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Topic: Senate Blocks Elizabeth Warren's, Student Loan Refinancing Proposal< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 1:28 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) can't catch a break. Senate Republicans voted Wednesday morning to block her latest
piece of liberal reform. The Senate voted 56-38 in favor of Warren's bill to help ease the burden of student loan debt.
Despite a majority of senators approving the measure, it failed to reach the 60 votes needed to overcome Republicans'
filibuster of the measure.


http://www.motherjones.com/politic....t-loans

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs....ow-what

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014....62.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 1:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Doesn't the demorats control the senate?
And why does SHE in particular, need to catch a break?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Jimmyc


Did you not see the part where it said?

The Senate voted 56-38 in favor of Warren's bill to help ease the burden of student loan debt.
Despite a majority of senators approving the measure, it failed to reach the 60 votes needed to overcome Republicans'
filibuster of the measure.


Do you know what a filibuster is Jimmy?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 4:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I think most of us will agree that students (and parents) need help, given the decades-long, college tuition inflation.

But I think the usual Democrat focus on "throwing more government money / subsidies at the problem" is a good "stop gap" -- but ultimately the wrong answer.

Problem is, we have been using this financial aid / stop gap measure for many decades now, without addressing the fundamental causes!  And there is no Democrat (or Republican) leadership here.

When the government provides lower-than-market rates, there is inevitably a cost.  And when some of the students fail to repay loans when in adulthood, there are more costs.

I suggest Democrats (and everyone else too) take a good hard look at treating the cause and not just throwing more money masking the symptoms (i.e. sky high tuition).

One big part of the problem is faculty tenure.  Imagine the Democrat outcry if enterprise CEO's and other officers get tenure!!  But nary a peep about professors enjoying tenure?

Obviously, the problems are both wider and deeper than a forum post can adequately elaborate.  But I think both parties have consistently failed.

The Republicans are right to put a firm footing down against more government subsidies -- but they are absolute failures at addressing the causes.  It's been decades now!!

The Democrats are right to put forth stop gap measures but have absolutely failed at addressing the causes as well.  It's just too easy to keep writing checks and kicking the can down the road...  great PR and great vote getter... but solves the problem not at all.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 4:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Faculty tenure is not the problem. Administrative bloat is the problem. Universities are adding very few tenure-track lines, and professors' salaries over the last 4 decades have kept pace with inflation, not vastly exceeded it the way tuition has.

Student loans shouldn't necessarily cost the government money, but they shouldn't be making money, either. Current fed loan rates are *above* market value interest rates.

You are right that people need to address the root issues. I think you're wrong about what those issues are, though: administrative bloat, and too-widely available loan money has just fueled the demand side of the supply/demand equation.

One thing that would help a lot is for there to be more viable non-college options like trade schools, where people can learn a trade that will provide them a steady middle-class living.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 4:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I am pretty convinced that faculty tenure is a problem -- in many more ways than one.  Of course, stating the obvious, it is not the only problem causing tuition increases to outpace general inflation practically every year for the last 40 years!!

But we are in agreement that admin bloat is another factor.  Sadly, employment bloat is not something that Democrats have ever been anxious to solve.

And we are definitely in agreement that our entire society has placed way too much emphasis on colleges -- versus trade schools and other learning/training avenues.

What burns me is that neither party has offered solutions.  Not sure what the problem is with Republicans (big disappointment).  But the usual Democrat solution is 'more bread and circus' for the masses.  Works OK for the short term.  Works great for the party itself.  Works not at all in the long run -- just pouring more financing into an ever deepening hole!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jun. 14 2014, 1:42 pm)
QUOTE
Current fed loan rates are *above* market value interest rates.

Doubtful.  Else, borrowers would have flocked to banks and other private lending institutions instead.  Student borrowers tend to be higher risk due to higher nonpayment.  And when that happens, it's the government that's left holding the bag.

But even more critical than the issue of subsidy is the fact that the Democrats are simply telling the government to throw more into the 'drain' -- when what's really needed is to plug that drain somehow.  But we need a 'stop gap' measure to help families out, right?  Sadly, I believe we've been stop gapping for 40+ years now!!  Which goes back to my statement about "more bread and circus".  It's been a great way for Democrats to generate votes -- and so they keep doing it.  Quite irresponsible, actually (although not giving the GOP a pass either -- for different reasons).


