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zipposdad 
Group: Members
Posts: 315
Joined: Feb. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 14 2013, 8:05 pm |
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Here is the question. I have always layered my insulation using this method. First, closed cell pad on tent floor. Next is inflatable pad, then the down bag. (The down is up rather than down). Temp doesnt matter and what type of closed cell pad or inflatable pad doesnt matter. R value doesnt matter. I have always used this layering. It was recently suggested to put the inflatable down first then layer the closed cell then the down bag. What are your thoughts.
I know it sounds like the chicken or the egg, but to me it makes more logic to put the closed cell pad first to lessen heat loss due to conduction.
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Teach your babies to camp 
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| Post Number: 2
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markweth
Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: Jan. 2013
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Posted on: Feb. 14 2013, 8:28 pm |
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I put the closed-cell foam pad down first and then an inflatable pad on top. My logic is that I'm using the closed-cell foam pad to limit the chance of puncturing the inflatable pad and to add extra insulation from the ground.
I've used the following set up (wearing a lightweight wool baselayer and thick wool socks) down to the low teens (F) in a three-season tent with no issues:
- Thermarest Z-Lite 3/4 length close-cell foam pad
- Thermarest Neo Air All-season regular
- Marmot Pinnacle 15*F sleeping bag
If it's not broken, why fix it? I will continue using that system until I find a reason to switch.
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Mostly Southeastern Outdoor Scenery: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mvweth
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| Post Number: 3
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AlmostThere
I must not be there yet, I keep hiking...
Group: Members
Posts: 4965
Joined: Apr. 2008
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Posted on: Feb. 14 2013, 8:43 pm |
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How cold is your winter?
I'd put the ccf on top of the inflatable. Winter for me means snow, and what about snow punctures anything? Nothing.
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All truly great thoughts are conceived by walking.
Friedrich Nietzsche
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| Post Number: 4
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QCHIKER
Group: Members
Posts: 1741
Joined: Oct. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 14 2013, 8:59 pm |
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I put the CCF pad on top of my BA IAC pad. The reason is that the CCF is insulating you from the cold air in the pad. I used to do it with the CCF pad on the bottom and it feels warmer for me with it on the top.
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| Post Number: 5
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texasbb
Group: Members
Posts: 197
Joined: Dec. 2010
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Posted on: Feb. 14 2013, 9:08 pm |
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Straight conduction theory says it doesn't matter--the R-values sum in series.
But in reality there will probably be some short-circuiting due to air getting between the two layers. So, assuming the air is cold too (not just the ground), putting whichever layer has the higher R-value closest to you should be better.
Another thought: though I've never paired up two pads like that, as a very active side sleeper I suspect I'd have more trouble keeping the CCF on top of the inflatable than the other way around.
Summary: try it both ways and see what you like best.
EDIT - I forgot to add the snarky comment: Why do you bring the down bag into this? You'd seriously put it under or between the other layers? 
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| Post Number: 6
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zipposdad
Group: Members
Posts: 315
Joined: Feb. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 12:20 pm |
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texasbb, The snarky comment comes from a previous discussion we had while camping of the layering sequence where someone made the comment that the down was up not down even though in may not be down...
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Teach your babies to camp
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| Post Number: 7
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Tigger
Woods Pouncer
Group: Members
Posts: 10638
Joined: Apr. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 5:26 pm |
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I almost always put the CC pad down first. It keeps my self-inflating pad dry. The few times I put my CC pad on top, when I went to roll my self-inflating pad, I found ice/moisture on the bottom from condensation.
I am not that concerned with winter puncture but if the snow/ice is melting underneath you, it could have sharp edges from the thaw/freeze action.
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If I'm going to be lost, in the woods is where I want to be...
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| Post Number: 8
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STICK
~Stick~
Group: Members
Posts: 4120
Joined: Apr. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 15 2013, 8:56 pm |
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For me, I notice that I am much warmer if I layer my 1/8" ccf pad on top of my Neo. I have tried it both ways, and could never get warm (underneath) with the ccf under the NeoAir. I flipped them back around with the ccf on top and noticed instantly that I was warmer.
The ccf pad will hold warm air next to my body better than an air pad will, and just because the air pad is underneath the ccf pad, that doesn't mean it doesn't work anymore. Of course, this is my theory, but in my experience, it has proved to be true.
Oh yeah... and keeping the ccf pad in place has not been any issue whatsoever. Of course though, the ccf pad is a Gossamer Gear ThinLight 1/8" pad, and more recently the EvaRest 1/8" pad from Lawson Equipment. For reference, I am a side sleeper, but still find myself tossing and turning throughout the night.
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Jus' sayin'...
Sticks Blog
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| Post Number: 9
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leadbelly2550
Group: Members
Posts: 1047
Joined: Apr. 2009
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Posted on: Feb. 16 2013, 8:17 am |
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i use two closed cell foam pads, so it doesn't matter. i don't think R value accounts for layering in a different order - it's a function of how much insulating value you place between yourself and the ground.
if i were using an inflatable pad, i would put the closed cell next to the ground and the inflatable on top - not because it makes a diff for insulating value, but because it might be more comfortable to have the inflatable next to my back.
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| Post Number: 10
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Franco
Group: Members
Posts: 2708
Joined: Feb. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 16 2013, 5:35 pm |
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Often measurements and perception differ.
So if one perceive ,say, a CCF at the bottom to be warmer it will feel warmer regardless if it can be measured to be so or not.
As an example, not directly related but just to show how we react :
"Still another study found a significant increase in the complaints about the
cold in an office which was painted blue after being yellow even though the actual
temperature in the office had not changed"
http://psych.hanover.edu/research/thesis05/ernst.pdf
in my case I like to use the WM Summerlite in winter because that particular red makes me feel warmer...
( so a a yellow or red mat may be perceived to be warmer than exactly the same mat in dark green or blue...)
With pads having a CCF under can simply be better because it has a better grip on some floors and would protect your inflatable better that way.
If the inflatable is one of those Neo Air that relies on heat reflection, then it might well be that it works better closer to your body.
However if you happen to find a foam mat more comfortable next to your skin, then you may also find it "warmer"
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| Post Number: 11
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rayestrella
Group: Members
Posts: 6420
Joined: Nov. 2004
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Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 11:09 am |
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Thank god I used a (cold) blue bag in a (warm) yellow tent yesterday. I am going to paint my XTherm yellow tomorrow…
Attached Image
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I measure happiness with an altimeter
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| Post Number: 12
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Tigger
Woods Pouncer
Group: Members
Posts: 10638
Joined: Apr. 2005
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Posted on: Feb. 17 2013, 12:51 pm |
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Psychological or not, I have noticed a clear warmth difference putting the CCF on top with my combination in real world tests (and clearly more than just my mind). However, my combination of Prolite Plus and ZRest is plenty enough that I am not concerned about which goes on top.
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If I'm going to be lost, in the woods is where I want to be...
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
