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Topic: Iraq, What to do now?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 2:10 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Total catastrophe.  I see no reasonable U.S. options.

I cannot believe that Vietnam, even tho not an exact parallel, taught us so little.  I am deeply sorry for all who suffered and sacrificed in this debacle.   

Reminded again why Dick Cheney was probably the worst President we've ever had.   

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/iraq-cr....0FQwWGe


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 2:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Iraq, What to do now?"

Underlying premise is incorrect.

Oh and Boehner has to review just what President Obama is President OF.

Hint, it ain't Iraq. And The IRAQ leader is reaping what he sowed:
"But attention is now focused on the prime minister, who has been accused of centralising power within his own circle and disenfranchising Sunnis out of political power. His increased authoritarian rule has fueled the Sunni insurgency, according to experts."

Much like the Afghani leadership will and the Ukraine leadership is getting bit by.

That ever so delightful and endlessly repeated "it's OUR turn" cycle of tragedy. From Norhtern Ireland onward....
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 2:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A lot of us still seem to think it easy to start wars and then walk away from them at our choosing.  And so they are more prone to start wars and make other people's business their own.  Too bad more people don't study history.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 2:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Actually the people that started the most recent ones didn't want to walk away: they wanted a commitment and presence out forever.

Just the sovereign nations at issue didn't agree.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 3:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jun. 12 2014, 11:47 am)
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Actually the people that started the most recent ones didn't want to walk away: they wanted a commitment and presence out forever.

Just the sovereign nations at issue didn't agree.

Agree, HSF.  What better way for the defense industry to drum up more business than to find ways for the nation to keep using its stockpile?

But my point is that even for those who really want to walk away -- it is no easy task -- even with a different president and administration and all that.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 3:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I see Ben's repeated rants about U.S. foreign involvement, but, however much I agree with them, I'd observe that lobbing ordnance is not the only way in which Western forces have committed violence against other people. I understand that Ben's motivation is, perhaps, at least from his perspective, one of never doing violence to others - or so it would seem from his posts here.

However, I would also count the cultural, political, commercial and religious imposition of our systems and our values on others as "violence". But that's just IMHO. Believe it or not, a great deal of destruction as it relates to humans occurs outside the physical and material, and inside the confines of culture and thought. The destruction of the physical is just more obviously violent. (And it plays well on TV, now, doesn't it?)

In short, and more to the point: Western religious movements have been massively destructive of other cultures, their traditions and their values. It may not play as spectacularly on TV news, but it is a fact. "They" are barbarians, right? We know their culture is backward - they couldn't possibly want what the insurgents offer... (Relates heavily to the same domestic trope, from virtually the same sources that "gays couldn't possibly want to be gay, could they?" or "folk who engage in sexual activity outside of marriage have loose morals" or "abortion is murder"...presumably because I believe it is so - my religion says so.)
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 3:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What to do? Pull the rest of our troops out.  Let them fight this fight.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 4:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've been trying to get all our boys, and girls, home for years.  Bring 'em all home!

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 4:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Interesting Thinkprogress article and graph explaining the current conflict in Iraq & Syria and relationship between different groups



http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/06/12/3447800/iraq-syria-chart/


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 4:41 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 12 2014, 3:14 pm)
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I've been trying to get all our boys, and girls, home for years.  Bring 'em all home!

Including Bergdahl?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 4:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 12 2014, 12:09 pm)
QUOTE

(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jun. 12 2014, 11:47 am)
QUOTE
Actually the people that started the most recent ones didn't want to walk away: they wanted a commitment and presence out forever.

Just the sovereign nations at issue didn't agree.

Agree, HSF.  What better way for the defense industry to drum up more business than to find ways for the nation to keep using its stockpile?

But my point is that even for those who really want to walk away -- it is no easy task -- even with a different president and administration and all that.

Better hardware than "software" when it comes to that.

RE "walk away", totally agreed: looking at Bush and his clear desire to walk away from the MIdEast fur ball of a "peace process", with which I heartily agreed with him on or the guff Obama is getting over any number of places on his either fulfilling our commitment to walkway ala Iraq's agreement concluded during the previous administration or Afghanistan and that understanding. Domestic politics getting in the way of their considered judgement so often.
In cases such as Iraq it is complicated due to the fact we DID "break it", but that's overcome by the plain fact "we" can't fix other people's nations... and it's clear the "our turn" inclination is just enabled by our continued support, which cannot realistically be endless. Those fracture lines are very long-lasting: I'm reminded of the Balkan region the lid kept in place by Soviet domination for decades... then POP,
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 5:19 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Aw, hell.  Retreat to orbit and nuke them all.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 5:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jun. 12 2014, 1:59 pm)
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In cases such as Iraq it is complicated due to the fact we DID "break it", but that's overcome by the plain fact "we" can't fix other people's nations... and it's clear the "our turn" inclination is just enabled by our continued support, which cannot realistically be endless. Those fracture lines are very long-lasting: I'm reminded of the Balkan region the lid kept in place by Soviet domination for decades... then POP,

6,000+ years old Iraq was already complicated before Bush.  But he (and many other Americans) were too arrogant and ignorant to recognize / acknowledge.  And so we all pay the price.