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 14 2014, 5:06 pm)
QUOTE

(cweston @ Jun. 14 2014, 1:42 pm)
QUOTE
Current fed loan rates are *above* market value interest rates.

Doubtful.  Else, borrowers would have flocked to banks and other private lending institutions instead.  Student borrowers tend to be higher risk due to higher nonpayment.  And when that happens, it's the government that's left holding the bag.

But even more critical than the issue of subsidy is the fact that the Democrats are simply telling the government to throw more into the 'drain' -- when what's really needed is to plug that drain somehow.  But we need a 'stop gap' measure to help families out, right?  Sadly, I believe we've been stop gapping for 40+ years now!!  Which goes back to my statement about "more bread and circus".  It's been a great way for Democrats to generate votes -- and so they keep doing it.  Quite irresponsible, actually (although not giving the GOP a pass either -- for different reasons).

It's an investment Ben, just like the interstate highway system. The most likely reason that I can think of for the higher interest rates are because of the credit history of the students. Banks won't touch them without a cosigner.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 14 2014, 3:56 pm)
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I am pretty convinced that faculty tenure is a problem -- in many more ways than one.  

How so? How is tenure driving out-of-control tuition increases?

Tenure, BTW, not at universities nor in the public schools, does not mean that a professor cannot be fired. I know for a fact that a professor in my college at my university was removed this past year for "chronic low achievement." And, more commonly, the threat of chronic low achievement proceedings is used to leverage underachieving professors into resigning or retiring.

It's about due process, making it harder for faculty to be fired capriciously.

The model is that, you take a bunch of type-A high achievers, and make them work their a$ses off for 6 years to get tenure. In the vast majority of cases, they keep working their a$ses off after tenure. The system is not perfect, of course, but I don't see how it is the problem. Tuition is increasing astronomically faster than faculty salaries are. How, then, are professors the problem?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cgaphiker @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:16 pm)
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It's an investment Ben, just like the interstate highway system. The most likely reason that I can think of for the higher interest rates are because of the credit history of the students. Banks won't touch them without a cosigner.

I agree it's an investment.  But what are the causes for students needing ever higher loans,  ever more desperately?

Imagine a scenario where the mafia controls more and more of the concrete, etc. that goes into our highways -- basically holding our nation hostage by demanding ever higher prices -- and instead of  solving that problem head on, we simply follow the Democrat lead and throw in more government money and programs!!

Not saying our colleges are controlled by the mafia -- but illustrating that we have serious supply-side problems that have kept the cost of production (college grads) sky high and going ever higher!


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:18 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jun. 14 2014, 3:56 pm)
QUOTE
I am pretty convinced that faculty tenure is a problem -- in many more ways than one.  

How so? How is tenure driving out-of-control tuition increases?

Tenure, BTW, not at universities nor in the public schools, does not mean that a professor cannot be fired. I know for a fact that a professor in my college at my university was removed this past year for "chronic low achievement." And, more commonly, the threat of chronic low achievement proceedings is used to leverage underachieving professors into resigning or retiring.

It's about due process, making it harder for faculty to be fired capriciously.

The model is that, you take a bunch of type-A high achievers, and make them work their a$ses off for 6 years to get tenure. In the vast majority of cases, they keep working their a$ses off after tenure. The system is not perfect, of course, but I don't see how it is the problem. Tuition is increasing astronomically faster than faculty salaries are. How, then, are professors the problem?

I've been doing some research (e.g. fancy googling).  College costs have been skyrocketing... and the biggest chunk is in admin. -- not faculty.  I stand corrected.

But the above is a mis-ordering of the supply side problems -- which changes nothing about my contention that throwing money and subsidies (as we have been for decades now) does NOT solve the problem of high college tuition at all.

So yes, I stand corrected, but I think your argument is tangential to my original post against the usual, myopic, tired but really self serving Democrat "solutions".

