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Topic: Arcteryx packs, 50L+< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 9:32 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've checked a couple out in a couple of local stores.  They seem like great bags, and have a generally excellent reputation.

I'm not a fan of the removable/greasable belt system, however.  Anyone have any problems with it?  I've read a few complaints, mostly about squeaking, which for folks like me who adore peace and quiet could be pretty darn annoying.  I have to say, it does seem a bit odd to have to grease a pack ( ??? ), but maybe it's worth it if their system is more comfortable with large packs/heavy loads/longer trips.

Also heard complaints about water bottles falling out of the side pockets, which are shorter than on most bags.  While some scoff at putting water bottles in these pockets, I tend to use them.  Maybe I just need to use the internal bladders and hoses more, which, truth be told, are easier to access than the pockets.

I'm considering Altra, Bora, and maybe even the Nozone series, although the Nozone are more for climbing, which I do basically none of.  I like the more minimal style of the Nozone, but style isn't a very good reason to buy a pack.

Size - probably about 60-70L, but right I'm more concerned with fit, function, etc. more than quibbling about 5L.

Thanks.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 5:29 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not sure what you mean by greaseable belts. On the pivot system belts maybe. The Bora 80 doesn't have that. I don't have any squeaking from my Bora, or at least nothing more than you'd expect from any pack (rubbing nylon will make some noise).

Water bottles stay put just fine in my belt bottle pockets, and the tops cinch up with shock-cords. They're great especially if you're not into bladder hydration systems. Which, incidently, sucks on the Bora - you put the bladder in the bottom of the lid where the pass-through is. Great for getting every last drop out, but obnoxiously unbalanced weight-wise and makes the pack lid ridiculously heavy. Design flaw IMO.

That being said - my Bora is amazing. It hasn't seen tons of use but looks brand new after several multi-day trips and various other day trips where I carried a lot.  It's a bit heavy but it carries everything very, very well. I wish the belt was a little thinner, I feel the thickness of the foam detracts from a better fit but perhaps with more break-in it will fit better (the foam is supposed to mould over time to fit your hips).
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 23 2013, 8:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Have you considered the Osprey Xenith pack? You can get a very good fit with them.  The shoulder harness, moldable hip belts and torso lengths come in a variety of sizes.  Very well thought-out packs as well.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 12:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(vigilguy @ Feb. 23 2013, 6:45 pm)
QUOTE
Have you considered the Osprey Xenith pack? You can get a very good fit with them.  The shoulder harness, moldable hip belts and torso lengths come in a variety of sizes.  Very well thought-out packs as well.

How many miles and with how much weight have you used the Xenith?

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 1:27 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(reubenstump @ Feb. 23 2013, 9:32 am)
QUOTE
I've checked a couple out in a couple of local stores.  They seem like great bags, and have a generally excellent reputation.

I'm not a fan of the removable/greasable belt system, however.  Anyone have any problems with it?  I've read a few complaints, mostly about squeaking, which for folks like me who adore peace and quiet could be pretty darn annoying.  I have to say, it does seem a bit odd to have to grease a pack ( ??? ), but maybe it's worth it if their system is more comfortable with large packs/heavy loads/longer trips.

Also heard complaints about water bottles falling out of the side pockets, which are shorter than on most bags.  While some scoff at putting water bottles in these pockets, I tend to use them.  Maybe I just need to use the internal bladders and hoses more, which, truth be told, are easier to access than the pockets.

I'm considering Altra, Bora, and maybe even the Nozone series, although the Nozone are more for climbing, which I do basically none of.  I like the more minimal style of the Nozone, but style isn't a very good reason to buy a pack.

Size - probably about 60-70L, but right I'm more concerned with fit, function, etc. more than quibbling about 5L.

Thanks.

I bought the Arc"Teryx Altra 65 last March that replaced a Kelty Dune from 1998 vintage.

