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Topic: You had fair warning...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 61
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 05 2012, 6:44 pm  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(High_Sierra_Fan @ Nov. 05 2012, 6:24 pm)
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As long as abuses are kept rare by correct procedures (and that's always evolving to better and better eliminate the scammers) that a very few might be able to scam the system is far preferable to eliminating the deserving of their neighbor's help (through their government's action) in some hapless pursuit of "the perfect".

I haven't seen any scamming for government help so far.  The only direct aid being provided in my area is the distribution of water (most local water systems are still out) and an almost neglible number of free meals (most of which are going to disabled people displaced from care facilities).

I give my township government a big thumbs-up for blowing off the power company and hiring local businesses to clear out as much debris as possible to make way for emergency vehicles and (in theory) speed up restoration. There will be a price to pay, but I hope my fellow citizens will bear it gracefully.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 05 2012, 8:22 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It's been a fun day at the office, but I can't postpone going home much longer.  I think I achieved my primary goal, which is to not need any more lake water until tomorrow.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 05 2012, 8:25 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Nov. 05 2012, 5:22 pm)
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It's been a fun day at the office, but I can't postpone going home much longer.  I think I achieved my primary goal, which is to not need any more lake water until tomorrow.

This close to Oversharing.

Yeah my post was a response to http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin....2270144
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 05 2012, 10:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Nov. 05 2012, 8:22 pm)
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 I think I achieved my primary goal, which is to not need any more lake water until tomorrow.

It sure is amazing on just how much water is needed just to keep the flush toilets flushing.  Had two water pipes burst a couple of years ago when we had a freak cold spell.  It took close to a week before the pipes thawed out and I could find the breaks and fix the sections. I have a thirty gallon container that I always keep some backup water in, went through that fast. I had to get water in five gallon containers from family every couple of days just for the toilets.   I feel your pain, best to you.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Can someone explain to me why your toilets won't flush during a power outage? Well water, I understand... no power to pump it out of the well. But municipal water?

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 9:15 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 am)
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Can someone explain to me why your toilets won't flush during a power outage? Well water, I understand... no power to pump it out of the well. But municipal water?

Got to have power to pump the rooftop tanks full?

I'm lucky, I live in an area that has back up power for both the water and sewer systems. Still had water when we lost power after Ike.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 9:16 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Municipal systems use electric pumps as well.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:06 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 am)
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Can someone explain to me why your toilets won't flush during a power outage? Well water, I understand... no power to pump it out of the well. But municipal water?

Mine always flushed.  Even after some of the big ones that left us with no power for a week .  Now I live on a tidal flow river so that is not a problem.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 11:45 am Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 6:16 am)
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Municipal systems use electric pumps as well.

And not to main pressures that will flow up 50 stories or more.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 12:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 9:04 am)
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Can someone explain to me why your toilets won't flush during a power outage? Well water, I understand... no power to pump it out of the well. But municipal water?

Most municipal water supplies in my county come from wells. That's true for neighboring counties as well.  The big surface water reservoirs a little further east are owned by the urban areas, a condition we share with many upstate New Yorkers.

Besides coming up from wells,  water in the nearby towns has to go up a couple hundred feet from the well sites to most homes.  

We may get power between Wednesday and Saturday, but JCP&L's estimated restorations by day do not appear to factor in lost time from the coming storm, so next week seems more likely.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 12:16 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

big_load – I hope they get power to you sooner then latter, I usually take electricity and water almost for granted, hard when there is a breakdown.  It is good to here that you are managing and all.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 12:23 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks all. Our water comes from massive reservoirs that are around 1,500' above the municipalities. Maybe that's why we don't have this issue.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 12:24 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

It hasn't been too bad.  For the first time in weeks, there were no clouds this morning, so the dawn was like a rebirth.  I reheated some pancakes I cooked on Saturday and made some coffee I ground before the storm.  It was quite satisfying.  However, I still can't get over the habit of flicking the light switch when I enter a room.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Well, call me a meanie, but rather than proving anyone such as Romney correct, I think this chalks up another point toward natural selection...