And having identified better the problem of admin costs... do you see a history of the Democratic Party championing against employment bloat?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:40 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jun. 14 2014, 5:21 pm)
QUOTE

(cgaphiker @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:16 pm)
QUOTE
It's an investment Ben, just like the interstate highway system. The most likely reason that I can think of for the higher interest rates are because of the credit history of the students. Banks won't touch them without a cosigner.

I agree it's an investment.  But what are the causes for students needing ever higher loans,  ever more desperately?

Imagine a scenario where the mafia controls more and more of the concrete, etc. that goes into our highways -- basically holding our nation hostage by demanding ever higher prices -- and instead of  solving that problem head on, we simply follow the Democrat lead and throw in more government money and programs!!

Not saying our colleges are controlled by the mafia -- but illustrating that we have serious supply-side problems that have kept the cost of production (college grads) sky high and going ever higher!

It looks like you looked around and answered your own questions.
I do agree that more emphasis needs to be put on the trades. There's nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty.
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(Ben2World @ Jun. 14 2014, 4:30 pm)
QUOTE
So yes, I stand corrected...

A phrase that should surely be seen much more frequently on TPA. Appreciated.

QUOTE
And having identified better the problem of admin costs... do you see a history of the Democratic Party championing against employment bloat?


No, of course not. Nor Republicans. No one seems to be addressing the root causes of the issue at all. Colleges/universities are charging what the (student loan skewed) market will bear--so part of the issue for Republicans is that addressing it would require admitting that their darling, the "invisible hand of the market" is not only not the solution, but a big part of the problem in this case. So both parties are essentially on the sidelines when it comes to anything other than stopgap policies.
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(cgaphiker @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:40 pm)
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It looks like you looked around and answered your own questions.

Not sure what you mean... but my answer is simply that the usual way of throwing more money, programs and subsidies is not the right way forward.  And we've been doing that for far too long -- and I place blame on both parties for their lack of leadership and solutions -- and on our collective selves for our acquiescence -- such as this thread complaining that our politicians aren't throwing even more 'bread and circus' our way.


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Why do students need help?  Is it because many of them make terrible life/educational decisions?  So the rest of us should pick up the tab for that?  "Reform" is NOT free.

Government subsidized student loans, as the program exists, is a tremendous deal. Maybe too good of a deal.  Maybe if it weren't so easy to get cheap loans, more students would show prudence in their finances.

When I finished school I had $50K in student loans.  I continued to finance much of  my cost of living on credit cars until I had a regular full time job 9 months after graduating.  In less than 10 years everything was paid off with plenty spare.  I have never had a job other than government.

Many of my colleagues had three times the student loans as me because they insisted on going to their private dream school, took no measure to reduce expenses when in school, and had saved no money ahead of time.  Some started popping out kids long before obtaining a degree or a job.  And once they graduated they deferred payments as long as possible and then only paid the minimum once they were forced to start payments.  No sympathy from me and I don't feel I should be forced to further subsidize their poor decisions.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:56 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Furthermore, to the extent there is relief on interest rates, schools will just raise the price to erase the savings.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 5:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(cweston @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:49 pm)
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So both parties are essentially on the sidelines when it comes to anything other than stopgap policies.

Sad, and correct.

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(Dennis The Menace @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:17 pm)
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Jimmyc


Did you not see the part where it said?

The Senate voted 56-38 in favor of Warren's bill to help ease the burden of student loan debt.
Despite a majority of senators approving the measure, it failed to reach the 60 votes needed to overcome Republicans'
filibuster of the measure.


Do you know what a filibuster is Jimmy?

Don't be stupid DTM.............ya get a buster and you fill it up.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 9:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(JimmyC @ Jun. 14 2014, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:17 pm)
QUOTE
Jimmyc


Did you not see the part where it said?

The Senate voted 56-38 in favor of Warren's bill to help ease the burden of student loan debt.
Despite a majority of senators approving the measure, it failed to reach the 60 votes needed to overcome Republicans'
filibuster of the measure.


Do you know what a filibuster is Jimmy?

Don't be stupid DTM.............ya get a buster and you fill it up.

