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TrailTramper 
Group: Members
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 7:11 pm |
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Wow, I'm surprised at how hard it is to actually see a tent in person before buying.
First, I can't find the tent I want to buy within travel distance. I would be willing to travel pretty far, but as far as I know the tent I want to see isn't anywhere around. (Alps Mountaineering Hybrid CE 3).
Second, it appears that the vast majority of suppliers of this tent are nothing more than internet warehouses. You can't call them up and say, "Have you ever seen this tent set up and can you tell me about it?" Many of them don't even list phone numbers.
Plus I have no idea which of the 65 internet retailers that come up on a google shopping search are trustworthy.
Third, most manufacturers don't give you enough photos so you can really picture the tent, especially if it has a complicated shape. A front view doesn't give you a sense of the volume seen from the end. Walk-around videos would be so helpful.
So what what do people do? Do you just order sight unseen and send it back if you don't like it? I've been doing that for quite a while. It's a drag.
I would order a sleeping bag sight unseen. It's a simpler object and the specs can tell you most of what you need to know. A backpack is very risky, tents also.
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10797
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 7:21 pm |
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Personally, I would not buy any tent from a bargain supplier without seeing it in person. I might not have the same problems with high end suppliers, as long as their customer service was good. ALPS may make some OK low cost items, but I would want to put it in my hand before committing to it.
As for what I do, I live within an hour of several good stores, and if they do not carry what I am looking for, I order from a reputable place with a good return policy.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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| Post Number: 3
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toesnorth
Group: Members
Posts: 2500
Joined: Jan. 2007
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 7:23 pm |
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Living in the boondocks, I have accepted the fact of trial and return (when necessary). That is why I prefer to buy from internet stores with good return policies.
I also look for reviews everywhere I can and BGT, especially, does an excellent job with good pictures, etc.
Maybe someone here has the tent you're interested in and can send you a video, pics, etc.
I'd do it but I don't have that tent.
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"Failure is never as frightening as regret."
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| Post Number: 4
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Tigger
Woods Pouncer
Group: Members
Posts: 10512
Joined: Apr. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 7:36 pm |
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I search the reviews...and more reviews, both professional and personal reviews. I look at the pictures as closely as I can and ensure it's got the features I want. Then, I ask this forum in regards to their feelings on them...and then I wait until the tent hits the price I'm willing to pay and I've got the funds in my coffers at the same time. My last tent took me four years before the stars aligned.
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If I'm going to be lost, in the woods is where I want to be...
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JRinGeorgia
Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Jul. 2012
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 7:54 pm |
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I agree -- and also search the tent name on YouTube, you often can find multiple videos from users giving you their "inside scoop".
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- JRinGeorgia
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| Post Number: 7
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TrailTramper
Group: Members
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Oct. 12 2012, 11:49 pm |
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Ayuh, I've done all that. It's resulted in two keepers out of about six tents ordered this year. The hardest ones are the asymmetrical tents. A dome tent is easy to visualize. Some tents are different on all sides.
I have one more frustration: customer service people who really don't know much about their products beyond the specs listed at the website. They've never seen most of the products in person. They see their role as reciting the specs to you and preventing you from talking to someone who does know about the product, as if those product guys are too busy to talk to lowly customers. REI is pretty good about this---you can usually talk to a product specialist if you ask nicely. Other manufacturers are hard headed about it. I want to say to them, "Look, what do I need to do to know exactly what I'm buying, before I send you my money?" I would buy this Alps tent immediately if there were a video of it. Don't manufacturers realize they could increase their sales by having more photos, better photos, and videos? Wouldn't it be worth it to spend an hour making a video?
In fact we rely more on user reviews and user videos than on manufacturers for product information. That's odd. Imagine a car company saying, "Sorry, we don't have a photo of the front of the car. And we also don't have an actual car for you to inspect."
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obchristo
Group: Members
Posts: 1971
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 12:03 am |
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But would you pay full price in a store for one that had it set up?
Putting on my professional hat here as a Buyer for a brick and mortar outdoor specialty retailer here:
Myself and pretty much every other Buyer for a non-internet retailer won't touch Alps with a 10 foot pole. Why? Rampant internet discounting- even by Alps themselves with their "Scout Only" site.
