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Topic: Kit Carson's Name is Offensive< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 18 2014, 11:05 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The list of offensive names is long.  Who is your favorite offensive historical person we must purge from parks, forests, monuments and elsewhere?  

Just the thought of Cowboys offends me.  

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cru....on-park
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Custer National Forest & Custer State Park (Geroge C. Custer)

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 19 2014, 9:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Andrew Jackson

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 19 2014, 9:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Nathan Bedford Forrest
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trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
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I hate Teddy Roosevelt for killing a Sasquatch.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 19 2014, 10:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Lord Baltimore.

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Bears, especially after one killed Ran D's father

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 19 2014, 5:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jun. 19 2014, 10:02 am)
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Agreed. That's absolutely unconscionable not to mention reprehensible.  Along the lines of Sheridan, WY only worse.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 24 2014, 3:42 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(george of the j @ Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am)
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Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George

What makes you say "Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 24 2014, 11:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jun. 24 2014, 3:42 am)
QUOTE

(george of the j @ Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George

What makes you say "Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area."

He oversaw the removal of the Navajos from AZ and northern NM into captivity at Bosque Redondo.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 24 2014, 1:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Anyone who would kill peach orchards in Arizona, Utah and New Mexico  deserves all the villification that can be heaped upon him, even without the attempt to kill an entire native culture.

He knew the Natives well, from his own family, and used it to kill them, their herds and tried to erase their culture, but failed in that sad attempt.  Ever spent any time at Canyon De Chelly??


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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 25 2014, 4:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Jun. 24 2014, 11:46 am)
QUOTE

(KenV @ Jun. 24 2014, 3:42 am)
QUOTE

(george of the j @ Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George

What makes you say "Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area."

He oversaw the removal of the Navajos from AZ and northern NM into captivity at Bosque Redondo.

"Oversaw the removal"?  Not really.  He was certainly heavily involved in their surrender.   But by the time they were actually moved in the "Long Walk", Carson was no longer even in the Army.    Carson actually resigned from the Army in protest BEFORE the Navajo campaign, but his resignation was refused.  Carson was appalled by the whole affair and the attitudes that drove it, but since the alternative to the Navajo's removal was their extinction, he did what he could to save them.


"into Captivity"?  Not really.  They were herded onto a reservation but it was certainly not "captivity".

Lots of non-Navajo "native Americans" loved Carson and still honor his name.  Especially the Ute.  Even many Navajo loved Carson.  The Navajo enmity for Carson stems from many (but not nearly all) of them incorrectly attributing the ravages of the "Long Walk" to Carson, when he was not even in the Army any more.  Had Carson not been successful at getting the Navajo to surrender, Carson's Commanding Officer, BGen Carleton, would have wiped them out, and the entire Navajo nation would likely have suffered a fate at the hands of the likes of Chivington.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 25 2014, 4:40 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wwwest @ Jun. 24 2014, 1:54 pm)
QUOTE
Anyone who would kill peach orchards in Arizona, Utah and New Mexico  deserves all the villification that can be heaped upon him, even without the attempt to kill an entire native culture.

He knew the Natives well, from his own family, and used it to kill them, their herds and tried to erase their culture, but failed in that sad attempt.  Ever spent any time at Canyon De Chelly??

You're welcome to your characterization of Carson, but I insist that it is mostly false.  I believe he prevented the extinction of the Navajo at the hands of Carleton and Chivington, and I further believe he was attempting to preserve their culture as well as their lives.

Carson believed the Native Americans needed reservations as a way of physically separating and shielding them from white hostility and white culture. Carson believed most of the Indian troubles in the West were caused by "aggressions on the part of whites." He is said to have viewed the raids on white settlements as driven by desperation, "committed from absolute necessity when in a starving condition." Native American hunting grounds were disappearing as waves of white settlers filled the region  LINK
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 25 2014, 9:31 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Read "Blood and Thunder", by Hampton Sides.  Tour Canyon de Chelly if you get a chance.  Talk to the local Navajo people.  I sensed nothing but respect for Kit Carson.  

Taos politics makes Nancy Pelosi looks like Newt.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 26 2014, 2:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(KenV @ Jun. 24 2014, 3:42 am)
QUOTE

(george of the j @ Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George

What makes you say "Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area."

Well, not really near Carson City, NV, but kind of in the region. Kit Carson took part in the attack of an Indian village near Klamath Lake, OR  (Link, paragraphs 17,18, 19).

I think he was also involved in the 1846 Bloody Island massacre (Sacramento River, CA), but I don't have a link and can't find a good website with the details. IIRC several hundred Indians were killed--- men, women and children.

---George
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 26 2014, 2:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Yankees........................

