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Topic: Americas Flowers in the Attic< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 10:19 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

With the insurgence of illegal children crossing the border now a flood, what should America do?

Discuss.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 10:37 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Since the problem was created by Obama's amnesty program, the obvious solution would be to eliminate it.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 10:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Make WalMart pay to send them all to Disneyland

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 10:54 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I'll actually go with Republican rep Steve Pearce's (his district is southern NM) suggestion that there be an enforced guest worker program if we can truly not find US agricultural farm hands.  Work the fields, go back home (safely) for the holidays.  Repeat.  What most don't realize is migrant workers cross a number of times to make it south for the holidays (starting with "Day of the Dead" right after our Halloween), ... but after a few dangerous crossings, they decide to just stay here bringing or starting families.  

For decades it's been "survival of the fittest" with a wink from both sides.  Concurrently enforce the border as well, ... then a small fence will do instead of a wall.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 11:00 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ignore it until the problem becomes too big to manage, then point fingers. It's the American way.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 11:38 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 01 2014, 10:37 am)
QUOTE
Since the problem was created by Obama's amnesty program, the obvious solution would be to eliminate it.

How do you figure that?

"Obama is deporting immigrants faster than Bush. Republicans don’t think that’s enough."

http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1171786

Its also my understanding that these new immigrants are largely from countries like El Salvador,
Guatemala and Honduras where violence levels are through the roof



Countries in what’s known as the isthmus, the region that stretches from Nicaragua to Guatemala, have the highest murder rates in the world, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Data from that office shows Honduras is home to the deadliest city in the world, San Pedro Sula, where 169 out of every 100,000 people are murdered. The murder rate in Guatemala is nearly as bad and getting worse. And while El Salvador has seen a slight decrease in murders, it is still ranked fifth globally, according to the latest figures available.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/country-lost-kids/

So avoiding the violence in their home country is probably far and away what is motivating these
recent immigrants to come to the US and no Obama is NOT responsible for that. Only the most partisan
hack would blame Obama for that.


Children are uniquely vulnerable to gang violence. The street gangs known as "maras" — M-18 and Mara Salvatrucha,
or MS-13 — target kids for forced recruitment, usually in their early teenage years, but sometimes as young as
kindergarten. They also forcibly recruit girls as "girlfriends," a euphemistic term for a non-consensual relationship
that involves rape by one or more gang members.

If children defy the gang's authority by refusing its demands, the punishment is harsh: rape, kidnapping, and murder
are common forms of retaliation.  Even attending school can be tremendously dangerous, because gangs often target
schools as recruitment sites and children may have to pass through different gangs' territories, or ride on
gang-controlled buses, during their daily commutes


http://www.vox.com/2014....-crisis

So would we refuse refuge for those trying to escape violence if they came from any other part of the world?

So if you want to understand what is motivating these recent immigrants look at the above. Obama is
NOT to blame for the above.  That is just absurd.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 12:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's what happens when people act on their feelings and not their intellect.

You want to control immigration, then those who cross illegally must be treated as lawbreakers.

Yah, it's always "gut wrenching" to break up families or send kids home.

But then, our media and our bleeding-heart liberals went on and on about how kids who arrived illegally and grew up here ought to stay...

Is it any surprise at all that kids are now flooding in?

And bleeding-heart liberals STILL want to enact amnesty before tightening the border?  That will just encourage millions more to flood in!!  The correct order is this:

1.  Build the damn fence - end to end.
2.  Tighten immigration rules.  SEVERELY PUNISH employers who hire illegals.
3.  AFTER we successfully manage the issue with illegals -- then we can talk about amnesty for the 12 or so million who are already in.

You see, we can't push back 12 million people -- that's just pure fantasy.  We need to give them amnesty and channel them into productive citizens --BUT without encouraging more illegals coming in.

Got it, you bleeding heart liberals?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 12:14 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 01 2014, 7:37 am)
QUOTE
Since the problem was created by Obama's amnesty program, the obvious solution would be to eliminate it.

Pop quiz sweety: Who was President in 2008 when the Special Immigrant Juveniles (SIJ) Status was expanded?
http://www.uscis.gov/green-c....-status

Or, for that matter when it was first enacted and signed into law in 1990?
http://www.cnn.com/2014....ex.html

If you answered BUSH you got them both right. Congratulations!

A Karl Rove bobblehead doll will be arriving shortly.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 12:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Put them all up for adoption.  I am sure all of those Right to Life folks will line up to take care of them.  

