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Topic: Lance Armstrong - Guilty or Witch Hunt?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 8:40 am  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All of his blood testing showed no drugs, but there is now a 200-page report detailing accounts of 26 witnesses, including 11 teammates.

http://news.yahoo.com/armstro....pt.html

My opinion: If USADA regarded the USPS team as "the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen", why did they only go after Armstrong? Without a doubt this was a witch hunt, but may be the only witch hunt in the history of the world to have actually caught a witch.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:11 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If your or I took a drug test at work which came back positive, we would either be fired, or forced into a drug rehabilitation program.

You can call it a "witch hunt" but the people carrying the torches are the media.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:13 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's the actual report:

http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2012/10/Reasoned-Decision.pdf

Of note: 20 of the 21 podium finishers in the TdF during the Lance years have been implicated in some way with doping


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:17 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 11 2012, 10:11 am)
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If your or I took a drug test at work which came back positive, we would either be fired, or forced into a drug rehabilitation program.

You can call it a "witch hunt" but the people carrying the torches are the media.

He NEVER had a positive drug test. Using your scenario, you pass the drug test but some of your co-workers tell your boss that they saw you take drugs, so they fire you. And there are rumors that your co-workers were given cash and/or immunity in order to provide said testimony.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I find myself a little inclined to not care if/that he used.  I could dope all over the place and not ride like that (not even if I trained like that).  So I'm still impressed by his achievements.  Given that probably all the contenders were doping, it seems almost a moot point.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:23 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I heard Lamebeaver injected eyebp in the butt with steroids before the 14er at pickle gulch. Just sayin'
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:26 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

And yet, several of us other flatlanders beat him to the top.  I rest my case--doping isn't the whole story :D

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:27 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Oct. 11 2012, 7:20 am)
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I find myself a little inclined to not care if/that he used.  I could dope all over the place and not ride like that (not even if I trained like that).  So I'm still impressed by his achievements.  Given that probably all the contenders were doping, it seems almost a moot point.

What she said, minus the "almost".  

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:28 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I don't much care anymore either, for all the reasons Rebecca named.

But to answer the question: Yeah, it's a witch hunt.

If the anti-doping agencies are so stupid that one guy and his teammates can dupe them year after year through hundreds of tests that never return a positive result, then clearly most every other team had similar capabilities.

Even if you follow that logic, the best that can be said for the anti-doping agencies is that they are colassally incompetent at best, or corrupt as an outhouse stinkpile at worse.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 10:52 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Both: definitely witch hunt, probably guilty.  I doubt there's been a clean TDF winner since almost the beginning. As noted in previous threads, nearly all the top 5 (or more) finishers in each of Lance's winning years are proven dopers.  The rest escape that label probably because they haven't been subjected to such a massive and prolonged witch hunt.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:01 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's a graphic, Top Finishers of the Tour de France Tainted by Doping:

http://www.nytimes.com/interac....cycling


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Oct. 11 2012, 7:20 am)
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Given that probably all the contenders were doping, it seems almost a moot point.

I tend to agree.

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Oct. 11 2012, 10:20 am)
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I could dope all over the place and not ride like that (not even if I trained like that).

{Miguel} Indurain had a physiology superior to fellow athletes. His blood took seven litres of oxygen around his body per minute, compared to 3–4 litres for an ordinary person and 5–6 litres for fellow riders. His cardiac output is 50 litres a minute; a fit amateur cyclist's is about 25 litres. Indurain's lung capacity was 7.8 litres, compared to an average of 6 litres. His resting pulse was as low as 28 BPM, compared to an average 60–72 bpm, which meant his heart would be less strained in the tough mountain stages. His VO2 max was 88 ml/kg/min; in comparison, Lance Armstrong's was 83.8 ml/kg/min and Greg LeMond's was more than 92 ml/kg/min.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Indurain#Physical_advantages


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:20 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Oct. 11 2012, 7:52 am)
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Both: definitely witch hunt, probably guilty.  I doubt there's been a clean TDF winner since almost the beginning. As noted in previous threads, nearly all the top 5 (or more) finishers in each of Lance's winning years are proven dopers.  The rest escape that label probably because they haven't been subjected to such a massive and prolonged witch hunt.

It is a witch hunt in the sense they went after Lance rather than dopers in general.  Yea, what about all those who confessed and gave evidence.  The USADA has given lip service to the idea they will sanction some of these riders, but many of these are STILL riding.  WTF?

It is very likely USADA has overstated their case and just as likely Lance Armstrong doped.  The real truth to the extent will probably never be known publicly.

If the strip Armstrong of his TDF titles, who are they going to give them to?  Seriously!

Rumi


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:34 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Oct. 11 2012, 11:01 am)
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Here's a graphic, Top Finishers of the Tour de France Tainted by Doping:

http://www.nytimes.com/interac....cycling

And that's only the recent ones.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:36 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RebeccaD @ Oct. 11 2012, 10:20 am)
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I find myself a little inclined to not care if/that he used.  I could dope all over the place and not ride like that (not even if I trained like that).  So I'm still impressed by his achievements.  Given that probably all the contenders were doping, it seems almost a moot point.

Pretty much agree. Among cycling's elite, my conclusion is that the playing field was level enough to ensure competition. Armstrong dominated a doped-up field, IMO.

But as the father of a young son, I don't want the message that doping is OK under any circumstance.

Re Armstrong, it's both. He and his profession are guilty of doping, and he has been subject to a persistent witch-hunt.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:46 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(RumiDude @ Oct. 11 2012, 11:20 am)
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If the strip Armstrong of his TDF titles, who are they going to give them to?  Seriously!

