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| Post Number: 1
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TDale 
Group: Members
Posts: 13106
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 6:18 pm |
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I don't think people are made like this anymore.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history....th.html
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"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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| Post Number: 2
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CharlesTheHammer
Group: Members
Posts: 241
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 6:55 pm |
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Thats pretty incredible, and its also some odd looking shrapnel! Usually shrapnel is just jagged, randomly shaped pieces of metal, but this looks like hardware that you'd find in Lowes! There's screws, cotter pins, pieces of what looks like wire, etc. Maybe the Germans had grown desperate and were making IED's, and filling them with whatever they had handy to use as shrapnel, otherwise, I dont get it.... But thats the kind of thing thats being done in Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Africa, and was happening in Iraq. So maybe the Germans invented the modern IED. Gee thanks guys!
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EastieTrekker
Group: Members
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 7:17 pm |
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WOW!!!!! That's an incredible story.
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I request all the possible consumer protection organizations, and fight with their injustice. 
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CharlesTheHammer
Group: Members
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 9:15 pm |
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(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 19 2012, 9:04 pm)
QUOTE
(TDale @ Oct. 19 2012, 4:18 pm)
QUOTE I don't think people are made like this anymore. Actually, I think if the 18-20 year old "kids" of today were faced with a similar situation, they would rise to the challenge, just as their grandparents or great grand parents did. And I pray that they are never called on to make that sacrifice.
I think many from the midwest and from the south, from Alaska, and maybe some from the east and west coast would. The values have changed, just look at TV these days! Can you imagine how that WW2 generation would reacted to much of today's "entertainment"?
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| Post Number: 6
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reubenstump
Los Cuernos
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 9:15 pm |
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Agree.
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ol-zeke
me in the Tetons
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Posts: 10771
Joined: Sep. 2002
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 10:05 pm |
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Keep in mind, the average age of our soldiers in WW2 was about 26-27. Viet Nam was fought by 19-22 yr olds, mostly. We went to a larger standing army made up of younger men and women.
I am not saying this to disparage what those who fought in WW2 did, but to show that when you rely on younger and younger soldiers, sometimes they make errors of judgement that an older soldier would not.
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Everything I know, I learned by doing it wrong at least twice.
The easiest way to ruin a Friday is to realize it is only Tuesday.
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| Post Number: 8
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Drake
Group: Members
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 10:13 pm |
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People aren't made like this anymore? Really?
Look around.
And stop this Greatest Generation crap. There is no Greatest Generation, never has been. In my view anybody who subscribes to such a view without a very careful inspection of history, all of it, and a thoughtful consideration of the true innate nature of human beings is a moron.
Sheesh. Greatest Generation. What a load. Think it through. We ain't done having to be heroes yet, none of us, and there are millions of heroes, some of 'em a lot younger than you, walking on your own sidewalks.
Show the proper respect for all of 'em.
Greatest Generation? That's just ridiculous.
Drake
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Walkinman
A rainbow
Group: Members
Posts: 6611
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Posted on: Oct. 19 2012, 11:40 pm |
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+1 what Drake said.
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Guided Alaska backpacking and hiking trips
"What good is a used up world and how can it be worth having?" -- Sting, All This Time.
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| Post Number: 10
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wycanislatrans
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 11:27 am |
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I think the circumstances caused great charector in many from that generation. I would add that not only WW II but also the Great Depression shaped them.
Zeke's point of the age diff. is a good one, completely different mentality between those age groups. Having said that, what is the average age of todays officer?
I would agree that under similar circumstances the youth of today would rise to the same occasion. It should be noted that we fought two wars with a full volunteer army, no draft.
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| Post Number: 11
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VAN
Group: Members
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 3:51 pm |
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I think it is an incredible story.
I think the WWII generation was a great generation. I think the Vets from Vietnam were also great. Today's war generation is a mix of the previous 2, some coming home missing 2 limbs and with PTSD, and most coming home to no jobs and communities that have forgotten them.
This isn't a soapbox rant, it's my life. I've been a Navy wife for 8 years.
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"Long you live and high you fly. And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry. And all you touch and all you see, is all your life will ever be." -Pink Floyd
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| Post Number: 12
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double cabin
Group: Members
Posts: 15398
Joined: Nov. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 4:23 pm |
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(Drake @ Oct. 19 2012, 10:13 pm)
QUOTE People aren't made like this anymore? Really?