Everything is perfect about this pack. It has always came in first place in any reputable review it has every been in including Backpacker magazine. The side pockets are not for water bottles; it has a dedicated side pouch for a water bladder.
As far as the "squeak" and "grease" of the swiveling belt, it is a non issue unless your some stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiot that takes the belt off of the pack and lays it down in a pile of dirt and then reinserts it back on the pack without cleaning it. The factory material that prevents the squeaking inside the belt connection is a hardened plastic type of material. If your stupid enough to to something totally incompetent and manager to get dirt and matter into the belt swivel, Arc'Teryx has even provided a small packet of lubricant to eliminate any squeak. My pack has a full spring, summer and falls worth of usage and has never squeaked once!
While the Osprey is a decent pack, it doesn't hold a candle to any Arc'Terryx pack in any category that they are measured by when reviewed by the experts.
I won't even go into the awesomeness of the ability of the pack to completely zip open like a suitcase for ease of accesses instead of taking everything out like a different brand of pack that you have to take everything out of to reach something in the bottom..

BTW, LIFETIME guarantee without a receipt!

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Packs/Altra-65#


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 24 2013, 10:42 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Watch out for the pivoting hip belt on the Altra.  I really wanted to like this pack because it was newer and lighter than the Bora.  I ended up with the Bora for a heavier load pack and it's been drama free.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 12:10 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....1142320

My review of the Altra 75 a couple years back... I found it wanting. The Bora's are far superior packs IMO and I've had the 50, 65 and currently the 80. My wife uses the 75.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 9:03 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpac....ltra-65

http://www.backpacker.com/editors....125

http://granitemountaineer.com/2010/07/15/altra-vs-bora/

http://getoutsidemore.com/?p=2472

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/arcteryx/altra-65/

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpac....ltra-65

https://twitter.com/OutdoorGearLab/status/271090122760540161

http://www.snewsnet.com/cgi-bin/snews/24277.html


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

thanks for all the replies.  buggy, i'm a lot of things but none of those.  i'm out of the country at the moment but will follow with replies when i get back.

thanks again.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 12:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Feb. 24 2013, 1:27 pm)
QUOTE
As far as the "squeak" and "grease" of the swiveling belt, it is a non issue unless your some stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiot that takes the belt off of the pack and lays it down in a pile of dirt and then reinserts it back on the pack without cleaning it. The factory material that prevents the squeaking inside the belt connection is a hardened plastic type of material. If your stupid enough to to something totally incompetent and manager to get dirt and matter into the belt swivel, Arc'Teryx has even provided a small packet of lubricant to eliminate any squeak.

Any particular reason you had to pepper that with aggressive and offensive statements? People put packs down under all kinds of conditions, dirt gets in them. Can't comment on how it would affect the belt here through personal experience, but not only:

QUOTE
stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiots


would put their pack down somewhere dirt abounds. Especially in desert areas where sand is ubiquitous. Swivel belts are gimmicky, and for those of us who do a lot of off-trail hiking, a potential liability. But I'm sure it's a minor cause for concern even for stoned granola freebasing idiots.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 1:45 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(SmokeyBear @ Feb. 25 2013, 12:44 pm)
QUOTE

(Buggyboo @ Feb. 24 2013, 1:27 pm)
QUOTE
As far as the "squeak" and "grease" of the swiveling belt, it is a non issue unless your some stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiot that takes the belt off of the pack and lays it down in a pile of dirt and then reinserts it back on the pack without cleaning it. The factory material that prevents the squeaking inside the belt connection is a hardened plastic type of material. If your stupid enough to to something totally incompetent and manager to get dirt and matter into the belt swivel, Arc'Teryx has even provided a small packet of lubricant to eliminate any squeak.

Any particular reason you had to pepper that with aggressive and offensive statements? People put packs down under all kinds of conditions, dirt gets in them. Can't comment on how it would affect the belt here, but not only

QUOTE
stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiots


would put their pack down somewhere dirt abounds. Especially in desert areas where sand is ubiquitous. Swivel belts are gimmicky, and for those of us who do a lot of off-trail hiking, a potential liability. But I'm sure it's a minor cause for concern even for stoned granola freebasing idiots.

Might want to reread what I said.

I said if one takes off the belt, and deliberately grinds it into a pile of dirt, then places it back onto the swivel component!
I read somewhere in a review comment section that someone admitted to taking it off and laying it swivel side down in dirt and leaves and then complained how it squeaked after he re installed it on the pack. The words I used is what I thought of the type of individual who would do such a stupid, deliberate thing.

