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Topic: Advice Needed: New 3+ Season Tent, 3+ Season Tent< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 1:47 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I had an old Marmot Swallow that I loved dearly.  That thing was bombproof and got me through some serious storms.  I got a 3 season tent a few years ago, a Big Agnes Emerald Mountain 3 person tent that I thought would be a reasonable but lighter replacement.  

Silly me.  It does not, naturally, fare nearly as well in colder or bad weather conditions though it is great for summer and late spring/early fall.  It did not do so nicely this past week out on the Plains with some early cold weather and some brisk wind gusts up to 50mph in the Badlands.

As I seem to often head out in the fringes of normal travel seasons, this trip made me realize I really do need a solid 3+ season tent.  I usually car camp so weight is not a huge issue but I would like the option to take it away for a weekend backcountry trip as well if possible.  

I want something with the security and bombproofedness? of the Swallow that endeared this one to me.  Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 1:54 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Why try and stretch things past their limits? Why not get a solid shoulder season shelter and keep the BA for what it's best at?

One size doesn't necessarily fit all, at least well....

Oh and for how many occupants?
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 2:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

May not be a substitute for your Swallow, but for conditions like you describe I really like my REI Arete.  Its 5.5 lbs, sleeps two if your comfy together, packs light and is very bombproof.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 3:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

How about the REI Half Dome or the LL Bean Microlight 2?

both pretty good values as well.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 3:44 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

http://www.ebay.com/itm....2686566

ETA: Oops! Sold. I'm not all that observant.

Never mind. Follow the advice from the other posters. Get a 3 season and a tent for the rigors of winter. Best way to go.
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 5:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The backpacker site's tent finder:

convertible tents with a review from BP

Oh that;s with a weight < 3lbs, which u can change easuky enough

I remember when the magazine featured these type tents, I think the swallow was one.  Eureak's Aurora was another?  It was discontinued before the article came out.  I liked the side view on that tent so years later I got Black Diamond's Lighthouse, which I think leaks though BD said it wa probably condnesation.  Their HighLight uses a better fabric, but like Epic I think it will wet out eventually so probably not a go to tent, and it is not as long as the lighthouse, probably a bit short for me and I am  just barely 5' 10"

I use Black Diamond's Beta Light for snow camping in the spring.  Drafty but you can stake it down low (easier to do than my Double Rainbow) if the wind is enough to keep the condensation at bay.  With the Beta Bug it can be used it summer too, though heaver than my DR, but it has a heavy duty floor.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 5:49 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

At some point Tigger will come along and recommend his GoLite Shangri-La 5 (or the comparable Shangri-La 2 or 3), which I think is an excellent way to go.

Or you could go all out and get one of these:
SlingFin HardShell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-K8H8H1MzI

Tent: $1415.00
Poles: $268.00

If this is too much tent for you, then you might want to try the SlingFin OneUp for 2.

Guaranteed to stand up to those windy days!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 6:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

What the heck...I recommend a Golite Shangri-La 5...but you can get one of your own. Proven strong shelter for high winds, easy to setup, tons of room, and lightweight. I use the fly only option in winter so I can dig out the snow for a pit, but to each their own and each environment.

I have also seen an REI Arete handle some incredible snow loads and strong winds as well.

I don't know what your shoulder season is like. Ours is basically the same thing as full on winter if not worse because I never know if it will be raining, windy, sleeting or snowing.


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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 6:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Yes I would keep the Emerald Mountain for summer and such but find something else in addition for the more unpredictable fringe times and such.

I'm mostly looking at 3 person but a roomy 2 person would be good too.  I dont think I need to go full on Slingfin even if my budget would allow I'd really like to keep it sub $400 if at all possible.