Look around.
And stop this Greatest Generation crap. There is no Greatest Generation, never has been. In my view anybody who subscribes to such a view without a very careful inspection of history, all of it, and a thoughtful consideration of the true innate nature of human beings is a moron.
Sheesh. Greatest Generation. What a load. Think it through. We ain't done having to be heroes yet, none of us, and there are millions of heroes, some of 'em a lot younger than you, walking on your own sidewalks.
Show the proper respect for all of 'em.
Greatest Generation? That's just ridiculous.
Drake
Steve, please feel free to delete this post if you feel its too political, but let the thread go on if you could. I don't know how to do this without being "political."
With all due respect Drake here is my take on that having volunteered for Veterans of all ages. Just observation and OPINION.
On the ranch we've hosted several veterans for free vacations for a foundation named after a former employee that was killed in Ramadi 8 and a half yearas ago. It seems most of the Afghanistan, Iraq Vets, still love to shoot their guns, quite amazing to me.
My father was in the Fighting 69th and after he died when I was 7 I was taken in by his younger brother that was a Forward Observer, Artillery Spotter for 9 straight months across Europe, the second worst [mortality rate] job in all of World War II. Neither man put their uniform back on after they came home, and neither ever talked about their experiences beyond the few moments of comic relief they had. They both killed a LOT of Germans, my father very well may have killed some Russians when they met them at Torgau. They rose to the occasion, and demanded nothing for their sacrifice.
I've worked with many Vietnam Vets. Very few of them talk about the experience either.
I am grateful to today's young veterans, but I'm not going to elevate the level of their sacrifice to that of "The Greatest Generation Ever." Whether American, Russian, British, etc., those heroes did nothing less than save the world from SERIOUS, credible threats. Afghanistan and Iraq are/were horrible OCCUPATIONS, NOT WARS. In the last decade our forces in Iraq very rarely sought out the enemy let alone on a daily basis like our forces did in Vietnam, WW II, or Korea. The greatest sadness of these occupations is that 4 out of 5 of our fatalities came at anonymous hands, IED's, roadside bombs. Since this President refocused on the people that actually attacked us in Afghanistan there has been more of a search and destroy mentality, but it still pales in significance compared to a conflcit that killed 50 million people. Korea was horrible too, look up the Chosin Resevoir. Heartbreaking to put it lightly. Imagine being in Vietnam during Tet. However harsh Falujah, Ramadi, etc., were, they were nothing by comparrison.
A few years back they did a survey and the vast majority of those polled that were under 30 years old stated they felt 9/11 was the most tragic event in human history. As much as it is natural to consider current things more than those of the past this demonstrates nothing less than a complete failure to teach younger generations history. Imagine Dresden, Tokyo, etc. This world was in REAL danger of destruction.
So with all due respect to Drake and others I ask all our friends to revere all Veterans, but never forget the level of sacrifice of our men and women in WW II, Korea, or Vietnam. Today's conflicts simply do not begin to compare.
Peace,
John
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
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| Post Number: 13
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no_granola
minor deity
Group: Members
Posts: 12546
Joined: Dec. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 6:43 pm |
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(double cabin @ Oct. 21 2012, 4:23 pm)
QUOTE
(Drake @ Oct. 19 2012, 10:13 pm)
QUOTE People aren't made like this anymore? Really?
Look around.
And stop this Greatest Generation crap. There is no Greatest Generation, never has been. In my view anybody who subscribes to such a view without a very careful inspection of history, all of it, and a thoughtful consideration of the true innate nature of human beings is a moron.
Sheesh. Greatest Generation. What a load. Think it through. We ain't done having to be heroes yet, none of us, and there are millions of heroes, some of 'em a lot younger than you, walking on your own sidewalks.
Show the proper respect for all of 'em.
Greatest Generation? That's just ridiculous.