If one is determined to lay the pack on it's back, pour dirt, grit and sand over and down in to the swivel belt system (extremely difficult proposition) and purposely tries to sabotage the belt swivel system just to prove some point, I'm sure it could be done.

I've used my pack in swamps, on ocean beaches, deep boreal forests, rocky arid and dusty trails just to name a few areas. NEVER had a single squeak! In the extremely rare case where one does find it contaminated by a stupid act as described, just take off the belt, rinse in a stream or blow out the debris and place a single drop of the provided lubricant inside the swivel system if needed.

Funny, in any of the reviews that I posted not one qualified expert mentioned "gimmicky". Just glowing reviews and first place awards every time over every other pack it competed against.

Ruben, I am the biggest nit picking skeptic when it comes to gear, especially with the price tag of the Altra 65 but I have found no flaw after 3 demanding seasons over the described terrains. Read the reviews and Google the research and I think you will agree about the quality of the Arc'Teryx Alta 65. If you buy it at REI or Backcountry you can always return it no questions asked. If you decide to send it back it will cost you UPS freight to get it back. PM me and I will mail you a check for that cost.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 7:07 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Feb. 25 2013, 1:45 pm)
QUOTE
Might want to reread what I said.

I said if one takes off the belt, and deliberately grinds it into a pile of dirt, then places it back onto the swivel component!
I read somewhere in a review comment section that someone admitted to taking it off and laying it swivel side down in dirt and leaves and then complained how it squeaked after he re installed it on the pack. The words I used is what I thought of the type of individual who would do such a stupid, deliberate thing.

If one is determined to lay the pack on it's back, pour dirt, grit and sand over and down in to the swivel belt system (extremely difficult proposition) and purposely tries to sabotage the belt swivel system just to prove some point, I'm sure it could be done.

I've used my pack in swamps, on ocean beaches, deep boreal forests, rocky arid and dusty trails just to name a few areas. NEVER had a single squeak! In the extremely rare case where one does find it contaminated by a stupid act as described, just take off the belt, rinse in a stream or blow out the debris and place a single drop of the provided lubricant inside the swivel system if needed.

Funny, in any of the reviews that I posted not one qualified expert mentioned "gimmicky". Just glowing reviews and first place awards every time over every other pack it competed against.

Ruben, I am the biggest nit picking skeptic when it comes to gear, especially with the price tag of the Altra 65 but I have found no flaw after 3 demanding seasons over the described terrains. Read the reviews and Google the research and I think you will agree about the quality of the Arc'Teryx Alta 65. If you buy it at REI or Backcountry you can always return it no questions asked. If you decide to send it back it will cost you UPS freight to get it back. PM me and I will mail you a check for that cost.

I read it. I didn't like the way in which you decided to outline how if someone was irresponsible or stupid they must be some kind of:

QUOTE
stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiots


It's irrelevant, and creating strawmen based on stereotypes not considered good etiquette here.

I understand you stated removing the belt. Which I thought was a bit silly, because no one would reasonably do what you said, regardless of their granola consumption habits. The most likely scenario would be putting the pack down in some dirt or sand and potentially some grit getting into the swivel. But it's probably not a big deal, as I said.

I'm glad the pack is working out well for you. I personally find the swivelling counter-productive to balancing the pack. In fact, I feel much more comfortable with a pack that stays nice and inflexible laterally. I found bending over sideways with a 50 lb pack that swivels to be unbalancing. I much prefer the way my Bora 80 articulates in comparison to the Altra. It's a personal preference. To me, it seems gimmicky, the same as for the Black Diamond packs that employ the same swivel technology.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 9:21 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(SmokeyBear @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:07 pm)
QUOTE
[/quote]
I read it. I didn't like the way in which you decided to outline how if someone was irresponsible or stupid they must be some kind of:

QUOTE
stoned out, trail ignorant, granola freebasing idiots


It's irrelevant, and creating strawmen based on stereotypes not considered good etiquette here.

I understand you stated removing the belt. Which I thought was a bit silly, because no one would reasonably do what you said, regardless of their granola consumption habits. The most likely scenario would be putting the pack down in some dirt or sand and potentially some grit getting into the swivel. But it's probably not a big deal, as I said.