Many of the problems we see today are because our government and our technology have thwarted Mother Nature's natural way of "adding a bit of chlorine to the gene pool."
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 2:43 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm)
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Well, call me a meanie, but rather than proving anyone such as Romney correct, I think this chalks up another point toward natural selection...

Do you  have some specific examples of people you think deserved to die?
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 2:47 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:43 pm)
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(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm)
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Well, call me a meanie, but rather than proving anyone such as Romney correct, I think this chalks up another point toward natural selection...

Do you  have some specific examples of people you think deserved to die?

Ask Bass. He has a rather extensive list.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 3:01 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm)
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any of the problems we see today are because our government and our technology have thwarted Mother Nature's natural way of "adding a bit of chlorine to the gene pool."

He types from the comfort of his climate controlled home...

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 3:06 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(tomas @ Nov. 06 2012, 12:01 pm)
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(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm)
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any of the problems we see today are because our government and our technology have thwarted Mother Nature's natural way of "adding a bit of chlorine to the gene pool."

He types from the comfort of his climate controlled home...

To be fair basements are often naturally climate controlled. Now the dumbwaiter so mom doesn't have to descend the stairs to deliver snacks: that's exceptional!
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 3:10 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 11:39 am)
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Well, call me a meanie, but rather than proving anyone such as Romney correct, I think this chalks up another point toward natural selection...

Many of the problems we see today are because our government and our technology have thwarted Mother Nature's natural way of "adding a bit of chlorine to the gene pool."

Wonder who the puppet master is.  First post since May of '09. and this is the topic he chooses to chime in on?  


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 3:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(HighGravity @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:47 pm)
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(big_load @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:43 pm)
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(LarryK69 @ Nov. 06 2012, 2:39 pm)
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Well, call me a meanie, but rather than proving anyone such as Romney correct, I think this chalks up another point toward natural selection...

Do you  have some specific examples of people you think deserved to die?

Ask Bass. He has a rather extensive list.

Did it include the fireman who died saving his own family?
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 3:28 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Not sure. He seems to be more into annihilating entire countries. Or rather, asking someone else to do it for him, from a distance.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 4:05 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 12:23 pm)
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Thanks all. Our water comes from massive reservoirs that are around 1,500' above the municipalities. Maybe that's why we don't have this issue.

I would have thought you'd be getting your water from the lake up that way.

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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 7:55 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(big_load @ Nov. 06 2012, 12:11 pm)
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We may get power between Wednesday and Saturday, but JCP&L's estimated restorations by day do not appear to factor in lost time from the coming storm, so next week seems more likely.

New estimates:  none of the restorations projected for our area today actually happened.  That number was split into two pieces and put on the next two days, and all the restorations originally estimated for tomorrow and beyond were pushed into next week.   The coming storm could delay that even more.

I pretty much expected this would happen when somebody finally got here to take a look at the real situation.  Still, I'm a little disappointed.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 06 2012, 9:03 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE


(WalksWithBlackflies @ Nov. 06 2012, 11:23 am)
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Thanks all. Our water comes from massive reservoirs that are around 1,500' above the municipalities. Maybe that's why we don't have this issue.

While you may have gravity getting your water to your house, almost all sewage pumped to the treatment plants by electric pumps. Not fun when you and your neighbors finally fill up the sewer lines.
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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 14 2012, 7:11 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Now that people have had time to reflect on Sandy, Yahoo provided this story today.  Read this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/does-people-flee-storm-200229283.html

What does it take to get people to flee a storm?

Some interesting reader comments at that link I'll comment on.

kf  •   What does it take to get people to flee a storm? That's easy. 1. They have to believe there is a need to do so. 2. They have to be physically and financially able to flee. And 3. they need someplace to flee to. In Sandy, people stayed because they didn't believe there was a need to flee or they were unable to do so because of physical or financial constraints. This is why some people who could have fled, stayed in their homes, and this is also why we still found old people left alone in high rises with no water, lights, or heat.