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Trolls need love too...........
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 27 2014, 3:29 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(george of the j @ Jun. 26 2014, 2:31 pm)
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(KenV @ Jun. 24 2014, 3:42 am)
QUOTE

(george of the j @ Jun. 19 2014, 12:13 am)
QUOTE
Quite a bit named after Kit Carson in Northern Nevada: Carson City, the Carson Range, the Carson River, Carson Pass, and maybe more I can't recall off the top of my head. Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area.

---George

What makes you say "Carson was none too friendly with the Native Americans in this area."

Well, not really near Carson City, NV, but kind of in the region. Kit Carson took part in the attack of an Indian village near Klamath Lake, OR  (Link, paragraphs 17,18, 19).

I think he was also involved in the 1846 Bloody Island massacre (Sacramento River, CA), but I don't have a link and can't find a good website with the details. IIRC several hundred Indians were killed--- men, women and children.

---George

Those were his young mountain man days.  Carson was a very different man 20 years later after he had married native american women and raised children with them.  By that time, the Navajo had great  respect for him, as did the Utes.  Most Navajo today still respect him and he enjoys essentially universal respect among the Utes.  It's a small minority of Navajo that demonize Carson for what I believe are political reasons.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 28 2014, 4:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ken, I was mistaken when I wrote Carson participated in the Bloody Island massacre. It was the 1846 Sacramento River massacre I was thinking of. I've searched the web a little more and can't find a good account of the Sacramento River massacre---which Carson was part of--- but here is a link to a little about it: link It starts on page 111, if you're interested at all.

Carson was by no means the most ruthless of the white men who vanquished the Indians, but still he did what he did. Our opinions of him differ.

---George
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 28 2014, 11:12 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Washington Redskins:
This name would not be offensive if they removed the word "Washington" form the name.
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Born to hike, forced to work ...
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 28 2014, 5:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Naco1 @ Jun. 18 2014, 9:05 pm)
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Just the thought of Cowboys offends me.  

Think the name is bad, try watching them play.  That's real offensive (same could be said of Washington I guess).

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(george of the j @ Jun. 28 2014, 4:18 am)
QUOTE
Ken, I was mistaken when I wrote Carson participated in the Bloody Island massacre. It was the 1846 Sacramento River massacre I was thinking of. I've searched the web a little more and can't find a good account of the Sacramento River massacre---which Carson was part of--- but here is a link to a little about it: link It starts on page 111, if you're interested at all.

Carson was by no means the most ruthless of the white men who vanquished the Indians, but still he did what he did. Our opinions of him differ.

---George

I read your link.  I don't know if this was a "massacre".  It sounds to me like they attacked a force of 1000 Indians who had been raiding the local settlers, killed many and dispersed the rest.   And I can't find any reference anywhere to what you call the "Sacramento River Massacre."

There's no doubt he was involved in the deaths of a lot indians, especially early in is life.  But by the time of the Navajo campaign (which is after all what the OP is about) Carson was highly liked and respected by many different Native American tribes, including the Navajo, and he remains respected by the vast majority of them to this  day.
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(JimmyC @ Jun. 26 2014, 2:57 pm)
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Yankees........................

Once again Jimmy tries to make a point, but fails.  I'm sure there would have been plenty of southerners in the genocide ranks lined against Native Americans. Just take a look at Texas's treatment of them.  There's a reason there are no Indian reservations in Texas.  You will recall, I'm sure, that the southern army officers had recently lost a rather significant war a few years earlier.  They weren't exactly welcome  in the U.S. Army at the time.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 17 2014, 8:33 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Columbus. The original invader who started it all.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 17 2014, 9:07 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ugg, the first invader across the Bering land bridge.

Or Jules, the first invader from Solutrea.

Cause it's not like humans are from anywhere other than the Hadar in the Lower Awash River Valley eh?
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 17 2014, 9:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Taos town council met and decided to keep his name on part of the park.  It was mentioned that since Abe Linccoln has set the policy that led to Carson's following orders, that maybe Lincoln's name should be removed from all public property.
Town council was heavilty criticized for making the name change without public comment.
Also, local Taos Pueblo objected to the name change.
Another case of PC gone sideways.
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 17 2014, 7:07 am)
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Ugg, the first invader across the Bering land bridge.

How can one invade another people when there are no people there upon one's arrival?

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Aunt Jemima
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(Montanalonewolf @ Jul. 17 2014, 6:53 am)
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(High_Sierra_Fan @ Jul. 17 2014, 7:07 am)
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Ugg, the first invader across the Bering land bridge.

How can one invade another people when there are no people there upon one's arrival?

Invasion applies to entry not anything about people being somewhere.

People don't get "invaded" land areas do. And by more than humans as well: "invasive" plants and animals and insects cause a great deal of trouble.

Oh and Columbus was a latecomer: the Basque had been fishing the Grand Banks, and landing on North America long before that and the Norse had colonies centuries earlier as well. Then there are the Carthaginians.... depending on how much credence one gives to Bary Fells' America B.C.
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