I don't do much actual winter camping but I really do like getting out pre Memorial Day, post Labor Day to avoid crowds and such and those weeks can be, as I found out this past week, more than my current tent can really handle.  Thank goodness for my Cat's Meow, that thing always keeps me toasty!
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PostIcon Posted on: Sep. 30 2013, 7:38 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Alps Mountaineering makes three tents that might interest you. They all have the same basic shape and two-panel doors---one mesh and one fabric---meaning great ventilation in the summer and warmth in the winter.

Here are the differences:

Hybrid CE: Dual fabric/mesh doors, but the mesh windows on the end don't have fabric. Suitable into late fall. 3P $162 at Tent Authority.

Jagged Peak: Same as the Hybrid CE but all doors and vents have additional fabric panels. So this would be a true 4-season tent. You wouldn't need separate winter and summer tents with this one. 3P $170 at Big Supply Shop.

Extreme: sturdier 3-pole structure. Note however that the two-pole frame is plenty strong. The website doesn't clarify whether the end windows can be closed, but a review mentions using this tent on Mt. Ranier. 3P on Amazon $183.

Although this tent shape should stand up to wind well, it has one disadvantage in the rain. Because of the steeply sloping sides, rain enters the tent when you open the fly door. If you look at the photo you'll see that the top of the tent door is centered about over the middle of the floor, so rain will fall directly on your sleeping bag. You can only open the fly door a few inches from the bottom before rain starts hitting the floor.

Also, on a tent with steep sides the vestibules tend to extend quite far out from the tent, making for a large footprint.

I've owned two Alps tents, including the Hybrid CE 3. They are study, weatherproof tents and can usually be found for under $200. Don't be fooled by the low price, these are quality tents.

These tents aren't light but maybe one of them will work if you have two people splitting the weight. Oh yeah, one last thing: make sure you understand the advantages and disadvantages of a hexagonal floor plan.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 7:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's not your tent, it's your sleep system. I don't have a 3+ season tent, (mine is an Alps Mountaineering Zephyr 2,) but have enjoyed deep winter backpacking in it for years. I do, however, have a GoLite Adrenaline 0* bag and a BA insulated pad. Toasty to 10*.

I pitch my tent to keep precipitation off of me, and that's about it. A tent doesn't keep you warm, it keeps you dry. A poorly ventilated tent will make you colder as the condensation you create freezes.

I spent less than $100 on my tent, and it's performed admirably.

In the winter, people sleep in the backcountry with little more than protection from the cold. In some state parks, (like Harriman where I frequent,) you're only allowed to sleep in lean-to's unless there are people there. Lean-to's have an open side.

If you're going to be doing more than that, like expedition backpacking, then you'll need that 'bombproofedness' that you so euphemistically referred to. Otherwise, a good, <5 pound, general purpose tent will serve fine.

People use hammocks to enjoy camping, as well. Different technology, but the same applies -- you save the heat you produce while in your shelter, not trying to heat the shelter.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:43 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bigsilk @ Oct. 01 2013, 4:26 am)
QUOTE
It's not your tent, it's your sleep system. I don't have a 3+ season tent, (mine is an Alps Mountaineering Zephyr 2,) but have enjoyed deep winter backpacking in it for years. I do, however, have a GoLite Adrenaline 0* bag and a BA insulated pad. Toasty to 10*.

I pitch my tent to keep precipitation off of me, and that's about it. A tent doesn't keep you warm, it keeps you dry. A poorly ventilated tent will make you colder as the condensation you create freezes.

I spent less than $100 on my tent, and it's performed admirably.

In the winter, people sleep in the backcountry with little more than protection from the cold. In some state parks, (like Harriman where I frequent,) you're only allowed to sleep in lean-to's unless there are people there. Lean-to's have an open side.

If you're going to be doing more than that, like expedition backpacking, then you'll need that 'bombproofedness' that you so euphemistically referred to. Otherwise, a good, <5 pound, general purpose tent will serve fine.

People use hammocks to enjoy camping, as well. Different technology, but the same applies -- you save the heat you produce while in your shelter, not trying to heat the shelter.