Maybe next time don't ask stupid questions like "Doesn't the demorats control the senate?" when the OP addressed that direct questions

Meaning, Democrats don't have enough control to override a filibuster.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 9:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
QUOTE

When the government provides lower-than-market rates, there is inevitably a cost.  And when some of the students fail to
repay loans when in adulthood, there are more costs.


Currently student loads are above the rates given to banks and Warren's bill would have students pay the same
rates as the banks


Warren, a co-sponsor on Harkin and Reed’s proposal (which would extend the current interest rate of 3.4 percent
for another two years), has her own piece of legislation knocking around the Senate: let students pay what the big
banks pay to the Federal Reserve, interest at 0.75 percent.


http://www.newrepublic.com/article....n-fight

What about the cost to our economy when students become so in debt?

Damn, the costs of education in this country has been going through the roof and just maybe the most
long term crushing factor in holding our economy back along with health care costs although we will see
how Obamacare addresses health care costs in the long run.

Here is a number of graphs from Mother jones showing just how crushing student debt and the cost of
education is and how much it has increased

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/student-loan-debt-charts

I'm unaware of any other country that as similar problem.


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(pass-thru @ Jun. 14 2014, 5:56 pm)
QUOTE
Furthermore, to the extent there is relief on interest rates, schools will just raise the price to erase the savings.

Then I take it you're not for vouchers either since the same argument would apply to private schools modifying their tuition costs to reflect vouchers?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 10:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sounds like op's whining because he can't get someone to pay their debt. Not surprising...

Couldn't agree with you more Ben2world. Ultimately, this chips away again at personal responsibility. Let government take care of their problems... they are the problem to begin with.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 10:26 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

You know what is mind boggling about people like scot? Is that the mindset of people like scot
is that its not possible to have policy decisions that have NOTHING to do with one's own personal situation.
In other words people like scot only understand government or any organization in terms of how it helps
them personally. People like scot can't understand that many people make policy decisions because they
think it makes the country and society better and/or more just. Obviously people like scot see things through a
selfish prism where the only thing that matters is what helps them personally(screw society)

Oh and Only an ignoramus would characterize the cost of education only in terms of "personal responsibility" given
how mind boggling out of wack educational costs are.

Oh and this is yet another mindless talking point/slogan
"Let government take care of their problems... they are the problem to begin with."

More inanity from scot


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 10:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

pass-thru said
QUOTE

Why do students need help?  Is it because many of them make terrible life/educational decisions?  So the rest of us
should pick up the tab for that?  "Reform" is NOT free.


This is a common argument among those who typically are hostile to government funding anything to help people.
What is a "terrible life/educational decision"? Someone who makes an educational decision that simply didn't
payoff? More on that later.

I see way more justification in using government to make educational affordable in comparison to say funding
needless wars or various wasteful pentagon projects that do nothing but help feed what Eisenhower called the
Military-industrial complex.

pass-thru said
QUOTE

Government subsidized student loans, as the program exists, is a tremendous deal. Maybe too good of a deal.  Maybe if it weren't so easy to get cheap loans, more students would show prudence in their finances.


Second, It just boggles my mind how you could possibly characterize student loans as "a tremendous deal. Maybe
too good of a deal." considering how much debt students are shouldering. For example how could anyone come to the
conclusion this is the case after looking at all these graphs here.  Its even an even more absurd comparison when you compare it to the way other countries finance their education. How many other countries have so many of their students in so much debt?

pass-thru said
QUOTE

When I finished school I had $50K in student loans.  I continued to finance much of  my cost of living on credit cars until
I had a regular full time job 9 months after graduating.  In less than 10 years everything was paid off with plenty spare.  
I have never had a job other than government.

Many of my colleagues had three times the student loans as me because they insisted on going to their private dream school,
took no measure to reduce expenses when in school, and had saved no money ahead of time.  Some started popping out kids long
before obtaining a degree or a job.  And once they graduated they deferred payments as long as possible and then only paid
the minimum once they were forced to start payments.  No sympathy from me and I don't feel I should be forced to further
subsidize their poor decisions.


Yes the inevitable use of unverified anecdotal examples.

Now lets discuss this specifically .
"No sympathy from me and I don't feel I should be forced to further subsidize their poor decisions."