I'm glad the pack is working out well for you. I personally find the swivelling counter-productive to balancing the pack. In fact, I feel much more comfortable with a pack that stays nice and inflexible laterally. I found bending over sideways with a 50 lb pack that swivels to be unbalancing. I much prefer the way my Bora 80 articulates in comparison to the Altra. It's a personal preference. To me, it seems gimmicky, the same as for the Black Diamond packs that employ the same swivel technology.

OK, you didn't like my description. I promise I wont lose any sleep over it.

I'll make sure I run all my comments pass you in the future to make sure they meet your criteria.

Fine, that's great your the tiny fraction of .0000001% that do not like it. Always one in every crowd that will disagree on anything.

Let's just say no to hijacking this thread and let Ruben decide?


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 10:31 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Buggyboo @ Feb. 25 2013, 7:03 am)
QUOTE

All that blather is supposed to convince me?

Too funny.

I'll bet I have FAR more experience with internals than any of the "testers"... have used internals exclusively since 1978... have had most makers a plethora of makers packs over the years.

The Altra hipbelt arrangement was tried and abandoned by most makers in the early 1980's... it's a poor design for many (not all) backs.

The Altra would be excellent with a lumbar and pass-behind belt.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 25 2013, 11:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have the Bora 80.  Great pack, comfortable even loaded with 60lbs, no squeaks, bombproof.  My only complaint is that it is a little too big for summer, fair-weather backpacking or short trips.

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(cadesun @ Feb. 25 2013, 9:01 pm)
QUOTE
I have the Bora 80.  Great pack, comfortable even loaded with 60lbs, no squeaks, bombproof.  My only complaint is that it is a little too big for summer, fair-weather backpacking or short trips.

Yeah, but you can pack out 110 lbs of elk in the Bora 80...




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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 7:57 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

To the OP,

While heavy, the Bora ia the most comfortable pack under weight I have ever used. It as also bombproof.

To the granola hating "expert",

Funny, read the problems people talk about on the Arc'teryx site itself.

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Packs/Altra-75#Over_60L

Might be better to wait for the next revision.

reubenstump, what weights are you planning on hauling though? I finally got rid of my Bora because my loads got down to where I didn't need the suspension, so couldn't justify the extra weight of the pack.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 9:18 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(rayestrella @ Feb. 26 2013, 7:57 am)
QUOTE
To the granola hating "expert",

Funny, read the problems people talk about on the Arc'teryx site itself.

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Packs/Altra-75#Over_60L

M

That's the Altra 75 your referencing.

I have the and recommend the Altra 65.


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 9:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(BradMT @ Feb. 25 2013, 10:31 pm)
QUOTE
The Altra hipbelt arrangement was tried and abandoned by most makers in the early 1980's... it's a poor design for many (not all) backs.

The Altra would be excellent with a lumbar and pass-behind belt.

Care to back up your personal conjecture with any evidence besides your "expert experience"?

Please, if it's a poor design why the total silence from every corner of the hiking community and nothing but awards and first place finishes in all the comparison reviews?

Don't hurt your back reaching for those straws!!!!


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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 10:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Buggy, I get your point and appreciate your comments.  No need to hammer those with differing views.

Thanks.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 11:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have a Bora 50, Bora 80, & Altra 75.
My 50 is Canadian made, and my 80 & Altra are made overseas.
I've not noticed a difference in the quality of construction....just in case you wondered.