Drake Steve, please feel free to delete this post if you feel its too political, but let the thread go on if you could. I don't know how to do this without being "political." With all due respect Drake here is my take on that having volunteered for Veterans of all ages. Just observation and OPINION. On the ranch we've hosted several veterans for free vacations for a foundation named after a former employee that was killed in Ramadi 8 and a half yearas ago. It seems most of the Afghanistan, Iraq Vets, still love to shoot their guns, quite amazing to me. My father was in the Fighting 69th and after he died when I was 7 I was taken in by his younger brother that was a Forward Observer, Artillery Spotter for 9 straight months across Europe, the second worst [mortality rate] job in all of World War II. Neither man put their uniform back on after they came home, and neither ever talked about their experiences beyond the few moments of comic relief they had. They both killed a LOT of Germans, my father very well may have killed some Russians when they met them at Torgau. They rose to the occasion, and demanded nothing for their sacrifice. I've worked with many Vietnam Vets. Very few of them talk about the experience either. I am grateful to today's young veterans, but I'm not going to elevate the level of their sacrifice to that of "The Greatest Generation Ever." Whether American, Russian, British, etc., those heroes did nothing less than save the world from SERIOUS, credible threats. Afghanistan and Iraq are/were horrible OCCUPATIONS, NOT WARS. In the last decade our forces in Iraq very rarely sought out the enemy let alone on a daily basis like our forces did in Vietnam, WW II, or Korea. The greatest sadness of these occupations is that 4 out of 5 of our fatalities came at anonymous hands, IED's, roadside bombs. Since this President refocused on the people that actually attacked us in Afghanistan there has been more of a search and destroy mentality, but it still pales in significance compared to a conflcit that killed 50 million people. Korea was horrible too, look up the Chosin Resevoir. Heartbreaking to put it lightly. Imagine being in Vietnam during Tet. However harsh Falujah, Ramadi, etc., were, they were nothing by comparrison. A few years back they did a survey and the vast majority of those polled that were under 30 years old stated they felt 9/11 was the most tragic event in human history. As much as it is natural to consider current things more than those of the past this demonstrates nothing less than a complete failure to teach younger generations history. Imagine Dresden, Tokyo, etc. This world was in REAL danger of destruction. So with all due respect to Drake and others I ask all our friends to revere all Veterans, but never forget the level of sacrifice of our men and women in WW II, Korea, or Vietnam. Today's conflicts simply do not begin to compare. Peace, John
Sorry John, but that's sentimental/nostalgic rubbish. The 'wars' definitely have different motivation/purpose. But for the troops on the ground it's the same. Your romantic/idyllic view of your father and uncle and the roles they played doesn't change that.
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The difference between people who think for themselves and those that follow the herd is that thinking people aren't afraid of reality.
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| Post Number: 14
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double cabin
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 7:03 pm |
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With all due respect NG on the ground in Iraq is infintely different than in Vietnam. One is a desert, the other a jungle. Our kill ratio in Vietnam was more than 20 to 1 but we still "lost." NOT EVEN close to "the same." Our troops in Iraq did not seek out and destroy any enemy with any regularity. Research the Chosin Resevoir or any of the other truly horrific historical battles and tell me its still the same. If you do you're in denial. We lost nearly a half million troops in World War II, the Soviets lost by some estimates nearly 30 million people. OCCUPATIONS ARE NOT WARS.
On the ground in the 21st Century isn't remotely similar to what it was through 3/4 of the 20th Century. Suggest it is to some guy that went on Utah or Omaha Beaches and they'll likely just smile at you for as much as they know better gloating is not the way of many of them. I wish you could have told that to my Uncle that got shot at in his kites and gliders by Messerschmidts.
For those of us too young to appreciate the differences between then and now I suggest you watch among other things HBO's "Band of Brothers" or "The Pacific."
Iraq and Afghanistan have never had anything remotely close to Iwo Jima, etc.
Call it sentimental if you wish, I call it realistic. Modern Warfare for this country is for the most part carried out in dark rooms at places like Falcon or Schriever Air Force Bases guiding bombs on the other side of the world. I respect those men and women for the tough jobs they had/have, but if you think that or going on Patrol in Bagdad is anything like Hamburger Hill with all due respect and IMO you're crazy.
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We have nothing to fear but an industry of fear...and man skirts.