First when have you ever had sympathy for government programs designed to help people? I not only don't remember
any such posts from you, but if my memory serves correct, you're usually fairly hostile to using government in
such ways.

Second about the phrase "poor decision".

Here are some examples from the following link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busines....ry.html


The Inghams of suburban Minneapolis are an example of how one family got into hot water. David Ingham,
a 70-year-old disabled Vietnam War veteran, co-signed about $50,000 in student loans for his son to attend
a fine-arts school in Minneapolis as well as Catholic University.

Ingham’s son held a couple of jobs after he left Catholic University, but he was laid off in October 2009
and has not found work since. When his son could not repay his loans, a Sallie Mae collection agency took
the family to court, seeking to place a lien on the Inghams’ condominium in suburban Edina.

“It’s a nice condo, and I worked my butt off for years to get this thing. Now we don’t know what the heck
is going to happen,” David Ingham said. “We’re in a free fall right now.”

While Ingham says he and his family are in a state of shock and depression, others are angry and defiant.


So I take the Inghams made a poor decision because it hasn't resulted in a payoff or that it was "bad decision"
because the education was from a "fine-arts school"?

Or how about this example

Stef Gray, a Hunter College graduate from New York who has paid $300 in forbearance fees to the company since May,
organized the petition drive in hopes of persuading Sallie Mae to drop the fee, just as Bank of America and other
financial institutions dropped unpopular fees in the face of Internet protests.

Gray, 23, who lives in Brooklyn, has become a symbol of the plight of young Americans saddled with debt. With both
her parents deceased, Gray has put herself through school with part-time jobs and three private loans with Sallie Mae.

Since graduating in May with a master’s degree in geographic information systems, Gray has been unable to find
full-time employment. Instead, she says, she has gotten by with temporary jobs and waitressing. Without a steady
income, she says, it has been impossible to make the $700 monthly payments on her $40,000 in loans. Nor has she
been able to consolidate the loans or negotiate more favorable terms with Sallie Mae.



So did Stef Gray make a poor decision? If so the proof she made a poor decision is that she hasn't found full
time employment and is having a hard time paying off her loans Or did she make a bad decision by obtaining a
master’s degree in geographic information systems because there should have been more than enough to show her
that was a degree that would NOT result in a payoff?

What I'm trying to figure out is what the criteria is for a "poor decision" as far as people like you are concerned
because I hear that a lot from those on the right("they made a "bad decision'").


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 10:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Tuition increases?

Lol. Welcome to the world of "small government" where post k through 12 schools have had to adapt to a world where their operational budget has more and more and more had to come from their students as state legislatures cut their portion of the funding. The collapse of tax bases from tax cuts and the Great Recession accelerating the trend started by Reagan in California where he saw higher education not as a public good but largely as a public expense for a private good. Dismissing the idea that an educated citizenry benefits the community overall.

To the point where there are superb institutions such as UC-San Francisco that have very seriously considered withdrawal from the state system, they see the state as not being nearly worth the hassle given what it contributes. The state of Virginia is a minor contributor to the University of Virginia, last I saw under 20% and that was in the 90's.

Eta: and in 2008 it had declined to 13.6%...

"Q: What percentage of University’s budget comes from state funds?

A: The state contribution to the University’s overall budget is 8.2 percent. If you pull the Medical Center out of the equation, the state contributes 13.6 percent to the annual academic budget."
http://news.virginia.edu/content....irginia
Thomas Jefferson would be appalled.

With it further dropping to under 10% for 2014-2015.
http://www.virginia.edu/budget/operatingbudget.html
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 14 2014, 11:13 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And then there is the Return On Investment:
"The report titled "The Big Payoff: Educational Attainment and Synthetic Estimates of Work-Life Earnings" (.pdf) reveals that over an adult's working life, high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million.

Persons with doctoral degrees earn an average of $3.4 million during their working life, while those with professional degrees do best at $4.4 million.

"At most ages, more education equates with higher earnings, and the payoff is most notable at the highest educational levels," said Jennifer Cheeseman Day, co-author of the report."


http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/edandearnings.htm

So. How much additional income tax would be collected off those college graduates? ...
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2014, 7:02 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

High_Sierra_Fan
QUOTE
"Q: What percentage of University’s budget comes from state funds?