I just keep going back to my Bora 80 because of its comfort level under heavy loads.  I'll probably try to sell the 75 if I can.  Frankly, it just rubbed me raw when I put 55lbs in it, but I'm sure others have found it to be a great pack.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 1:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I own an Altra 65 and and enjoy the pack.  I did notice a slight squeak after a lot of use, but cleaning out the gear mechanism did alleviate the squeak. It was noticeable, but not a real issue.  As far as the water bottle pockets, not an issue with my Nalgene, but if you use a collapsable bottle, it may be.  I would say that the Altra line has been redesigned this year, and the new pocket features (added a zipper) may fix that.  Here is a link to Backcountry that shows the redesign. http://www.backcountry.com/arctery....77cu-in
It looks like they have widened the base of the pack to put more weight low.  It is a comfortable pack to carry, and it takes some getting used to with the hipbelt moving with you, but as I found myself lightening my load, I recently picked up a ULA Catalyst.  I have been debating whether or not to put the Altra on ebay, as I have too many packs, and I have an old Osprey Aether 70 if I needed a load hauler, although it seems like the Arc holds as much if not more.  Just my two cents.  :p
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 26 2013, 8:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(UlightBandit @ Feb. 26 2013, 11:45 am)
QUOTE
I just keep going back to my Bora 80 because of its comfort level under heavy loads.  I'll probably try to sell the 75 if I can.  Frankly, it just rubbed me raw when I put 55lbs in it, but I'm sure others have found it to be a great pack.

I've only used the Altra loaded in the store, so can't comment personally on field use. But loaded up with the same weight as my Bora 80 it was obvious that the Altra suspension just couldn't handle it. It was a night and day difference, with the Altra sagging and straining under the load, and unable to keep it balanced on my back compared to the Bora which just begged for more. The swivel belt was annoying, but the poor loading bearing above 35-40 lbs was a deal breaker for me. If someone had a lot of ultra-light but bulky gear, maybe it would be a good pack. But for heavier loads it just didn't hold it worth a damn in my limited experience.

My Bora 80 might be a heavy-weight, but that extra 1kg over the Altra makes all the difference in terms of ease of carrying. Plus it offer much better water resistance and a more durable face-fabric.

But the Bora isn't for everyone, and my buddy loves his gregory over my Bora.
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 28 2013, 2:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just looked on the Arc'teryx site and it no longer shows any of the Bora series.  Anyone know if the Bora 80 has been discontinued?
John
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 28 2013, 8:21 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(graybones @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:17 am)
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Just looked on the Arc'teryx site and it no longer shows any of the Bora series.  Anyone know if the Bora 80 has been discontinued?
John

It sure looks that way.
The Bora series as well as the old RT series were their best packs, IMO.

I assume these packs will now have a decent resale value on the used gear market, as the DD Terraplane packs have.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 9:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(graybones @ Feb. 28 2013, 2:17 am)
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Just looked on the Arc'teryx site and it no longer shows any of the Bora series.  Anyone know if the Bora 80 has been discontinued?
John

The Bora series has gone the way of the Dodo bird. While it was good for it's time and could carry huge loads, the weight of and old design lead to it's demise. Better packs, lighter, stronger fabrics and technology has pass it by.

Hmmm, think I would like of each;

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product....y=Packs


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 9:41 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

While it was good for it's time and could carry huge loads, the weight of and old design lead to it's demise. Better packs, lighter, stronger fabrics and technology has pass it by.


speaking of technology....try your spell check


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getting old stinks...but it beats the alternative
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 10:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(wcolucci @ Mar. 01 2013, 9:41 am)
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While it was good for it's time and could carry huge loads, the weight of and old design lead to it's demise. Better packs, lighter, stronger fabrics and technology has pass it by.


speaking of technology....try your spell check

Another unemployed English teacher with too much time on their hands. :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 4:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Manufacturers don't discontinue a line just because it is obsolete. Many times they do to force the "new" thing down the buyers throats. Unfortunately for them the buyers don't have to buy the new tech.

Case in point was the Mountainsmith MountainLight series. loved by many it had a huge following. Then they dropped it completely to push some new "better" line. It did horrible. As did everything else they tried for the next 4 years. At the summer OR Show I saw that they are bringing back the MountainLight line, albeit totally new designs. I asked the rep why they had ever disco'd the first line and she siad that that is a good question and one they all regretted in hindsite.

Arcteryx may do the same. Time will tell.


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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 01 2013, 6:58 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

The new NoZone model looks like the successor to the Bora:

http://www.arcteryx.com/product....zone-75

And at nearly half the weight, with what appears to be a similar level of padding and suspension, it has a lot of potential. But the technology of new materials hasn't been that dramatic in the last decade, and I'm guessing that there is certainly a durability trade-off. I don't feel that my Bora is already "out-dated". That being said, I'd consider selling it to take 3 lbs off my back if the NoZone really works as well.
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