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WalksWithBlackflies 
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8760
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 8:40 am |
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All of his blood testing showed no drugs, but there is now a 200-page report detailing accounts of 26 witnesses, including 11 teammates.
http://news.yahoo.com/armstro....pt.html
My opinion: If USADA regarded the USPS team as "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen", why did they only go after Armstrong? Without a doubt this was a witch hunt, but may be the only witch hunt in the history of the world to have actually caught a witch.
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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Lamebeaver
trail? I don't need no stinkin trail!
Group: Members
Posts: 16226
Joined: Aug. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:11 am |
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If your or I took a drug test at work which came back positive, we would either be fired, or forced into a drug rehabilitation program.
You can call it a "witch hunt" but the people carrying the torches are the media.
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8760
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:13 am |
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Here's the actual report:
http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2012/10/Reasoned-Decision.pdf
Of note: 20 of the 21 podium finishers in the TdF during the Lance years have been implicated in some way with doping
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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RebeccaD
Double Arch, Arches N.P.
Group: Members
Posts: 9867
Joined: Jul. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:20 am |
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I find myself a little inclined to not care if/that he used. I could dope all over the place and not ride like that (not even if I trained like that). So I'm still impressed by his achievements. Given that probably all the contenders were doping, it seems almost a moot point.
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Bits of writerly thoughts and random short fiction found at
The Ninja Librarian Blog
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Marmotstew
Group: Members
Posts: 8698
Joined: May 2006
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:23 am |
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I heard Lamebeaver injected eyebp in the butt with steroids before the 14er at pickle gulch. Just sayin'
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I'd rather be Facebooking watching videos of cats licking themselves
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RebeccaD
Double Arch, Arches N.P.
Group: Members
Posts: 9867
Joined: Jul. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:26 am |
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And yet, several of us other flatlanders beat him to the top. I rest my case--doping isn't the whole story 
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Bits of writerly thoughts and random short fiction found at
The Ninja Librarian Blog
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TravisNWood
W Y O M I N G
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Posts: 14891
Joined: Apr. 2006
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:28 am |
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I don't much care anymore either, for all the reasons Rebecca named.
But to answer the question: Yeah, it's a witch hunt.
If the anti-doping agencies are so stupid that one guy and his teammates can dupe them year after year through hundreds of tests that never return a positive result, then clearly most every other team had similar capabilities.
Even if you follow that logic, the best that can be said for the anti-doping agencies is that they are colassally incompetent at best, or corrupt as an outhouse stinkpile at worse.
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Location — Wyoming
Webpages — Cloud Peak Wilderness Maps — Rocky Mountain Wildlife
Photos — Bighorn Mountains — Wyoming Steppes
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big_load
Group: Members
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Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:52 am |
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Both: definitely witch hunt, probably guilty. I doubt there's been a clean TDF winner since almost the beginning. As noted in previous threads, nearly all the top 5 (or more) finishers in each of Lance's winning years are proven dopers. The rest escape that label probably because they haven't been subjected to such a massive and prolonged witch hunt.
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WalksWithBlackflies
Resident Eco-Freak Bootlicker
Group: Members
Posts: 8760
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:01 am |
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Here's a graphic, Top Finishers of the Tour de France Tainted by Doping:
http://www.nytimes.com/interac....cycling
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When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be. - Lao Tzu
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
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Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:49 am |
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He passed the same chemical lab tests, 700 times and counting, that caught Contador, Landis, Eddy Merckx etc. as did all his teammates IIRC.
Maybe it's at least partly my lab research bias but when what, to date, is coerced hearsay evidence I'm going to go with witch hunt especially when the 8 year statute of limitations is just casually tossed aside as the state's agency has done. The Department of Justice probably got it right in dropping criminal investigations: the spent enough time on it and THEY could leverage testimony with threats of jail yet couldn't gain traction.
Were a sample from a race be tested and found positive for a banned substance or indicator then that race result (I'm thinking of his 2010, 2009 comeback attempts) should be changed as it has been for Contador and Landis. But note that for races where Contador has NOT been linked with a positive sample he's retained his championships.