Seriously, feed, clothe, educate, and shelter them as best we can.  Make every effort to see that they become productive citizens.  

As for the border itself?  Either open it, or enforce employment laws against the employers.  Without jobs, there will be no immigrants.  Americans can pay the true cost of feeding themselves.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 1:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 12:07 pm)
QUOTE
It's what happens when people act on their feelings and not their intellect.

You want to control immigration, then those who cross illegally must be treated as lawbreakers.

Yah, it's always "gut wrenching" to break up families or send kids home.

But then, our media and our bleeding-heart liberals went on and on about how kids who arrived illegally and grew up here ought to stay...

Is it any surprise at all that kids are now flooding in?

And bleeding-heart liberals STILL want to enact amnesty before tightening the border?  That will just encourage millions more to flood in!!  The correct order is this:

1.  Build the damn fence - end to end.
2.  Tighten immigration rules.  SEVERELY PUNISH employers who hire illegals.
3.  AFTER we successfully manage the issue with illegals -- then we can talk about amnesty for the 12 or so million who are already in.

You see, we can't push back 12 million people -- that's just pure fantasy.  We need to give them amnesty and channel them into productive citizens --BUT without encouraging more illegals coming in.

Got it, you bleeding heart liberals?

I have to say your response was pretty emotional("Got it, you bleeding heart liberals?". Really Ben?) but when it comes to this particular case the matter.  This isn't the case of people so much coming here to find work or mooch of the system. This is to a large extent people escaping very high levels of violence (from an area that has the highest murder rate in the world).


Recent studies suggest that most of these unaccompanied children aren't economic migrants, as many Americans
might assume — they're fleeing from threats and violence in their home countries, where things have gotten
bad that many families believe that they have no choice but to send their children on the long, dangerous
journey north


http://www.vox.com/2014....-crisis

We usually give safe haven for people escaping political violence or just violence from the government so how is this different? BTW the violence could also be considered in the category of political/government


In both El Salvador and Honduras, there are numerous, credible reports that the police are responsible
for hundreds of "social cleansing" killings, including the murders of youths they suspect to be gang
members. The Salvadoran national police "specializ[es] in obstructing justice and guaranteeing impunity
for those with sufficient amounts of money," writes Hector Silva, a fellow at American University who
researches police corruption.

Guatemala's police (and military) were so thoroughly infiltrated by organized crime that in 2006 the
United Nations had to set up a special agency, the International Commission against Impunity in Guatemala
(which goes by its Spanish acronym, CICIG), to help fight the pervasive abuses committed by "clandestine
groups." CICIG has enjoyed some recent successes, but nearly three in four killings committed in Guatemala
still go unpunished.


http://www.vox.com/2014....-crisis

and this


The ultraviolent Mara Salvatrucha street gang, a k a MS-13 — whose 10,000 members sow murder and mayhem in

dozens of American cities — has been secretly backing El Salvador’s ruling party for several years, according
to evidence that has emerged in recent weeks.

President Mauricio Funes has admitted to personally approving payoffs, prostitutes and other privileges for
gang kingpins in exchange for their political support. If Funes’ FMLN party, which originated as a guerrilla
movement in the 1980s, wins the March 9 presidential election, El Salvador may become a haven for gangs and
narco-traffickers, with dire consequences for the United States


http://nypost.com/2014....alvador

So if we give refuge to those fleeing Cuba, China, Iran, etc.... Why is this really different? After all they are escaping the most violent region in the world, I certainly wouldn't think a catholic would be against providing such refuge. What would Jesus do in this situation? What do you think Pope would say?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 2:20 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 01 2014, 9:38 am)
QUOTE

(Lamebeaver @ Jul. 01 2014, 10:37 am)
QUOTE
Since the problem was created by Obama's amnesty program, the obvious solution would be to eliminate it.

How do you figure that?


"Cabrera says these crossings began to spike two years ago after the Obama administration announced it would stop deporting young illegal immigrants who entered the United States as children if they met certain requirements."

Source
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 3:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Requirements that none of these recent illegals will meet so they're pretty much all going back aside from some few that qualify under the aforementioned law.

"Under the new policy, people younger than 30 who came to the United States before the age of 16, pose no criminal or security threat, and were successful students or served in the military can get a two-year deferral from deportation, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said."
Someone just over the fence has been neither a successful student OR served in our military. Other than those that fit the Bush era laws: going back.