Not gonna showcase for them. Can't afford it. Committing $$$ to inventory, square footage to display, training employees- can't do that and compete with some internet discounter that doesn't do that. Simple economics.
Taking my Professional hat off and returning to my beer...
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Knowledge is the one thing you can aways carry more of- and not increase pack weight!!!!
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treelinebackpacker
Group: Members
Posts: 414
Joined: Aug. 2011
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 8:33 am |
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If you need help visualizing the tent, look up the dimensions, and using masking tape, tape out the shape and size of the tent and the vestibule on the floor. Lay your sleeping pad/s in there and hang out for a bit. It really gives you a good idea about living space.
Otherwise, yeah like above, youtube is the place to go.
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| Post Number: 11
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obchristo
Group: Members
Posts: 1971
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 1:10 pm |
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(TrailTramper @ Oct. 13 2012, 5:24 am)
QUOTE
(obchristo @ Oct. 13 2012, 12:03 am)
QUOTE But would you pay full price in a store for one that had it set up? That's a moot question because the tent is nowhere to be seen in a store, and that's really the focus of my original post. Pricing and supporting local stores is a totally different question that has been discussed here at great length.
Just wanted to let you know why there is little support for the brand by retailers and the manufacturer. It's a low margin brand. It sells on price, not service. Decent quality, just no support.
Good luck,
Christo
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Knowledge is the one thing you can aways carry more of- and not increase pack weight!!!!
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
Group: Members
Posts: 10797
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 4:02 pm |
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obchristo has identified himself as a retailer rep for quite a while now, and makes a great effort to show us when he is "putting on his retailer hat" and when he is just posting as a backpacker.
My take on all of this is that if you are selling merchandise on the cheap, it may not be in your best interest to invest in advertising and pictures that make it easier for customers to recognize the flaws.
You are most correct in your assumption that just floor dimensions tell us little. Slope of the walls could infringe on the floor area, making several inches unusable.
This is a 3 person tent we are talking about. Is your intended use to be 3 people, or 2 with a dog, or just 2 people who like roomy palaces?
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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bigredd
Group: Members
Posts: 31
Joined: Sep. 2012
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 5:04 pm |
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I just bought a North Face Rock 32 tent and am very happy with it. If budget is a concern, I would rather buy a lower price model from a top brand company that provides good service and support after the sale.
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| Post Number: 17
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WBrim
Group: Members
Posts: 240
Joined: Feb. 2011
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Posted on: Oct. 13 2012, 6:05 pm |
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I think the same could be said of shoes and boots. Different sizes in the way they were constructed making them hard to shop for. Someone with my feet (narrow) makes it hard to find boots in a shop let alone order them online. Most shops don't even stock any narrow boots to even try on, so it's making do with what you can find and not what you want.
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TrailTramper
Group: Members
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Oct. 14 2012, 5:39 pm |
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Posted in wrong thread, sorry.
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justwalkin
Group: Members
Posts: 394
Joined: Nov. 2008
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Posted on: Oct. 14 2012, 8:51 pm |
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The next time you're in the NYC area stop by Campmor in Paramus NJ. You'll find a crapload of erected tents ready for your inspection.
If you live in the middle on nowhere as I do, just do your due diligence and research the hell out of the tent before you order it. I have yet to be disappointed using that method.
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If a day in the mountains is better than a week at work, why aren't I working in the mountains?
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| Post Number: 22
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obchristo
Group: Members
Posts: 1971
Joined: Nov. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2012, 12:07 am |
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(TrailTramper @ Oct. 13 2012, 12:45 pm)
QUOTE
(obchristo @ Oct. 13 2012, 1:10 pm)
QUOTE Just wanted to let you know why there is little support for the brand by retailers and the manufacturer. It's a low margin brand. It sells on price, not service. Decent quality, just no support.
Good luck,
Christo OK, that's fair, I get what you're saying about retailers. I'd like to know from others whether they share this opinion. But you're not explaining clearly why any manufacturer would not give support to help people buy their tents. That doesn't make sense. There are a lot of other tents that are hard to find in stores. Mountain Hardwear for example. It sounds like you're singling out Alps Mountaineering as being a bad apple. I find it hard to fault a company that makes a good, cheap tent (setting aside the question of cheap Chinese labor). Please identify yourself so I know where you're coming from. Retailer?