But yes, I agree with you, the least worst option now is to walk away -- because we shouldn't have been there -- because we cannot succeed in molding their society to our liking.

Look at Ford's clean pullout of Vietnam.  Gut wrenching.  Humiliating.  10 more years of bloodshed within Vietnam (boat people and all).  But the Vietnamese have worked through much of their problems and are a fairly normal country today -- sewing our backpacks and all.  And ultimately, Ford has stemmed the flow (waste) of even more American blood.

Notice how even after the popping sounds of Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., etc. -- many of us still impulsively call for military intervention after seeing sob human stories in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya... Syria.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 5:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TDale @ Jun. 12 2014, 2:19 pm)
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Aw, hell.  Retreat to orbit and nuke them all.

We helped to bring about some of this, you know.   ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 6:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, just add it too another Obama screw-up...........

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 6:46 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:24 pm)
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And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

Are you saying "push the buttons" of nuclear annihilation is any less stupid now in Iraq than when you suggested it as a course of action for Russia's annexation of the Crimea?

It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea......... but given your statement that Iraq is Obama's screw-up, maybe that's not so hard to believe.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 6:59 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 6:46 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:24 pm)
QUOTE
And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

Are you saying "push the buttons" of nuclear annihilation is any less stupid now in Iraq than when you suggested it as a course of action for Russia's annexation of the Crimea?

It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea......... but given your statement that Iraq is Obama's screw-up, maybe that's not so hard to believe.

Drifty..............here we go again, read what I say, not what you want it to say. Could it be termites Woody?


But, since you brought up nukes.........it only took 2, too stop Japan.
But since, the area is bigger than Japan, it might take more, but even 1 would get their attention. And, the place to drop it.....just get a map of the middle east, close your eyes and point, that place.

Remember though, you brought up nukes....................and I must say, not a bad idea.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 7:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 3:46 pm)
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It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea.........

Drifty - Allow me to re-introduce our friend, JimmyC:



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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 7:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 6:46 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:24 pm)
QUOTE
And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

Are you saying "push the buttons" of nuclear annihilation is any less stupid now in Iraq than when you suggested it as a course of action for Russia's annexation of the Crimea?

It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea......... but given your statement that Iraq is Obama's screw-up, maybe that's not so hard to believe.

Drifty..............here we go again, read what I say, not what you want it to say. Could it be termites Woody?


But, since you brought up nukes.........it only took 2, too stop Japan.
But since, the area is bigger than Japan, it might take more, but even 1 would get their attention. And, the place to drop it.....just get a map of the middle east, close your eyes and point, that place.

Remember though, you brought up nukes....................and I must say, not a bad idea.

No Jimmy, it was you who brought up nukes.

Everyone on this board who is familiar with your use of the phrase "Push the buttons" knows you are referring to nuclear weapons.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 7:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 12 2014, 6:02 pm)
QUOTE
Drifty - Allow me to re-introduce our friend, JimmyC:

It would help if he identified himself as a troll.
Oh wait, never mind.  :O


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 8:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 7:08 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:59 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 6:46 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:24 pm)
QUOTE
And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

Are you saying "push the buttons" of nuclear annihilation is any less stupid now in Iraq than when you suggested it as a course of action for Russia's annexation of the Crimea?

It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea......... but given your statement that Iraq is Obama's screw-up, maybe that's not so hard to believe.

Drifty..............here we go again, read what I say, not what you want it to say. Could it be termites Woody?


But, since you brought up nukes.........it only took 2, too stop Japan.
But since, the area is bigger than Japan, it might take more, but even 1 would get their attention. And, the place to drop it.....just get a map of the middle east, close your eyes and point, that place.

Remember though, you brought up nukes....................and I must say, not a bad idea.

No Jimmy, it was you who brought up nukes.

Everyone on this board who is familiar with your use of the phrase "Push the buttons" knows you are referring to nuclear weapons.

They do Drifty............everyone thinks that, huh.
Don't they push a button on a drone to launch missile?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 12 2014, 8:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 12 2014, 7:02 pm)
QUOTE

(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 3:46 pm)
QUOTE
It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea.........