So the new Obama policy has zero to do with the current influx in reality. At least in relation to the facts.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 3:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 01 2014, 10:04 am)
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Really Ben?) but when it comes to this particular case the matter.  This isn't the case of people so much coming here to find work or mooch of the system. This is to a large extent people escaping very high levels of violence (from an area that has the highest murder rate in the world).

I spent 2 months traveling in Central America earlier this year.  Yes, it is true that they are fleeing dangerous and depressing homes -- pretty darn strong motivators.

BUT their choice to come HERE (and not Colombia) has everything to do with finding work and taking advantage of social systems not available at home (or in Colombia).  To pretend otherwise is again to turn off one's intellect.

Where I differ from 'diehard conservatives' is that you cannot push back 12 million souls who are already in -- and ignoring them will just form a permanent underclass with all the negative consequences.  There must be an amnesty!

Where I differ frm 'bleeding heart liberals' is that they must recognize that amnesty by itself will ONLY encourage even greater torrents of illegals!!  The border must first be secured and laws reformed -- before the necessary amnesty.

Wish both sides of the aisle -- and the president -- can just get to work!!  But alas, no... the usual self-serving politicians in Congress just get in the way...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 3:57 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Someone pointed out long ago on one of these threads that some South American countries had a huge issue with immigrants from Spain or maybe it was the other way around.

The point was 10,000 miles of ocean did not stop people...why will a wall?

And remember how successful the Berlin wall was?  They SHOT people trying to cross and people STILL did.

Are you advocating that level of prevention?  Because if the Soviet era East German government could not stop people I really doubt we will be able to.

Get rid of the JOBS issue, enforce the laws on EMPLOYERS that already exist. Simple and easy but economically difficult and THAT is the problem.

NPR had an interview with a guy living down there.  He explained that many of the kids come up because the coyotes who bring them have sold the parents on the idea the US will take care of them.  Many coyotes bring people back and forth and so they have a level of credibility the government in these areas lacks.  For the coyotes it is an economic process.  The more people they bring to the US the more they make.  So regardless of what our laws ACTUALLY are they will tell people what they need to in order to get clients!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(geophagous @ Jul. 01 2014, 12:57 pm)
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Get rid of the JOBS issue, enforce the laws on EMPLOYERS that already exist. Simple and easy but economically difficult and THAT is the problem.

For the coyotes it is an economic process.  The more people they bring to the US the more they make.  So regardless of what our laws ACTUALLY are they will tell people what they need to in order to get clients!

We are in agreement here, Geo!

Supply won't cease so long as there is a strong demand.  And the demand stems from our own American businesses -- as well as individuals (i.e. did we check to make sure our gardeners are legit or did we just go with the low cost ones?).

But imagine a tall (and managed) border fence.  And a consistent/strict enforcement policy!

It costs a lot of money to sneak in (coyotes make themselves mandatory and they don't come cheap).  When a village sees its adults and children pretty much all turned back (strict border plus no jobs) -- they will stop listening (and paying) those darn coyotes.

Of course, the ultimate answer is that Latin America needs to get its economic and social acts together.  Chile might be the only stellar exception here.  But that's a whole another topic...


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 2:10 pm)
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But imagine a tall (and managed) border fence.  And a consistent/strict enforcement policy!

"Show me a 50-foot wall, and I’ll show you a 51-foot ladder" - Janet Napolitano

The "big wall" approach is costly and ineffective, Ben.  It's a long danged border.  More boots on the ground would help, but I agree with geo.  The only thing that'll really stop it is economic policy changes, not a big "tight" wall that'd be anything but.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:33 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Explain again how effective the Berlin Wall was......

Are you prepared to shoot on sight every person who attempts to cross?  Even THAT did not stop people!!!!
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:37 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ben2World said
QUOTE

BUT their choice to come HERE (and not Colombia) has everything to do with finding work and taking advantage of social systems not available at home (or in Colombia).  To pretend otherwise is again to turn off one's intellect.


Colombia too is among the most violent nations on earth so it wouldn't make sense for someone,who hasn't turned off their intellect, to go to a country that also has a high murder rate . Also what should be obvious is that its one thing to want to better ones life economically but that is unlikely to really  motivate people moving across multiple countries in very dangerous to get to the US.

So you have also determined that people coming to the US seeking asylum, that we grant asylum, from other countries not in this region(Cuba or various countries in the mideast, Africa, etc..) doesn't have "everything to do with finding work and taking advantage of social systems not available at home"?  What? You think the only thing that motivated Cubans to come to America was their loss of freedom under Castro? You don't think that, in large part, what motivated them was a desire to seek a better economic life as well? But of course we didn't turn them away did we?

