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Topic: Saying Goodbye to Coal Plants, Best idea Obama has had yet< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 11:54 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No offense to coal miners and coal states, but BO's proposals to greatly curb the use of coal in power gen is his best policy idea yet, IMO.

Why? Coal is one nasty pollutant: Particulates, sulfates, CO2 and lead and mercury is coal's legacy to our environment, not to mention cancer from coal dust.

We also have reasonable alternatives to coal today: gas- and oil-fired plants; solar (it's catching on), wind and other renewables (not a huge source, but increasingly viable); as energy efficiency.

I hate the fact that lake perch in Illinois are so full of mercury that expectant mothers and kids should not eat them. I hate that acid rain is damaging eastern forests and lakes. I hate that the coal plant on Chicago's southwest side led to increased rates of respiratory disease.

There is no need for any of this. Finally, some relief (I hope).


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

No offense to coal miners, indeed.

--------------
"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Considering that once released into the environment mercury never leaves and only bio accumulates more and more the further up the food chain you go reducing the amount of mercury we spew into the environment seems like a pretty good thing.

THAT is "settled" science......

Now add that really we are talking about the first steps to reducing some of our carbon spewing....well that seems like an about time moment.

Coal was a wonderful material back in the 19th century.....look how wonderful it was in London......

Today we can move away from it with relatively few negative impacts AND it can stay in the ground not hurting a thing.  THEN if we need it for some reason we can always get it latter.....once we burn it, well it is gone forever.

More focus on renewable energy is just good for business.  Unlike all of the fossil fuels and nuclear energy, renewable energy resources are just that....something that we will NOT be using up.

Yes coal miners will lose jobs, coal fired plants will close, electricity MAY go up a bit, but the benefits outweigh the negatives.

After all we have made a HUGE impact in both acid rain and the ozone layer and neither of these collapsed the economy like those on the right predicted.  Guess doom and gloom are NOT required to be a better steward of the environment!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:35 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 9:10 am)
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No offense to coal miners, indeed.

I hear shepherds and the folks that wrote books by hand felt the same way....back in the day.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(mtnsteve @ Jun. 04 2014, 12:35 pm)
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(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 9:10 am)
QUOTE
No offense to coal miners, indeed.

I hear shepherds and the folks that wrote books by hand felt the same way....back in the day.

Die you peasant scum, then?

--------------
"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 10:38 am)
QUOTE

(mtnsteve @ Jun. 04 2014, 12:35 pm)
QUOTE

(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 9:10 am)
QUOTE
No offense to coal miners, indeed.

I hear shepherds and the folks that wrote books by hand felt the same way....back in the day.

Die you peasant scum, then?

Die?  Hardly.  Adapt.  The economy seems to have recovered from the loss of leather buggy-whip producers.  They now make air bags and anti-lock brakes.

Moving away from the single-largest polluting source of energy we've ever used on large scales, to cleaner more sustainable alternatives--especially now that the sustainable alternatives are very near to being as cheap as the dirtier alternatives and don't poison us in the meantime--only makes sense for the longer term.

As it is, coal mining has never exactly been one of "America's best jobs."


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 12:50 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 9:38 am)
QUOTE

(mtnsteve @ Jun. 04 2014, 12:35 pm)
QUOTE

(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 9:10 am)
QUOTE
No offense to coal miners, indeed.

I hear shepherds and the folks that wrote books by hand felt the same way....back in the day.

Die you peasant scum, then?

Of course.....

Wouldn't want to suggest they go back to school and get retrained would we? You know, like everyone else who loses a job to new technology. The loggers on the west coast learned after they cut all the big trees down and closed the mills because it was cheaper than retro fitting them to work with the smaller logs that were left.

But then we are talking about the West coast and not one of those uneducated southern states that teaches the earth is 4000 years old, climate change is a myth and polluting the air and water is good for you. :)


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 1:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Awww, does denigrating an entire region of the country make you feel like an enlightened soul?  Or just better than them?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 10:09 am)
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Awww, does denigrating an entire region of the country make you feel like an enlightened soul?  Or just better than them?

Damn straight it does

I have several friends who moved out here from Virginia, Kentucky and Alabama and they feel the same way...they moved here for their kids...and to get better jobs.