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| Post Number: 15
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BradMT
Group: Members
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Posted on: Oct. 21 2012, 7:17 pm |
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+1 x 100 with DC's thought's... that's not to say that today's warriors are not up to the tasks of their forefathers, just that today's conflicts really don't rise to the level of anything prior to Korea.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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TDale
Group: Members
Posts: 13106
Joined: Jun. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 3:25 am |
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(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 21 2012, 8:00 pm)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Oct. 21 2012, 5:17 pm)
QUOTE +1 x 100 with DC's thought's... that's not to say that today's warriors are not up to the tasks of their forefathers, just that today's conflicts really don't rise to the level of anything prior to Korea. And lets hope and pray that we never ask our young soldiers to make that kind of sacrifice again.
Amen
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"Sure as I know anything, I know this - they will try again...They'll swing back to the belief that they can make people... better. And I do not hold to that. So no more runnin'. I aim to misbehave."
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| Post Number: 18
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BradMT
Group: Members
Posts: 3407
Joined: May 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 7:51 am |
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(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 21 2012, 6:00 pm)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Oct. 21 2012, 5:17 pm)
QUOTE +1 x 100 with DC's thought's... that's not to say that today's warriors are not up to the tasks of their forefathers, just that today's conflicts really don't rise to the level of anything prior to Korea. And lets hope and pray that we never ask our young soldiers to make that kind of sacrifice again.
We are asking it every day. And their sacrifice is for essentially nothing which saddens and angers me to no end.
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Contentment is natural wealth, luxury is artificial poverty. – Socrates
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| Post Number: 19
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Deborah
Deborah - 18 months
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Posted on: Oct. 22 2012, 8:04 am |
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(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 21 2012, 6:00 pm)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Oct. 21 2012, 5:17 pm)
QUOTE +1 x 100 with DC's thought's... that's not to say that today's warriors are not up to the tasks of their forefathers, just that today's conflicts really don't rise to the level of anything prior to Korea. And lets hope and pray that we never ask our young soldiers to make that kind of sacrifice again.
Tell the soldier who got hit by an IED and lost both legs and both arms that he did not make a sacrifice and see how far you get.
The stuff that is going on now is just insane.
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“What we need is production by the masses, not mass-production” Gandhi
“The hardest thing in life is to know which bridge to cross and which to burn” David Russell
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mtngrl
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 1:26 pm |
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We owe our gratitude to any soldiers who serve in any war or occupancy. Our soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq or South Korea would be willing in a second to do whatever was asked of them, if called to that duty. I bet there were many soldiers in Korea or WWII who did not see the really bad action, but they were there and were ready to get into the thick of it if called to do that. I thank those soldiers, too. We have seen many acts of bravery from our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, life on the line actions to save fellow soldiers, even if these are not wars, only occupations. Hooray for ALL of our soldiers!
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“He who knows the most, he who knows what sweets and virtues are in the ground, the waters, the plants, the heavens and how to come at these enchantments, is the rich and royal man” -- from Nature, by Ralph Waldo Emerson
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| Post Number: 21
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tomas
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 1:30 pm |
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n/m
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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| Post Number: 22
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no_granola
minor deity
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Posts: 12546
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 2:17 pm |
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(Deborah @ Oct. 22 2012, 8:04 am)
QUOTE
(Lamebeaver @ Oct. 21 2012, 6:00 pm)
QUOTE
(BradMT @ Oct. 21 2012, 5:17 pm)
QUOTE +1 x 100 with DC's thought's... that's not to say that today's warriors are not up to the tasks of their forefathers, just that today's conflicts really don't rise to the level of anything prior to Korea. And lets hope and pray that we never ask our young soldiers to make that kind of sacrifice again. Tell the soldier who got hit by an IED and lost both legs and both arms that he did not make a sacrifice and see how far you get. The stuff that is going on now is just insane.
I agree with you that it is no less horrific and the sacrifices of today's ground troops are no less significant.
The volume and scale of the conflicts of yore is unrivaled, but that doesn't make those soldiers somehow better or those human's somehow superior.
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The difference between people who think for themselves and those that follow the herd is that thinking people aren't afraid of reality.
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| Post Number: 23
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ScotH
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Posted on: Oct. 23 2012, 6:21 pm |
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They all deserve our respect for their service! We all relate to our own experiences and influences. My Father was a WWII veteran and saw horrific combat and would never talk about any of it. He was awarded three Purple Hearts and spent time in two POW camps. The experience drove him inward.
I say lets stay the hell out of wars and keep our young people healthy and safe!
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