The OP is actually asking for a bombproof tent due to 50+ mph winds they dealt with. "Silly me.  It does not, naturally, fare nearly as well in colder or bad weather conditions though it is great for summer and late spring/early fall.  It did not do so nicely this past week out on the Plains with some early cold weather and some brisk wind gusts up to 50mph in the Badlands. " Not all tents do that well, which I have learned from experience.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 1:34 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

People use hammocks to enjoy camping, as well. Different technology, but the same applies --

My hiking partner uses a hammock...I'd love to see that in 50+ mile an hour winds.

I can see it spinning around itself trapping him inside...then unwinding at 4g centrifugal force...  :D


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 01 2013, 10:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(bigsilk @ Oct. 01 2013, 7:26 am)
QUOTE
I don't have a 3+ season tent, (mine is an Alps Mountaineering Zephyr 2,) but have enjoyed deep winter backpacking in it for years. I do, however, have a GoLite Adrenaline 0* bag and a BA insulated pad. Toasty to 10*.

A tent doesn't keep you warm, it keeps you dry.
I spent less than $100 on my tent, and it's performed admirably.

I do rely completely on my sleeping bag and mattress to keep me warm. However, I find that any tent, including the all-mesh Zephyr, will be about 10 degrees warmer inside than outside with the fly closed. And a tent that closes up completely with fabric panels (except for small vents) will add still more warmth. In wind the impact of a tent and closed fabric doors will be even greater and will keep you much warmer than no tent. That's my experience. So I think that yes, a tent does keep you warmER than you would be without it.

I haven't used my Zephyr in high wind, but my sense is that the frame, especially where it has the sharp bend, might not be that strong. I think the Hybrid CE has a stronger frame and better wind resistance.

I totally agree with you about tent prices. I've never spent more than $180 on a tent and most of them have been rugged and waterproof. I think people are just reluctant to believe that a $100 tent could keep you dry and stand up to rough weather. The Zephyr is one of my all-time favorites.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 1:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(TrailTramper @ Oct. 01 2013, 7:36 pm)
QUOTE
I think people are just reluctant to believe that a $100 tent could keep you dry and stand up to rough weather. The Zephyr is one of my all-time favorites.

Consider me reluctant. The list is very short for me of the shelters that I own or have owned that have withstood a 50+ mph wind without being a brutal experience. All have been 4-season shelters. I've had several two pole crossover design tents like the Zephyr over the years and each has folded over nearly flat in less than those conditions.

If you've been in a $100 3 season two pole shelter in 50+ mph winds and made it through, that's great. It's not been my personal experience with tents like that. I don't care what you paid for your tent.

This is a pic of a four season shelter with 16 stake points and 8 guy-outs in a 50+ mph storm for reference. I've also had several 3 and 4 pole tents handle those kind of winds reasonably.



I'd be interested to see your shelter in similar conditions.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 02 2013, 8:15 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Tigger, you misread me. I wouldn't recommend the Zephyr in those conditions. I said, "my sense is that the frame, especially where it has the sharp bend, might not be that strong." I The Alps Extreme might work though. By "rough weather" I didn't necessarily mean 50 mph winds.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 1:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Sorry if misread you. I was trying to focus on desire of the OP and assumed we were all on the same subject of finding a shelter that could handle shoulder season weather, which I actually would consider the fourth season considering 50+ mph winds are clearly some serious wind. I remember not sleeping due to the roaring noises and violent shaking on a few storms of that magnitude.

I realize that side topics come up often within threads and I didn't realize that you were on a tangent. I've had more than a few tangent conversations myself. Carry on...LOL!


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 10:05 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

*laughs* Thanks all for the replies!

Sleep system wise, I learned on an early season trip in the White Mountains in NH I needed another bit of ground cover instead of just using my Thermarest so I use both that and a small inflatable now that keeps me toasty with my Cats Meow.  

As someone else mentioned I just figure in cold windy weather or bad conditions that having a tent that is not all mesh sides like the emerald mountain would be beneficial in keeping things warmer.