Ben2World said
QUOTE

Where I differ from 'diehard conservatives' is that you cannot push back 12 million souls who are already in -- and ignoring them will just form a permanent underclass with all the negative consequences.  There must be an amnesty!

Where I differ frm 'bleeding heart liberals' is that they must recognize that amnesty by itself will ONLY encourage even greater torrents of illegals!!  The border must first be secured and laws reformed -- before the necessary amnesty.

Wish both sides of the aisle -- and the president -- can just get to work!!  But alas, no... the usual self-serving politicians in Congress just get in the way...


As far as the broader question I don't have strong opinions on what should be done other than I think going after corporations who hire illegals is probably the best way to find illegals and that whatever is done, I want to have as much safeguards for poor Americans who could be displaced by low wage immigrants.  But again I thought the discussion was more narrow pertaining to those recent immigrants on the border, where they came from and why. On that note you never did answer the questions that if we give refuge to those fleeing  Cuba, China, Iran, etc.... Why is this really different? After all they are escaping the most violent region in the world, I certainly wouldn't think a catholic would be against providing such refuge.

What would Jesus do in this situation?

What do you think Pope would say?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Dennis -- you assume too much.

Truth be told, I actually don't support our various asylum programs as they seem overly broad.  The one pertaining to Cubans is especially idiotic.  Hey, you get asylum just because you are Cuban -- you just need to find your way to our shores.

I have been to Cuba.  It's a poor country, but quantum leaps better than Haiti (and many, many other 'fourth world' countries).  And if you don't go way out of your way to agitate against the state -- life goes on pretty uneventfully.

Finally, I didn't think you would take "Colombia" so literally or narrowly!  You make the assertion that the illegals aren't coming because of our superior job and care opportunities.  I use "Colombia" to question why illegals don't go 'the other direction' - and that would include all of South America as well?  Answer is, of course, our economic and social opportunities!

So if you want to knock our immigration/asylum policies -- you are preaching to the choir.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Of course the trouble is knowing ahead of time what are the correct words to say per the Special Immigrant Juveniles (SIJ) Status regulations, some sort of proof is required and that's where the system has gotten overwhelmed is in processing (and largely from what I understand, rejecting) the claims.

A long while ago in reference to Mexico it was offered that as long as the United States offered a "safety valve" for those dissatisfied with that country's corruption and political chaos (hence why just about every national Mexican politician demands the border NOT be closed off)  it would never change for the better. Something similar can probably be said for the Central American counties as well.

ETA: Oh and IMHO we don't need a "wall" (necessarily though some security arrangements to keep the enemies out would be prudent, I don't count economic migrants in that category), we need a national employment ID card.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 4:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jul. 01 2014, 1:15 pm)
QUOTE

(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 2:10 pm)
QUOTE
But imagine a tall (and managed) border fence.  And a consistent/strict enforcement policy!

"Show me a 50-foot wall, and I’ll show you a 51-foot ladder" - Janet Napolitano

The "big wall" approach is costly and ineffective, Ben.  It's a long danged border.  More boots on the ground would help, but I agree with geo.  The only thing that'll really stop it is economic policy changes, not a big "tight" wall that'd be anything but.

Goblue:

A wall -- and good wall management and patrol -- and reformed laws -- and strict/consistent enforcement -- all go hand in hand.  They must.

I made sure to emphasize all the above when I mentioned "wall".  So why are you singling out the wall and then attacking it as ineffective by itself - the 'big wall' approach?   ???


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:00 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Because I don't believe a wall will be effective at all.  Not one bit.

If the other policies aren't in place, people will still get around a wall.  If the other policies are in place and people are no longer compelled to cross the border illegally, the wall is an unnecessary waste of money.  Anyone who wants to get past a wall, will get past a wall.  We don't have the manpower or the money to "seal" our 1,989 mile US/Mexico border tight.

That's why I singled it out.  Because it makes no sense, with or without the other pieces you mentioned.

And my comments aren't an "attack", Ben.  It's a discussion.  Try not to get emotional.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jul. 01 2014, 4:15 pm)
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The "big wall" approach is costly and ineffective, Ben.  It's a long danged border.  More boots on the ground would help, but I agree with geo.  The only thing that'll really stop it is economic policy changes, not a big "tight" wall that'd be anything but.

