotten that one too.... well then the next bunch up is going to want more money!
So what if they do?


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PostIcon Posted on: May 03 2014, 12:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

MLW

Simple then find some data.  Not opinion pieces or "research" that does not even rise to the level of Wikipedia!!!

If Wikipedia does agoodr job of demolishing that supply driven fantasy crap you posted how can you possibly agree with a THEORY when actual numbers prove you wrong?

Or do you disagree with the data I found and thus are dismissing the liberal bias of reality?
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(star @ May 02 2014, 8:34 pm)
QUOTE

(mtnsteve @ May 02 2014, 4:07 pm)
QUOTE
I saw a post on FOX  about the minimum wage going up...

"How are all those people who were making a good money before this going to feel now that they are making only minimum wage?"

I've gotten that one too.... well then the next bunch up is going to want more money!
So what if they do?

I was going to tell him perhaps he should just work a little harder but I couldn't be sure if he was being serious.

I've been through a lot of min wage hikes in my years and I can't remember once when I notice any effect on me.

I am sure those that got their wages increased did notice.

btw... Congress gets a $2800.00 cost of living adjustment January 1st, 2015.

Count on Congress to take care of themselves  ???


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