As for the stability, this is the first time I've run into wind gusts quite like that and it was a good experience all in all.  This was also the first time I've ever had a properly staked out tent half collapse on me so it was clearly time to review.

The Emerald Mountain has two pole systems (apologies if I dont have the wording quite right).  The main pole has two 3 pronged hubs at each long end of the tent, connected across the tent and then two pole extensions to each corner, obviously.  Another pole goes across the tent to support the fly and fits into a small pouch on the tent itself and into the fly cover.

I think what happened in this case is that the wind was gusting all over the map and in a bad direction in this case, end on and so it basically pushed one of those hubs so much that it just gave way to collapse that half of the tent.  

The experience, also my first on the plains, just made me want to re-think my main usage seasons and consider something else that better fits the majority of the times I'm out.  Since I just moved to Colorado last year and haven't been out in the mountains so much a 3+ season also seems better suited to variable conditions I might encounter out there as well.

Thanks so much for the advice and replies!

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 12:08 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There are some tents that you can use either a mesh or solid inner (not at once though), Tarptents & Hillenberg for instance , I think.  Sil-nylon does not provide much shade either, still so much lighter. I think warmlight (?) makes one with an alymiunized outer.  That made me think using a space blanket for a ground cloth, but using it as a cover over it on warm buggy tent bounds time.

Weight in the tent or bag?  My Beta Light is 1.5 lbs, not counting trekking poles or stakes.  That allow me to take 3.5 lbs more in my sleep system then if I used a 5 lb tent! The Bug brings that to just over 3 pounds so 2 extra pounds in that case. It handles wind very well, but Black Diamond says occupants might not. Still there are times, like when I skied around Crater Lake that my wind blocking Light House was nice.(though I left the vent wide open and door at least that open to the extent I wasn't cold doing so)  And while I had a down coat, I wasn't always tucked into my sleeping bag, my arms don't like being pinned in my bag even when I am asleep, but I do it if I have to.  I could have made the Beta Light work too, burying part of it in snow, maybe build snow wall etc. if I had too.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 2:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Tigger @ Sep. 30 2013, 6:24 pm)
QUOTE
What the heck...I recommend a Golite Shangri-La 5...but you can get one of your own. Proven strong shelter for high winds, easy to setup, tons of room, and lightweight. I use the fly only option in winter so I can dig out the snow for a pit, but to each their own and each environment.

I took Tigger's advice and got one (Shangri-la 5)  for winter and I love the room and it does hold up to high winds.  Also at his recommendation, I made a skirt for the bottom to keep out spindrift.

There are times, however, especially in our mountains, when I need a smaller footprint.  I use a Mountain Hardwear Spire II for that.  It is, as you say, bombproof.  It is a two person (small persons) that weighs around 4 lbs.  It takes high winds and snow loads very well.
Our 'shoulder season' gets both.
YMMV


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 03 2013, 7:04 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Tigger @ Oct. 03 2013, 1:26 am)
QUOTE
Sorry if misread you. I was trying to focus on desire of the OP and assumed we were all on the same subject of finding a shelter that could handle shoulder season weather, which I actually would consider the fourth season considering 50+ mph winds are clearly some serious wind.

My reply was to bigsilk, who is very fond of his Zephyr. I love the Zephyr too, but I'm realistic about its limitations. I think it's too square and the frame is too weak for high winds. But I think the other Alps tents I mentioned might work. If so, then they demonstrate that you can but a pretty solid tent for around $150.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 04 2013, 3:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here is an interesting site for tents, the ultralights are rated better for weather protection

The ultra lights as a group are rated better for weather protection?


You can sort by click on the rows.

Hilleberg Anjan 2 had the highest rating for weather, not counting 4 season tents, some of those are bad in rain though.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 12 2013, 11:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Look into the REI Arete.  Great 3-4 season tent for the money.  Not a truly expedition tent, but plenty good for most of us who venture into 4 season backpacking/skiing.

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