Yankee Doodle  •   For people to flee they need a way to flee (transportation), a place to flee to (shelter), and food/water. So unless you have shelters to house people, buses to get them there, and enough food/water to sustain them you must expect people to stay in their homes. Not everybody has family, cars, money, and other resources needed to flee. They need to stop people from building homes in potential flood regions.

Dave >>>  One of the problems with authorities and their politicians in such areas is they often do not have such plans in place before storms or the public has little awareness of any planning.  Part of the reason is that business interests like commercial development and real estate do not want to be scaring people away from coastal areas so tend to keep publicly quiet any discussion so that residents are left to their own means to flee and cope.  But it is those same people that vote for those politicians so there is blame to go around at both ends.  It is thus more a broader societal failure.

Deborah  •   The severity of the storm was clear, warnings were issued for days as it was coming in. People should have listened and evacuated if they could. I have a feeling that most folks just didn't think it through - storm, storm surge, flooding, no power, no power means no food, water, heat, lights, flushing toilets....

Dave >>>  Authorites should not be surprised that a fair number people did not leave because one ought not expect the many who do not understand weather, much less historic storms, to suddenly understand or believe what they are hearing from the media even if such is in plain English and logical.  The wiser approach is to make such disaster preparedness an ungoing annual matter of media and government discussion in coastal regions so everyone has time to understand what they need to do, how they might do so, and where.

larry n  •   Remember this was New York and the old adage is You can always tell a New Yorker but you can not tell them very much.

Dave >>> There are of course many foolish personalities whose knee jerk reaction given some abrupt disaster warning is always going to be one of stubborness rejecting what they hear or not listening.  Again the way to bring such people aboard is to give them time to consider the issues and think about what THEY want to do.

Al  •  People are more comfortable in their environment, in their homes, and, they never expect the worse to happen to them. You cannot really blame them for that because that is just human nature.

Meat  •   If Katrina taught us anything, it's that there are people who will not leave, no matter how dire the warnings or how much time they have to evacuate. I was on vacation in a different area of the country, and I knew at least 5 days before Katrina hit that the Gulf Coast was not a place I or anyone else should go near...

Dave >>> Well we can educate them to not react so.   These are the same people one sees in science fiction movies that stop dumbfounded gawking mouth agape at some horrible monster approaching and unlike everyone else running away down some street just stand there frozen in fear.   Called the flee or flight response and is animal nature.  The monster gets to them, grabs them in their jaws, shakes back and forth, then swallows.   Happened for real on videos of the Malaysian tsunami with people gawking stupidfied from the beach while others ran.

Robert  •   People keep posting on here about having no money or vehicle to flee in ...... a large number of those who stayed during Sandy were middle class people who had the means , money and several days notice and for whatever reason didnt leave.

Dave >>> Indeed coastal regions tend to be expensive near because lots of people want to live there.   So yeah though there were some poor and elderly folks that stayed due to limitations, many more of the people that did not evacuate did not have such excuses.


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PostIcon Posted on: Nov. 14 2012, 10:02 pm Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

This may sound callous, but with landfall in the most densely populated state in the country and heavy impact on the most densely populated city, the rate of casualties was pretty low, in part because (at least in NJ) compliance was fairly good for the mandatory evacuations.

A larger question becomes how many people outside the mandatory areas  should have left?  20M?  30M?  50M?  Large portions of Pennsylvania and even Ohio were also without power for over a week.  Who is going to even report the outages to make sure they all get fixed if no one is there (and that was indeed a problem near us; recovery was slowed because there wasn't adequate house-by-house information about the nature of outages).  Also, how much longer are we willing to drag out the recovery by having more businesses closed for a longer period?  I think there should be more focus on protecting critical infrastructure and improved recovery plans.  Instead, what we're going to have as yet another big surcharge for rebuilding the electric system the same vulnerable way it was rebuilt the last time and the time before that.
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