Also should be pointed out that such a wall, in addition to being ineffective and questionable from a humanitarian standpoint, would be a biological disaster.  Impeding the migration of wildlife based on geopolitical boundaries is not okay.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jul. 01 2014, 2:00 pm)
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Because I don't believe a wall will be effective at all.  Not one bit.

If the other pieces aren't in place, people will still get around it.  If the other parts are in place and people are no longer compelled to cross the border illegally, the wall is an unnecessary waste of money.

That's why I singled it out.  Because it makes no sense, with or without the other pieces you mentioned.

We see differently.

To me, all the methods solve different pieces of the puzzle.  We will never have perfect laws.  We will never have perfect enforcement.  There will always be some people hiring illegals willing to work for a  lot less.

So... there will always be some incentives to sneak in.  We can spend a lot of money and deploy a lot of personnel and a lot of assets to patrol a long, essentially open border....  Or we can do all of the above and have the wall help reduce the number of people and assets we would otherwise need to deploy.  At the end of the day, I believe personnel cost is really the one to watch.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:09 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 3:04 pm)
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 Or we can do all of the above and have the wall help reduce the number of people and assets we would otherwise need to deploy.  At the end of the day, I believe personnel cost is really the one to watch.

You're right Ben, we do see differently.

I think you naively and dramatically overestimate the effectiveness of a 1,989-mile-long wall, underestimate its cost, and severly underestimate the amount of resources it'd take to "properly" maintain and enforce the border along a wall that long.

The Berlin wall, for comparison, was 87 miles long.  And as you were apparently unaware (before you edited your post to remove your comments), even that wasn't terribly effective.

The only way to solve the problem is from the demand side.  Proper enforcement of labor laws on businesses in this country is a good first step, but it's difficult to get a congressman or senator to go toe-to-toe with businesses in his Congressional districts that currently hire illegal immigrants.  The "anti-farmer" congressman in a rural district doesn't stay in office long.

ETA: And Trinity brings up a very valid point about biological consequences of such a "sealed" border.  It wouldn't be effective, cheap, maintainable or environmentally sound.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(GoBlueHiker @ Jul. 01 2014, 2:09 pm)
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(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 3:04 pm)
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 Or we can do all of the above and have the wall help reduce the number of people and assets we would otherwise need to deploy.  At the end of the day, I believe personnel cost is really the one to watch.

You're right Ben, we do see differently.

I think you naively and dramatically overestimate the effectiveness of a 1,989-mile-long wall, underestimate its cost, and severly underestimate the amount of resources it'd take to "properly" maintain and enforce the border along that wall.

The Berlin wall, for comparison, was 87 miles long.  And as you were apparently unaware (before you edited your post to remove your comments), even that wasn't terribly effective.

I didn't like the Berlin Wall analogy so I removed it.  But regardless, I don't see how you can say the Berlin Wall was "ineffective" -- if you consider the number of people wanting to go to West Berlin -- versus how many actually made it through.  And even more importantly, how few the attempts as time went on and folks realized the determination of the E. German guards to enforce the no crossing policy!

And if you think walls -- in conjunction with enforcement, etc. -- is so ineffective -- then you should read up on the current Jerusalem / West Bank walls in Israel.  Patrols had always been strict -- but Israel was severely plagued by bus bombings -- until the wall got erected.  Obviously, the wall itself didn't stop everyone and everything -- but it was one heck of an effective tool from the toolbox.

I think we all agree that building a wall and leaving it there would do absolutely nothing.  But I do believe that having a substantive barrier will make patrolling that much easier, cheaper, and more effective.


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 5:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 4:49 pm)
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Dennis -- you assume too much.

Truth be told, I actually don't support our various asylum programs as they seem overly broad.  The one pertaining to Cubans is especially idiotic.  Hey, you get asylum just because you are Cuban -- you just need to find your way to our shores.

I have been to Cuba.  It's a poor country, but quantum leaps better than Haiti (and many, many other 'fourth world' countries).  And if you don't go way out of your way to agitate against the state -- life goes on pretty uneventfully.

Finally, I didn't think you would take "Colombia" so literally or narrowly!  You make the assertion that the illegals aren't coming because of our superior job and care opportunities.  I use "Colombia" to question why illegals don't go 'the other direction' - and that would include all of South America as well?  Answer is, of course, our economic and social opportunities!

So if you want to knock our immigration/asylum policies -- you are preaching to the choir.