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"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

ok, speechless.

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"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 1:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 04 2014, 1:09 pm)
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Awww, does denigrating an entire region of the country make you feel like an enlightened soul?  Or just better than them?

There are different ways to interpret my post as a reflection of my personal feelings.

If you think I have it out for coal miners and the communities they inhabit, then the problem is you--not me.

The economy is always changing and restructuring. With some foresight, miners and their communities need not necessarily suffer.

It's asinine to think that we cannot live without coal given the technologies already available, and the damage that coal does to our health and environment.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 2:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ok, live without coal.  Cut your life off from coal.  Have at it.

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"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 2:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yeah, breakup with coal. Then you can have rebound energy.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 2:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

DO IT!

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"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 2:52 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The only thing coal is good for is filtering fart gas.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 3:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"We can never move out of the status quo!  Never!  Won't happen!"

Been proven wrong more times than anyone can count.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 3:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I worked at a coal mine for 5 years back in the '80s. It had many interesting aspects, but there is nothing clean about it. Battery acid, hydraulic oil and other leaks. Just friggin nasty. My sister wouldn't let me use her washing machine to wash my work clothes.  :D
In 1980 you could see mountain peaks from the Pinnacle overlook in Cumberland Gap NHP. Now they are all flat tops.  :angry:
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 4:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Good in the long term, but it's gonna hurt in the short term. A lot. Expect to pay double or triple what you're currently paying for utilities. Energy conservation is going to be taken very seriously.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jun. 04 2014, 2:17 pm)
QUOTE
Good in the long term, but it's gonna hurt in the short term. A lot. Expect to pay double or triple what you're currently paying for utilities. Energy conservation is going to be taken very seriously.

Would've been true 20 years ago.  Costs are still coming down on solar, and large-scale projects are starting to become competitive financially with fossil-fuel projects.

It's got a bit to go yet, but most estimates of current cost trends (even ignoring the externalized costs of pollution and health issues) put solar to be as cheap as fossil fuels--even without subsidization--by circa 2025 or so.  At that point, you'll see a huge shift in usage... not because of any EPA orders or state mandates, but simply because of economics.  I don't think fossil fuels will ever be fully out of the equation, but the "double or triple the cost" estimates aren't working out that way with current market trends.

Don't take my word for it, read the comments from the US Secretary of Energy on the matter.

FWIW, energy conservation already is taken seriously.  Which is good.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 4:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Jun. 04 2014, 1:17 pm)
QUOTE
Good in the long term, but it's gonna hurt in the short term. A lot. Expect to pay double or triple what you're currently paying for utilities. Energy conservation is going to be taken very seriously.

Hell the transition is timed for the "long term".

This isn't happening by next Thursday.

Not even by next century:

"a proposed Environmental Protection Agency regulation to cut carbon pollution from the nation’s power plants 30 percent from 2005 levels by 2030,"

Double or triple utility costs? From a "proposed" 30% reduction by 2030?  Giggle.

http://www2.epa.gov/carbon-....ed-rule
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 5:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The far right is very concerned about the budgetary impact of all those coal miners finding other jobs.

The miners might start living long enough to receive Medicare and Social Security payments.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 7:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here is wacky thought

Work with "big coal" to wind down pollution, etc

Crazy...Right?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 8:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Jun. 04 2014, 5:57 pm)
QUOTE
Here is wacky thought

Work with "big coal" to wind down pollution, etc

Crazy...Right?

Because big coal has such a great track record of voluntarily protecting the environment so far.  Brilliant idea.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 8:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hungry Jack
QUOTE
No offense to coal miners and coal states


Coal miners and coal states aren't exactly sitting still while the US burns less coal. There seems to be a slump for now, but coal mining companies are developing new markets in countries that need the imported coal in order to produce their electrical power. Excerpts from The New Future for American Coal: Export It :

As environmental restrictions and abundant natural gas reduce coal consumption at home, exports have become more important for U.S. mining companies. U.S. coal shipments outside the country in 2014 are expected to surpass 100 million tons for the third year, a record string. A high level of exports helps keep the domestic supply in line with demand and helps prevent U.S. prices from tanking.