I'm still failing to understand how a US agency has the authority to strip him of titles won in a race in France.  Seems like the international cycling union (UCI) would be the organization closest to that kind of power.

I guess their next step in their quest against all things armstrong could be for them to lobby all the world's cycling bodies and race organizers to strip his titles.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 11:49 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

He passed the same chemical lab tests, 700 times and counting, that caught Contador, Landis, Eddy Merckx etc. as did all his teammates IIRC.

Maybe it's at least partly my lab research bias but when what, to date, is coerced hearsay evidence I'm going to go with witch hunt especially when the 8 year statute of limitations is just casually tossed aside as the state's agency has done. The Department of Justice probably got it right in dropping criminal investigations: the spent enough time on it and THEY could leverage testimony with threats of jail yet couldn't gain traction.

Were a sample from a race be tested and found positive for a banned substance or indicator then that race result (I'm thinking of his 2010, 2009 comeback attempts) should be changed as it has been for Contador and Landis. But note that for races where Contador has NOT been linked with a positive sample he's retained his championships.

Oh it's also clearly a witch hunt when an agency loudly shouts it's "stripping" titles, results and championships from a competitor when it has been repeatedly reminded by the organizations that DO have jurisdiction over the Tour de France (UCI, WADA and the Tour itself) that the USADA doesn't have the authority. That appears to make the hunt oddly personal.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 12:18 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I have been active on a couple bike racing boards for several years and the Armstrong controversy has raged for years.  Some have claimed that only by santioning the biggies from the past will prevent present and future riders from doping.  I have always stated that looking back and trying to sanction riders of the past is an backassward way of policing the sport.  Instead, their efforts should be to the now and to the future.  By this action, they have almost totally destroyed any hope that cycling will ever have of growing into a mature clean sport.  Cycling will be viewed as just a step above pro-wrestling and roller derby.

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(Marmotstew @ Oct. 11 2012, 8:23 am)
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I heard Lamebeaver injected eyebp in the butt with steroids before the 14er at pickle gulch. Just sayin'

Uh.....those weren't steroids.......  :O
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 12:32 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Granted most dope in every sport....I still think it's cheating.

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(RumiDude @ Oct. 11 2012, 12:18 pm)
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I have always stated that looking back and trying to sanction riders of the past is an backassward way of policing the sport.  Instead, their efforts should be to the now and to the future.  

This



Same thing with baseball, be like football and basketball,  we can't change the past, let it go and worry about the present and future.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 12:53 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Personally, I believe he doped.
That being said, I don't believe Lance was given due process in the USADA investigation.  The methods they used to claim his guilt would not hold up in a courtroom.

But as other have said - it's a moot point.  He certainly wasn't competing against athletes that were training on bread and water.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 1:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Did any of you read the actual document?  I spent a bit of time reading it yesterday and a lot of the issues brought up are addressed there.

USADA outlines its case for why it has the authority to strip Lance's titles.  Not much I can say there, but they put it out there for all to see.

USADA outlines the reasoning for why the statute of limitations does not apply here.  Lance was actively preventing people from coming forward about this for YEARS (going back at least to his cancer treatment days).

As I read it, this didn't become a witch hunt until Lance refused to come forward with the others about what happened.  It seems the original investigation was about the US Postal and Discovery Teams and the way they avoided getting caught.  Lance refused to cooperate with the investigation, so they went on without him and skewered him in the process.

He did have at least one positive test result for steroids many years ago and the team managed to fabricate the steroid cream story.

The report is especially damning of the UCI and its efforts to actively overlook Lance's transgressions, because he was their poster boy for increasing participation and revenue in the US.

The 200 page report is the summary version.  

I didn't have any delusions about him doping before, but I was in the camp of leaving him alone because it happened so long ago.  After reading parts of the report yesterday, I've changed my mind.  Most of the report was about HOW it was done.  It details smuggling operations and how the actual doping was hidden from investigators.  I think it's very informative - if we want to prevent it in the future, we need to know how it was done in the past.


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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:17 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, the USADA CEO disagrees:
"Tygart [USADA CEO] said UCI was "bound to recognize our decision and impose it" as a signer of the World Anti-Doping Code.

"They have no choice but to strip the titles under the code," he said."

If the UCI has to "impose" and strip the titles then the USADA didn't have that authority did it? Which has been UCI's position all along in this matter. Simple institutional over reach or a bitter agenda? hard to say.

The Olympics committee has responded similarly.

I'd still prefer lab results over hearsay.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:30 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

If I was Lance, I'd tell them all to piss off and get on with my life.  What a bunch of miserable bastards the USADA are.
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(scroat @ Oct. 11 2012, 2:30 pm)
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If I was Lance, I'd tell them all to piss off and get on with my life.  

I think that's what he did.
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:36 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

According to the report he insisted that teammates dope to help him win.  He's an arrogant SOB and he got what he deserved.  There are also some pretty serious allegations that he used funds from his charities for personal profit.

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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 11 2012, 2:51 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Doping, meh
Embezzlement, not so much
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(Talus. @ Oct. 11 2012, 11:36 am)
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According to the report he insisted that teammates dope to help him win.  He's an arrogant SOB and he got what he deserved.  There are also some pretty serious allegations that he used funds from his charities for personal profit.

And none of them (teammates) ever failed a test as well.

Yet many, many others DID fail the very same tests.

I find that questionable.
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