Oh it's also clearly a witch hunt when an agency loudly shouts it's "stripping" titles, results and championships from a competitor when it has been repeatedly reminded by the organizations that DO have jurisdiction over the Tour de France (UCI, WADA and the Tour itself) that the USADA doesn't have the authority. That appears to make the hunt oddly personal.
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RumiDude
Group: Members
Posts: 13648
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 12:18 pm |
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I have been active on a couple bike racing boards for several years and the Armstrong controversy has raged for years. Some have claimed that only by santioning the biggies from the past will prevent present and future riders from doping. I have always stated that looking back and trying to sanction riders of the past is an backassward way of policing the sport. Instead, their efforts should be to the now and to the future. By this action, they have almost totally destroyed any hope that cycling will ever have of growing into a mature clean sport. Cycling will be viewed as just a step above pro-wrestling and roller derby.
Rumi
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“This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all.”
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hbfa
Group: Members
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Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 12:53 pm |
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Personally, I believe he doped.
That being said, I don't believe Lance was given due process in the USADA investigation. The methods they used to claim his guilt would not hold up in a courtroom.
But as other have said - it's a moot point. He certainly wasn't competing against athletes that were training on bread and water.
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wildlifenate
Group: Members
Posts: 5834
Joined: Jul. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 1:51 pm |
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Did any of you read the actual document? I spent a bit of time reading it yesterday and a lot of the issues brought up are addressed there.
USADA outlines its case for why it has the authority to strip Lance's titles. Not much I can say there, but they put it out there for all to see.
USADA outlines the reasoning for why the statute of limitations does not apply here. Lance was actively preventing people from coming forward about this for YEARS (going back at least to his cancer treatment days).
As I read it, this didn't become a witch hunt until Lance refused to come forward with the others about what happened. It seems the original investigation was about the US Postal and Discovery Teams and the way they avoided getting caught. Lance refused to cooperate with the investigation, so they went on without him and skewered him in the process.
He did have at least one positive test result for steroids many years ago and the team managed to fabricate the steroid cream story.
The report is especially damning of the UCI and its efforts to actively overlook Lance's transgressions, because he was their poster boy for increasing participation and revenue in the US.
The 200 page report is the summary version.
I didn't have any delusions about him doping before, but I was in the camp of leaving him alone because it happened so long ago. After reading parts of the report yesterday, I've changed my mind. Most of the report was about HOW it was done. It details smuggling operations and how the actual doping was hidden from investigators. I think it's very informative - if we want to prevent it in the future, we need to know how it was done in the past.
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The GPS Geek
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High_Sierra_Fan
Group: Members
Posts: 39584
Joined: Aug. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:17 pm |
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Well, the USADA CEO disagrees:
"Tygart [USADA CEO] said UCI was "bound to recognize our decision and impose it" as a signer of the World Anti-Doping Code.
"They have no choice but to strip the titles under the code," he said."
If the UCI has to "impose" and strip the titles then the USADA didn't have that authority did it? Which has been UCI's position all along in this matter. Simple institutional over reach or a bitter agenda? hard to say.
The Olympics committee has responded similarly.
I'd still prefer lab results over hearsay.
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| Post Number: 26
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scroat
Group: Guests
Posts: 168
Joined: Oct. 2012
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:30 pm |
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If I was Lance, I'd tell them all to piss off and get on with my life. What a bunch of miserable bastards the USADA are.
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Talus.
Delsolation is my destination
Group: Members
Posts: 1894
Joined: Aug. 2006
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:36 pm |
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According to the report he insisted that teammates dope to help him win. He's an arrogant SOB and he got what he deserved. There are also some pretty serious allegations that he used funds from his charities for personal profit.
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“Mountains are not Stadiums where I satisfy my ambition to achieve, they are the cathedrals where I practice my religion.”
― Anatoli Boukreev
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scroat
Group: Guests
Posts: 168
Joined: Oct. 2012
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Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:51 pm |
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Doping, meh
Embezzlement, not so much
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| Post Number: 30
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Survival Skills 101 • Eat Better