Good posts!

So add the fact that governments are no longer contributing as much funding to universities to the other causes mentioned - administrative bloat, etc. Then add the fact that changes in the US economy society have made the "payoff" for having a college degree, the ROI, much greater. Then add the fact that the availability of student loans increases the number of potential students ( customers ).

These factors plus a few others mentioned have shifted the "demand/supply" curve to make it possible for suppliers of education to increase the cost. More students demanding more education means that educational institutions can charge more.

Throwing more money at the economic imbalance by making student loans cheaper ( thus increasing the number of students who demand education ) only shifts the demand/supply curve further - increasing costs even more. So maybe part of the solution is to increase the number of education providers in order to shift the curve back.

Or maybe governments should just return to picking up a bigger share of the cost. I think that most will agree that a better educated citizenry and work for is a good investment for the US. I feel that is what Elizabeth Warren is trying to do. By increasing the student loan subsidy, government is picking up a bigger share of the cost even though it is increasing costs even more.

I think that a more educated citizenry and work force is worth the investment. But I also think that government should be addressing the supply side by taking measure to increase the number of education providers - thus shifting the demand/supply cure toward lower costs.

The student loan subsidies can be increased very quickly and will result in more demand for education. The supply side, more education providers, will take a long time to increase. So is it worth it to educate more citizens now - at a greater cost? I think so. But I would worry that the supply side, more education providers, would never get increased because of the crony capitalism that exists between education providers and government. I think that needs to be addressed too.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2014, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

A couple thoughts in response to Bass's post:

1. I think viewing loans as the primary way for government to support education is a big part of the problem, for the reasons you outline: it inflates the demand side without addressing the supply side. Wouldn't direct subsidies to public universities (as we had in the past) be a better way to subsidies higher ed? Particularly, subsidies could be tied to tuition: state or fed gov says "we'll give you this subsidy, but at least 85% of it must be directly reflected in tuition reduction."

Yes, this only effect public universities, but it is a competitive marketplace: If the State U's tuition goes down considerably, then the private schools are going to have to set their tuitions at a competitive level. People will pay more for a prestigious private school, but only so much more.

2. Loans of any kind (other than student loans) are more widely available, and at more favorable terms, to borrowers who are a better risk. Maybe student loans should be like that, too? Maybe kids with high grades and test scores who have held a job as HS students should be able to get college loans more easily and at better interest/terms--they are, after all, a much safer risk to complete their degree and repay their loans and become productive members of society. This is the key: government supports education for the good of society, not just as a means of supporting individuals' upward mobility.

And this is really a slippery slope, but maybe this could even extent into social engineering. Need more STEM teachers? Give better financial aid/loans to students majoring in those education fields, and/or offer loan forgiveness to teachers who teach in challenged urban districts. Maybe accounting majors should get better loan terms than music majors? Etc.

That would be very controversial and very hard to implement, of course.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2014, 10:56 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jun. 14 2014, 9:16 pm)
QUOTE

(JimmyC @ Jun. 14 2014, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE

(Dennis The Menace @ Jun. 14 2014, 2:17 pm)
QUOTE
Jimmyc


Did you not see the part where it said?

The Senate voted 56-38 in favor of Warren's bill to help ease the burden of student loan debt.
Despite a majority of senators approving the measure, it failed to reach the 60 votes needed to overcome Republicans'
filibuster of the measure.


Do you know what a filibuster is Jimmy?

Don't be stupid DTM.............ya get a buster and you fill it up.

Maybe next time don't ask stupid questions like "Doesn't the demorats control the senate?" when the OP addressed that direct questions

Meaning, Democrats don't have enough control to override a filibuster.

Scheesh.......................

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 15 2014, 10:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Scot @ Jun. 14 2014, 10:09 pm)
QUOTE
Sounds like op's whining because he can't get someone to pay their debt. Not surprising...

Couldn't agree with you more Ben2world. Ultimately, this chips away again at personal responsibility. Let government take care of their problems... they are the problem to begin with.

Can I get an Amen.....................!

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