Drifty - Allow me to re-introduce our friend, JimmyC:


Thanks Ben................................ :laugh:

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 9:09 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Looks like Iran is going to help Iraqi Shiites in this burgeoning regional civil war and, which will  cause some heads to spin,  combat the creation of a destabilizing state more threatening than Saddam ever was.  

".....Iran, of all places, has reportedly dispatched two units of its elite Revolutionary Guards to Iraq to help stem the tide of terrorist gains and defend Baghdad from assault.

The two nations were bitter rivals for decades when Saddam Hussein's Sunni dominated regime was at war with Tehran's Shiite-led government. After the U.S. invasion, the Iraqi government came to be dominated by Shiite leaders, who now finds themselves under assault from the Sunni militants of ISIS. Now Iran sees Baghdad as a strategic partner, and the ISIS militias as unacceptable neighbors......."


http://news.yahoo.com/iraq-gets-international-help-iran-032015782.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 9:19 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Maybe I'll watch Lawrence of Arabia again.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 9:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Way better than most of the current movies!

And, it communicates quite clearly why Middle East countries and people are so negative about the West and our "help" with their problems in self government when our real goal is to control and dominate their decisions and struggles toward true independence.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jun. 12 2014, 4:46 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 5:24 pm)
QUOTE
And Y'ALL thought I was stupid with the Push The Buttons thing................now what do we do?

Are you saying "push the buttons" of nuclear annihilation is any less stupid now in Iraq than when you suggested it as a course of action for Russia's annexation of the Crimea?

It's hard to believe anyone is stupid enough to seriously think that's a good idea......... but given your statement that Iraq is Obama's screw-up, maybe that's not so hard to believe.

Drifty, I shouldn't have to point out that Jimmy says "push the button" in order to "push your buttons."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 10:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Iran was a Mideast democracy back in the early 1950's, and they sought to cast off Western dominance by nationailizing their country's oil resources. This didn't sit well with Britain which developed and profited from Iranian oil, so the former colonial power put an economic squeeze on Iran ... which pushed them into doing business with the Soviets. That was enough to convince Eisenhower to support a coup that replaced the democratically elected government of Iran with the repressive regime of the Shah.

A quarter century later the Iranian people rose up and overthrew their oppressors in the Islamic revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeni -- an unintended consequence of the injustice we had inflicted on the country.

After our guy the Shah was deposed we threw our support behind Iran's nemesis -- the brutal disctor of Iraq, Saddam Hussein. We provided miliary intelligence and materials for the WMD he used against Iran in that bloody 8 year war of Agression.

Saddam then went off the reservation in his attempt to annex tiny neighbor Kuwait, which had been slant-drilling into Iraqi oil fields. Operation Desert Storm crushed Saddam's army but didn't vanquish him, and our exit strategy was not complete. 12 years of sanctions and no-fly zones did more to increase the mortality of Iraqi children than to depose Saddam, and our "temporary" Desert Storm bases in Saudi Arabia became permanent fixtures in the holy land of Mecca -- providing the anti-American jihadists with fuel for their fire.

Then 9/11 happened, and the necons in the Bush administration saw this as the "new Pearl Harbor" they needed to launch their Project for the New American Century. Although Iraq had nothing to do with the attack GW Bush deceitfully conflated the two and warned of "mushroom clouds" from Iraqi nukes with bogus claims and fabricated evidence.

The decision to invade was not based on the intel; it was the other way around -- the intel was cooked for the recipe of a PNAC agenda in which regime change in Iraq would be the first step in what the necons saw as a historical opportunity to change the world utilizing the unchallengable military superiority of the sole superpower after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

But they engaged in groupthink, shut own all dissenting expertise, and turned their Project into an extremely costly blunder that opened the door in Iraq to the Islamic militants Saddam had held at bay.

More unintended consequences.

Will the Powers That Be behind closed doors in Washington ever learn ... or is perpetual war what they've always had in mind?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 12:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Jun. 12 2014, 4:22 pm)
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Well, just add it too another Obama screw-up...........

Not really as the invasion was 2003.  It was part of that neo-con push to spread democracy but they did not figure in the sectarianism of Muslims.  They will not vote for another sect and left to their devices, engage in blood lust against rival sects.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 13 2014, 12:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Drift Woody @ Jun. 13 2014, 10:42 am)
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Will the Powers That Be behind closed doors in Washington ever learn ... or is perpetual war what they've always had in mind?

This isn't anything we haven't known about, since at least the 1930's. Even Reader's Digest ran the works of General Smedley Butler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket


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If I wanted to live in a dictatorship I would have picked a place with shorter winters.
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