First about picking Colombia as an example. Ok maybe you want to pick another country that is closer like Costa Rica or Panama but guess what? Even though those two countries have lower lower murder rates than the countries in question(Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala) its still higher than the United States so therefore if you were in those countries and trying to find a country that had less violence the US would still be the better choice(I'm sure the anti gun control folks might want to chime in on that point).

As far as the general policy of asylum in this country I was trying to knock it or not knock it but just using as something to measure consistency.  So just so I'm clear, you don't support any of our asylum policies, most of our asylum policies or just some of our asylum policies?

What about the questions in regard to the way Jesus, the pope and the way Catholics might see this issue? You didn't answer those questions. Yes I know that just because someone belongs to a particular religion doesn't mean they will have views that are 100% consistent with the official positions of the religion they belong to but having said that you certainly do seem to have views that are consistent with the official Catholic positions on issues related to sex/procreation(or so it seems) but maybe not as much as it relates to issues related to "Am I my brothers keeper"?.  To the extent that is true what does that say?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 6:12 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 01 2014, 2:51 pm)
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First about picking Colombia as an example. Ok maybe you want to pick another country that is closer like Costa Rica or Panama but guess what? Even though those two countries have lower lower murder rates than the countries in question(Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala) its still higher than the United States so therefore if you were in those countries and trying to find a country that had less violence the US would still be the better choice(I'm sure the anti gun control folks might want to chime in on that point).

As far as the general policy of asylum in this country I was trying to knock it or not knock it but just using as something to measure consistency.  So just so I'm clear, you don't support any of our asylum policies, most of our asylum policies or just some of our asylum policies?

What about the questions in regard to the way Jesus, the pope and the way Catholics might see this issue? You didn't answer those questions. Yes I know that just because someone belongs to a particular religion doesn't mean they will have views that are 100% consistent with the official positions of the religion they belong to but having said that you certainly do seem to have views that are consistent with the official Catholic positions on issues related to sex/procreation(or so it seems) but maybe not as much as it relates to issues related to "Am I my brothers keeper"?.  To the extent that is true what does that say?

Are you just being obtuse, Dennis?  I have already explained to you that "Colombia" is my way of saying "the other direction".  I even mentioned South America.  What exactly is difficult for you to grasp?

You recognize the motivations of many Central Americans wanting to leave home.  But once motivated to leave, you fail to discern that there are reasons why these people generally go one direction and not the other.  Job opportunities and social benefits.

If you really want to insist opportunities and benefits don't figure into the equation, then you have completely failed to understand the immigration history of America!

As for what Jesus might do... my discernment would be two things:

1.  That we try to help each other out.
2.  That we obey our laws.

So I am all for helping out our neighbors to the south.  Not to go into details, but I make donations to poverty-fighting organizations such as OXFAM.  It's a tiny step, but if we all pitch in...

And I am all for reforming our laws to allow for appropriate immigration (I myself was a lawful immigrant) -- but we know that any sort of "bleeding heart" approach to throw open our borders would not be sustainable -- and will likely create a backlash -- to the benefit of no one.

As for asylum, I actually would prefer a case-by-case basis -- to provide a second chance to those who were truly, egregiously wronged.  Being born in a poor country does not qualify in my view.

And what are your views of our immigration approach and policy, Dennis?


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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 6:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Dennis The Menace @ Jul. 01 2014, 5:51 pm)
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What about the questions in regard to the way Jesus, the pope and the way Catholics might see this issue? You didn't answer those questions. Yes I know that just because someone belongs to a particular religion doesn't mean they will have views that are 100% consistent with the official positions of the religion they belong to but having said that you certainly do seem to have views that are consistent with the official Catholic positions on issues related to sex/procreation(or so it seems) but maybe not as much as it relates to issues related to "Am I my brothers keeper"?.  To the extent that is true what does that say?

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but here's a few things scripture has to say on the subject:  

Deuteronomy 10:19

"You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt".

Exodus 23:9

“You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt"

Ephesians 2:19
"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God...."

Colossians 3:11

"... there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and in all!"

Galatians 3:28

"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

Leviticus 19:10

"You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the Lord your God".  

Leviticus 19:33-34

“When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.  The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the laien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 01 2014, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Ben2World @ Jul. 01 2014, 6:12 pm)
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As for what Jesus might do... my discernment would be two things:

1.  That we try to help each other out.
2.  That we obey our laws.

Are you serious, Ben?  You do know that Jesus was executed as an enemy of the state, don't you?
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