As Zeke pointed out, I do identify when I am putting my professional hat on and speaking from that point of view. But you want to know, so I'll say it again.
Putting my professional hat on....
I am the Senior Buyer for Adventure 16- a Southern California based Specialty Outdoor Retailer with only brick and Mortar Retail locations at this point in time. We are employee owned. I have been with Adventure 16 for 13 years- starting as a Salesperson and going up from there. I have done every position in the Store and in the Buying Department. Prior to that, I worked at other Outdoor shops and as a guide in both backpacking and Kayaking.
You won't see me hawking my companies wares here- that is a clear breech of the TOS of this site and my own personal ethics. The only time I have approached somebody on this site about Adventure 16 is when they had a potential service issue with us- I asked them to come in and I made it right.
I ment no disrespect to Alps- and what I stated on this site is exactly what I told them at Outdoor Retailer more than once. I think they make decent gear. Lot's Outdoor Companies do. I was just trying to give you some insight into why you won't find their gear in Retail Stores.
Once again, it has NOTHING to do with the quality of their product- it's decent stuff. If I were not involved in the Outdoor Industry and were looking for a tent- I would give them a lot of consideration- I think you get great value from their products. Probably should have said that in my original post.
As far as what manufacturers put out for information about their tents- I have spent a considerable amount of time with several of them asking for the same thing:
Pictures of 6 foot tall people lying down and sitting in the tent. 2 people in a 2 person tent, 3 people in a 3 person tent etc. That way a person could get a reasonable idea of how "habitable" a tent is.
You may see that coming from some manufacturers soon- but don't hold your breath.
Taking my professional hat off....
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Knowledge is the one thing you can aways carry more of- and not increase pack weight!!!!
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| Post Number: 23
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TrailTramper
Group: Members
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sep. 2009
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Posted on: Oct. 15 2012, 10:25 am |
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Obchristo, thanks for the information. I didn't know anything about you. I wasn't challenging you, really just inquiring.
The most useful sales tool is a video. Since thousands of ordinary people post gear reviews on YouTube, I'm wondering how hard that can be, really. Seems like it would take an hour or less for the manufacturer to do it and it would be so helpful. Sierra Designs makes a reasonable effort to create videos. That Zappos video guy is dang irritating.
A couple of manufacturers have set up a tent for me and sent me photos with a person or a cot in the tent. Very, very helpful, but I don't want to ask for that too often. It's a burden. But if they can do that, why not just post those photos at their website?
I'm thinking that very few companies would be willing to post a photo of 3 people in a 3-person tent. E.g., the tent is claimed to be 60" wide and the floor diagram shows 3 rectangles with plenty of space between them. Ha! Simple math tells you that three 20" mattresses are not going to have any space at all between them, plus we know the tent isn't really 60" wide in the first place. But photos would allow the honest companies to stand out against the others.
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skinewmexico
Group: Members
Posts: 1878
Joined: Sep. 2008
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2012, 10:34 am |
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Interesting post. I'm not sure I've ever spent over a few minutes debating a tent before buying it. I usually wait longer on the cash.
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Con men understand that their job is not to use facts to convince skeptics but to use words to help the gullible to believe what they want to believe. - Thomas Sowell
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| Post Number: 26
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TigerFan
Group: Members
Posts: 2005
Joined: May 2010
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2012, 11:28 am |
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(TrailTramper @ Oct. 12 2012, 7:11 pm)
QUOTE First, I can't find the tent I want to buy within travel distance. I would be willing to travel pretty far, but as far as I know the tent I want to see isn't anywhere around. (Alps Mountaineering Hybrid CE 3).
So, what made you want to buy this tent in the first place? (I'm not challenging your choice, btw, just truly curious.) For big items like a tent/pack/bag, I usually get interested because I've seen it or someone I know has it or it's a common/well-known model.
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Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
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cweston
Group: Members
Posts: 1422
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Posted on: Oct. 17 2012, 11:47 am |
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I'm a bit puzzled why you've only gotten "fly-by-night" type internet sources as hits. A lot of the more reputable on-line places sell ALPs tents: backcountry.com, STP, REI, etc. Do none of them carry the model you are looking for?
Also, call ALPs and ask if they'll match a price on a direct sale from them. I wouldn't be shocked if they would.
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