Last month, Bristol, Va.-based Alpha opened a London office in response to demand from Europe, which is weaning itself from nuclear power and installing more pollution-control mechanisms on power plants. In 2013, the top foreign buyer of American coal was the U.K.

Thirty percent of the 28.5 million tons Consol produced last year was exported, three times the amount a decade ago. Last year's levels, while high, were below 2012's. Total exports from the terminal fell 20% in 2013 from year-earlier levels.

"There are two billion people in Asia who need more power, so eventually more U.S. coal will get onto global markets," says Matt Preston, an analyst with Wood Mackenzie.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 9:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BillBab @ Jun. 04 2014, 7:57 pm)
QUOTE
Here is wacky thought

Work with "big coal" to wind down pollution, etc

Crazy...Right?

Scrubbers would be great, but a true cost-benefit (accounting for environmental and health effects) suggests building non-coal plants would be better.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 9:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The Clean Air Act which directed the control of 188 air toxic materials included the nerve poison Mercury. That was 1970.

Today, 44 years later, there are NO* rules regulating coal fired power plant's Mercury poison production.

I'm thinking maybe it's past time.


* The EPA website says they did so in 2005. That's a misleading lie. The wrote a rule in 2005 that was such B. S. that they were sued by some states and the courts upheld the states. So they started again in 2011 and haven't produced anything that is actually functioning yet. Meanwhile coal fired power plants around the nation damage the brains of our children daily.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 04 2014, 9:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Bass @ Jun. 04 2014, 5:13 pm)
QUOTE
Hungry Jack
QUOTE
No offense to coal miners and coal states


Coal miners and coal states aren't exactly sitting still while the US burns less coal. There seems to be a slump for now, but coal mining companies are developing new markets in countries that need the imported coal in order to produce their electrical power. Excerpts from The New Future for American Coal: Export It :

As environmental restrictions and abundant natural gas reduce coal consumption at home, exports have become more important for U.S. mining companies. U.S. coal shipments outside the country in 2014 are expected to surpass 100 million tons for the third year, a record string. A high level of exports helps keep the domestic supply in line with demand and helps prevent U.S. prices from tanking.

Last month, Bristol, Va.-based Alpha opened a London office in response to demand from Europe, which is weaning itself from nuclear power and installing more pollution-control mechanisms on power plants. In 2013, the top foreign buyer of American coal was the U.K.

Thirty percent of the 28.5 million tons Consol produced last year was exported, three times the amount a decade ago. Last year's levels, while high, were below 2012's. Total exports from the terminal fell 20% in 2013 from year-earlier levels.

"There are two billion people in Asia who need more power, so eventually more U.S. coal will get onto global markets," says Matt Preston, an analyst with Wood Mackenzie.

Reminds me of when the Republicans were screaming about the high cost of gas, our reliance on those 'foreign country's' (ie Arab/ Muslim) and promoting the whole drill baby drill thing.

Then someone noticed we were actually exporting oil to other country's and wanted to know why the costs haven't come down at home and why we were still buying from, you know, those people.

Silence................


--------------
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 05 2014, 4:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The fossil fuel industry makes the mafia look like a humanitarian cause. We have given them 40 years to do a better job and all we get from them is propaganda. The number of jobs attributed to fossil fuels are hugely inflated. Building another pipeline, is only a short term spike in employment, because they don't spend squat to maintain existing pipelines. When you look at the capitol investment in a refinery or a strip mine, the slice of the pie that goes to labor is almost insignificant. We have a society addicted to carbon, and like most addicts, you can't trust them to be objective about the problem.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 05 2014, 1:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

We didn't all forget about the Freedom Industry chemical spill that has left hundreds of thousands without safe drinking water, did we? It was only a few months ago.
It's not just the coal, but all the other associated risks. Why did this one spill effect numerous counties? They'd mucked up all their other water sources, this was the one source left.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-wa....0000009


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 05 2014, 1:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

In my state the race for the U.S. Senate is boiling down to pretty much one issue. -  continue to mine coal (we have the largest  coal reserves in the nation, if not the world, as well as several of the largest coal fired power plants) or gradually wean ourselves off it.  Unfortunately, neither Dem or Rep candidate has the guts to chart a new course and offend the sacred creed and worship of cheap energy and jobs regardless of the cost environmentally.

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